Political Discussion Thread of DOOM!

[MixedMyth]

what if the person is found guilty at the time but later found innocent? Doesn't do them much good when their dead. This may seem far fetched, but it does happen.

Has it been proven since the death penalty was reinstated in the US that an innocent person was exectued? Please cite examples if this is the case.

Mm. The problem is often that courts won't hear them, since they're finished. However, I can recommend looking through The Innocent Project. I'll look for specific cases, but it could take some time.

[LAGtheNoggin]

(dibs on buttsex as our next debate!)

http://www.machall.com/index.php?strip_id=191
http://www.machall.com/index.php?strip_id=192

Too late.

While that is indeed a realistic artistic impression of any impending debate (and where I garnerd the use of the word 'buttsex') I was thinking more along the lines of whether it is morally correct.

Buttsex. One way road or the stairway to heaven? Debate!

Mebbe'.

[MixedMyth]

Ah! Here we go...specifically, this site.

The best example being this-

"Gary Graham Texas Convicted 1981 Executed 2000
On June 23, 2000, Gary Graham was executed in Texas, despite claims that he was innocent. Graham was 17 when he was charged with the 1981 robbery and shooting of Bobby Lambert outside a Houston supermarket. He was convicted primarily on the testimony of one witness, Bernadine Skillern, who said she saw the killer's face for a few seconds through her car windshield, from a distance of 30 -40 feet away. Two other witnesses, both who worked at the grocery store and said they got a good look at the assailant, said Graham was not the killer but were never interviewed by Graham's court appointed attorney, Ronald Mock, and were not called to testify at trial. Three of the jurors who voted to convict Graham signed affidavits saying they would have voted differently had all of the evidence been available."

[ZOMBIE USER 16849]

I haen't kept on this thread since I made one post on the first page.

So I JUST saw this:

I like rednecks sometimes to laugh at, but why would you want one as a president? (besides the fact that although he's an idiot, he's the smarter of your candidates... )

No offense good sir, but you've just offended the hell out of me you ignorant twit.

But seriously, I grew up in the deep south (in a variety of places), I somewhat have a southern accent, and, like the general redneck, my skin gets a nice, unhealthy shade of red after a day in the sun.

So are you saying I can't be president? Hmm?

[Sippan]

First, I'd like to say that the American justice system is ridiculous. It's about everything BUT wether you are guilty or not. If you don't have any money, you're fucked.

Second, why is it that an overwhelming majority of prisoners on death row are black? No matter how much you don't want to admit it, racism and prejudices are still deeply rooted in America.

And third, there are PLENTY of things to do to stop murders that don't include murdering someone yourself. I saw an episode of Dr Phil (which I, for the record, normally avoid because I hate that guy) where he put a gun in a room full of kids and said "don't touch this", then left. THE MAJORITY OF THE PARENTS THOUGHT THEIR CHILDREN WOULD NOT TOUCH IT.

WAKE UP!!!

American children are raised in an environment of guns, indoctrinated with innumerable TV shows and toys with guns, and before they're even old enough to vote they can get their hands on a gun. Oh gee, I wonder why people get shot. Hmm, let's see - what should we do? Take away the guns perhaps? Nahh...I like my gun, let's kill the murderers instead.

[Paraskeva]

Second, why is it that an overwhelming majority of prisoners on death row are black? No matter how much you don't want to admit it, racism and prejudices are still deeply rooted in America.

And third, there are PLENTY of things to do to stop murders that don't include murdering someone yourself. I saw an episode of Dr Phil (which I, for the record, normally avoid because I hate that guy) where he put a gun in a room full of kids and said "don't touch this", then left. THE MAJORITY OF THE PARENTS THOUGHT THEIR CHILDREN WOULD NOT TOUCH IT.

WAKE UP!!!

American children are raised in an environment of guns, indoctrinated with innumerable TV shows and toys with guns, and before they're even old enough to vote they can get their hands on a gun. Oh gee, I wonder why people get shot. Hmm, let's see - what should we do? Take away the guns perhaps? Nahh...I like my gun, let's kill the murderers instead.

Hey, I agree...but you know Canadian/American Africans have been dealing with a lot of problems since the American civil war and the War of 1812 before that...For example, there is the case of the residents of a place called Africville in Halifax, Nova Scotia; They owned that land for 150 yrs, and the Halifax city council goes and tells them to pack up and leave: they can't do anything, they can't pay for lawyers, and they had been considered a slum area for years. That's because the Halifax council wouldn't provide them with running water, moved the city dump 550 m from their site, and never policed the area, even after being petitioned several times to do so; poverty and racial slandering pushed some otherwise good people into marginility. And that was back in 1967.

As for the desensitization of kids, it begins with the parents. Parents seem to have this funny rationalization these days that they should be their kids "friends" instead of disciplinaries. Of course, you should be supportive of your child, but not to the point where they don't listen to you anymore as a role model...the next best thing they turn to is the TV, societal values of today ("accept everything!") and the media picture of a traditional family being split apart at the seams where the parents merely try to placate their discontented, "maladjusted" children. Unfortunately, too many people swallow that these days.

[McDuffies]

Murder will never go away, but if killing 10,000 murderers stops one person from being shot because the would-be shooter decides it's not worth the risk, then it's worth it.

I didn't read through the entire discussion and I might be popping in, I hope I misunderstood you.
Otherwise, you should be ashamed of yourself for your opinions.
Be a citizent of hiroshima and have a bomb dropped on your head and then say: "It's all right that I died, because it will probably stop some killings".
It's easy to say such things sitting comfortably in your chair, without ever being threatened with your life, watching violence only on tv.

[Warren]

First, I'd like to say that the American justice system is ridiculous. It's about everything BUT wether you are guilty or not. If you don't have any money, you're fucked.

You don't live here. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Second, why is it that an overwhelming majority of prisoners on death row are black? No matter how much you don't want to admit it, racism and prejudices are still deeply rooted in America.

No question about the prisoners being black. But murders are committed by a disproportionate number of black people in this country. And racism is still deeply rooted everywhere, so you have no idea what you're talking about.

And third, there are PLENTY of things to do to stop murders that don't include murdering someone yourself. I saw an episode of Dr Phil (which I, for the record, normally avoid because I hate that guy) where he put a gun in a room full of kids and said "don't touch this", then left. THE MAJORITY OF THE PARENTS THOUGHT THEIR CHILDREN WOULD NOT TOUCH IT.

Were the children murderers? What are you talking about? This shows guns should be locked away, or not in a house with children. It was more about gun accidents, not murder. You so missed the point.

American children are raised in an environment of guns, indoctrinated with innumerable TV shows and toys with guns, and before they're even old enough to vote they can get their hands on a gun. Oh gee, I wonder why people get shot. Hmm, let's see - what should we do? Take away the guns perhaps? Nahh...I like my gun, let's kill the murderers instead.

Nice to know Sweeden doesn't ever have any murders. That is the point you're obviously trying to make, saying American children are raised in a violent culture, right?

[Sippan]

First, I'd like to say that the American justice system is ridiculous. It's about everything BUT wether you are guilty or not. If you don't have any money, you're fucked.

You don't live here. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Second, why is it that an overwhelming majority of prisoners on death row are black? No matter how much you don't want to admit it, racism and prejudices are still deeply rooted in America.

No question about the prisoners being black. But murders are committed by a disproportionate number of black people in this country. And racism is still deeply rooted everywhere, so you have no idea what you're talking about.

And third, there are PLENTY of things to do to stop murders that don't include murdering someone yourself. I saw an episode of Dr Phil (which I, for the record, normally avoid because I hate that guy) where he put a gun in a room full of kids and said "don't touch this", then left. THE MAJORITY OF THE PARENTS THOUGHT THEIR CHILDREN WOULD NOT TOUCH IT.

Were the children murderers? What are you talking about? This shows guns should be locked away, or not in a house with children. It was more about gun accidents, not murder. You so missed the point.

American children are raised in an environment of guns, indoctrinated with innumerable TV shows and toys with guns, and before they're even old enough to vote they can get their hands on a gun. Oh gee, I wonder why people get shot. Hmm, let's see - what should we do? Take away the guns perhaps? Nahh...I like my gun, let's kill the murderers instead.

Nice to know Sweeden doesn't ever have any murders. That is the point you're obviously trying to make, saying American children are raised in a violent culture, right?

The point about guns is that it's a natural thing for children. They're not afraid of guns, like they should be. And they can get one if they feel like it, which they should not be able to.

About 100 murders occur in Sweden every year. We don't have capital punishment. We don't have guns. That's the difference - Swedish kids are raised to the same TV shows, but it is virtually impossible for them to actually acquire a gun. (We have hunting rifles and sports guns, but it's a damn long road before you get a license and are allowed to own one, and even then it's illegal to have it assembled and ready to fire - you need to remove critical parts and store in an entirely different place than the gun itself.)

[Warren]

The point about guns is that it's a natural thing for children. They're not afraid of guns, like they should be. And they can get one if they feel like it, which they should not be able to.

About 100 murders occur in Sweden every year. We don't have capital punishment. We don't have guns. That's the difference - Swedish kids are raised to the same TV shows, but it is virtually impossible for them to actually acquire a gun. (We have hunting rifles and sports guns, but it's a damn long road before you get a license and are allowed to own one, and even then it's illegal to have it assembled and ready to fire - you need to remove critical parts and store in an entirely different place than the gun itself.)

Children should be afraid of guns. Adults should have a healthy respect for them. They are powerful tools meant to provide food, to protect you and deter others, and in some configurations (mostly illegal) to kill as many people as possible.

But to blame guns for the differences in our cultures is simplistic. Why are there so many murders here? I don't know. But maybe it's:

1. The government using welfare as a substitute for a two parent family

2. Both parents working in order to have extra stuff, instead of getting by on one income

3. Parents being afraid to be parents instead of friends

4. People putting their own happiness above being part of a community

5. More choices on television shortening the attention span and making one "crave" excitement

6. Desensitation to violence

7. Overpopulation is "compelling" people to be more violent

Are any of these true? I don't know. Nobody does.

[Xmung]

as someone who doesn't live in the us i've been keeping a wide berth of this one. apart from what i pick up in the news, docos, tv shows, movies, comics and sesame st i have no idea of what goes on up there. however i will say that going on several years ago we had some whacko in tasmania (no, not eviljamie) take out a tourist spot full of people with his semi-automatic. prior to that there had been similar shootings at shopping centres and the like on a regular enough basis. but the tasmanian shooting was bad enough to get a very large number of guns banned in australia, especially the semi-automatic type. hasn't been a massacre since.

[Executor_Arthas]

Soap, I didn't mean rednecks like that. Rednecks in my opinion are Cledius the slack jawed yocale who marry their own sisters, and shoot black people for fun.

[Okie]

the slack jawed yocale

you mean masseterialy challenged...

heh.

[Luprand]

As a thought ... perhaps children don't fear guns for the same reason Alaskan wolves didn't fear humans at first?

Familiarity breeds contempt, after all.

--Sij

[ZOMBIE USER 16849]

Soap, I didn't mean rednecks like that. Rednecks in my opinion are Cledius the slack jawed yocale who marry their own sisters, and shoot black people for fun.

Well that's all well and good, but I have yet to hear about George Bush doing any of those things.

[Yeahduff]

In either case, the whole thing's an act. He's not just a regular rednecked slob watching Nascar and hunting with the boys. He's a rich kid, son of a president, originally from Connecticut, graduated from Yale, and has run businesses of varying successes. While he's not the smartest to hold the office (and not the dumbest evidentally: His dad reportedly had the lowest IQ of a US President), he's not some backwoods yokel either. But he wants everyone to think he is. His whole shtick is to be an anti-intellectual. His favorite philosopher is Jesus Christ, he doesn't use big words very often, doesn't read the papers, etc etc. For some reason this country has trouble electing intellectual types from northern states, so you'll find all the candidates pandering to an "everyman" sentiment, trying to sell the idea that they're "of the people." This is John Edwards appeal, growing up working class from the south and all, John Kerry pushes his military history to emphasize that he was just another grunt, blah blah blah blah blah.

This is why I really hate talking about politics in an election year. No one's talking about anything except the partys' spin, and someone's always got some distant historical fact that changes the tenor of the entire discussion. I got reasons to dislike Bush, but Kerry doesn't blow my skirt up either. In the end, the checks and balances of our government will likely keep the nation from falling apart for another four years, whether the guy I like gets in office or not. This isn't apathy, just frustration. The two party system leaves us stagnant, but I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing.

Why oh why did I post here.....?

[Sippan]

Either way, there are plenty of things to do to prevent murders that don't include murdering people yourself. Q.E.D.

[Luprand]

One of them, of course, is taking personal responsibility for your actions and your family and not blaming everything on the government. Q.E.D.

--Sij

[Sippan]

One of them, of course, is taking personal responsibility for your actions and your family and not blaming everything on the government. Q.E.D.

--Sij

Which means, blame everything on those that don't take personal responsibility for their actions; i.e. the Americans. Q.E.D.

[KittyKatBlack]

First, I'd like to say that the American justice system is ridiculous. It's about everything BUT wether you are guilty or not. If you don't have any money, you're fucked.

You don't live here. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I think Warren summed that one up nicely. I love how when an American tries to tell another country how to do things, we're being oppresive and stupid, but when someone else who's never even been here suddenly thinks they're an expert and can tell us everything we're doing wrong, it'suddenly ok.

Second, why is it that an overwhelming majority of prisoners on death row are black? No matter how much you don't want to admit it, racism and prejudices are still deeply rooted in America.

No question about the prisoners being black. But murders are committed by a disproportionate number of black people in this country. And racism is still deeply rooted everywhere, so you have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm not a racist, but I have lived in an area where there was a largly mixed group of races. I really HATE to say it, because it sounds so racist, but the plain fact is that Warren is right. There are a lot more black people on death row because there simply are more black people doing bad things. It sounds closeminded, and I've had friends that are african american and they can be some of the nicest people in the world. But there are just a lot that think they deserve the right to act out against 'the white man' and as such end up commiting crimes more or less as some sort of statement. It sounds silly, but I've lived in it, so I know. It also doesn't help that Rap music is mainly populated by black artists, and most of it is promoting violence, drugs and things like that. A lot of young african americans see these people as idols, because there's simply not much else for them to turn to.

And third, there are PLENTY of things to do to stop murders that don't include murdering someone yourself. I saw an episode of Dr Phil (which I, for the record, normally avoid because I hate that guy) where he put a gun in a room full of kids and said "don't touch this", then left. THE MAJORITY OF THE PARENTS THOUGHT THEIR CHILDREN WOULD NOT TOUCH IT.

Were the children murderers? What are you talking about? This shows guns should be locked away, or not in a house with children. It was more about gun accidents, not murder. You so missed the point.

American children are raised in an environment of guns, indoctrinated with innumerable TV shows and toys with guns, and before they're even old enough to vote they can get their hands on a gun. Oh gee, I wonder why people get shot. Hmm, let's see - what should we do? Take away the guns perhaps? Nahh...I like my gun, let's kill the murderers instead.

Nice to know Sweeden doesn't ever have any murders. That is the point you're obviously trying to make, saying American children are raised in a violent culture, right?

You act like guns are issued out to every person once they turn 10. I myself have never even touched a real gun before. They're not really as wide-spread as you'd think. Also, you have to remember that the US's population is much bigger than Sweden's (Which would explain why more people are killed.) and there are a LOT more people that hate us than they do you guys. We have more weapons in general mainly as a deterant, so we don't have the luxury of just 'getting rid of a lot of our guns.' Most guns that are used to kill people are illegally owned. Which means that it doesn't matter if you take them away, people are still going to find ways to get them regardless. And from what I see from that Dr. Phil thing, it looks like it's pointing out that a lot of parents seem to think that their children are a lot smarter than they really are. It also shows that a lot of parents don't teach thier kids that things like that can hurt you.


And people wonder why Americans find it so funny to make fun of other countries when we get this much flak from people that have never even been here before... at least WE make it pretty obvious we're just joking most of the time.