Chrono Cross, Calvinism and you

Pirate_wench · Post by **Pirate_wench** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 9:22 am

As far as trendy things go I usually run either 2-3 years ahead or a year behind the trend. This is the case with Chrono Cross. I was meandering around Walmart when I saw Chrono Cross at the shiny new price of $19.96 and decided to get it even though I have heard many negative and downright nasty things said about the ending of the game. Now I haven't finished the game and maybe the ending will answer the frustrations I have with the plotline. But given all the negative things I've heard about the ending - it ain't too likely.So, anyway, I'm at the beginning of the second disc and everybody's saying that Serge and his band are going to fight fate. Woe unto the writers of this game - don't they keep up with their philosophy reading?? Since the days of Calvin we have known that problems run rampant through the idea of predestination. Of course Calvin said that all actions are predetermined. The problem with this idea is that if all actions are predetermined then no action has meaning - whether it be accepting the salvation of God or drinking chocolate milk. You can not possibly direct your actions so they have no more meaning the the movements of a puppet on a string. So to get back to Chrono Cross - it is impossible to fight fate because if you accept fate as reality then all actions are in accordance with fate. Even fighting fate would be under the umbrella of fate. You can never move out of the circle. And maybe this is what the ending says - I don't know because I haven't gotten there yet. I'm sure that would be a disappointing ending. It certainly does take the steam out the thrill of victory. Like the game developers saying "Hey those 40+ hours you put into tricking fate were all for naught!"I don't know. This sort of thing is why I'm a hardline free will defender. huzzah,
Anita

Labgoat · Post by **Labgoat** » Mon Nov 26, 2001 10:00 am

Well, most people look to an ending for closure. In Chrono Cross, most of the closure comes about before the ending. Without going into details, all the plot points are resolved, with the exception of one. It's not that CC had a band ending, it was just kinda "Huh." It did have a lot of "fetch" quests, and I dislike that idea, in general. But, they were pretty good, and you got good stuff. As for fighting fate... you'll get that a bit further into the game. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">------------------
<A HREF="http://labgoats.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>http://labgoats.keenspace.com</A> - Fight, Megaman! For everlasting peace!

Pirate_wench · Post by **Pirate_wench** » Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:42 am

It's been my experience with rpgs that most of the plot points are resolved before the final fight and then the closure is found in the resolution of defeating a clearly defined enemy or saving the chick in distress or whatever. Did you use the chrono cross in the final battle? The ending without the chrono cross is rather bland. I have to say that I've never had a video game tell me that I could inseminate a whole planet before. Square gets into some weird philosophy at times. I think I'll cover philosophical trends in Square games in a post one of these days....Anita

Labgoat · Post by **Labgoat** » Sun Dec 02, 2001 12:45 pm

I did use the Chrono Cross in the last battle, which, by the way, seemed A LOT easier to me than the one right before it. Such is the way with Square RPGs, though, to not put the most difficult enemy last. I beat it pretty late into the night, so I can't remember a whole lot about the ending now, except man, was it pretty, especially the credits. Wasn't there a pop song at the end of it? Seems to be a FRIGHTENING TREND. To everyone except Anita, because I know she remembers: Anyone remember Castlevania: Symphony of The Night? I Am the Wind. Have you done any of the CC sidequests? They're kinda neat. And, before you write a post about Square's philosophies, you might want to play Vagrant Story, or Final Fantasy Tactics, though I reccommend the former unless you have tons of free time. And, FF9 went about discussing the questions of what defines existence, and free will. And ff8, well... it had teenage angst. And Elton John. So, yes, there's a lot to talk about with Square and philosophy. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> ------------------
<A HREF="http://labgoats.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>http://labgoats.keenspace.com</A> - Fight, Megaman! For everlasting peace!

Joe_Ubergamer · Post by **Joe_Ubergamer** » Sat Dec 08, 2001 11:25 am

Hey now, if you are going to delve into Square philosophy don't be ruling out old school. There is Final Fantasy 4 (American 2) where the ending taps on the notion that without evil there can be no good. There is FF6 (American 6) where Terra has a revelation about what she lives for. Then there is FF2 (the orginal japanesse game for NES) where you get into metaphysics where characters die as if made out of cardboard, assuming you deal with the evil advancement system.Vagrant Story - proof that Square doesn't always throw a harder boss before the last one.See also: FF1-3, Chrono Trigger and most characters from SaGa Frontier.That reminds me, on the topic of bad endings, as anyone played through SaGa Frontier with Blue? I was fighting the last boss, and while I was doing a leap attack (which had not even hit yet) the screen goes black and white and says "The End"

Raistmaj · Post by **Raistmaj** » Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:01 am

I am not sure about the hard boss second to last. I havent seen a really tough boss yet. Of course I tend to be the "build my char to max level before taking on anything difficult," kind of guy.And if we are getting into the Philosophy of Square games, lets all agree beforehand that this is philosophy we are infering from the games. It really doesn't seem that Square goes out of it's way to put a coherant message into its games. Either that or it is, quite litteraly, lost in the translation.Mike------------------
It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it![This message has been edited by raistmaj (edited 12-10-2001).]

Labgoat · Post by **Labgoat** » Mon Dec 10, 2001 5:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joe_Ubergamer:
Hey now, if you are going to delve into Square philosophy don't be ruling out old school. There is Final Fantasy 4 (American 2) where the ending taps on the notion that without evil there can be no good. There is FF6 (American 6) where Terra has a revelation about what she lives for. Then there is FF2 (the orginal japanesse game for NES) where you get into metaphysics where characters die as if made out of cardboard, assuming you deal with the evil advancement system.Vagrant Story - proof that Square doesn't always throw a harder boss before the last one.See also: FF1-3, Chrono Trigger and most characters from SaGa Frontier.That reminds me, on the topic of bad endings, as anyone played through SaGa Frontier with Blue? I was fighting the last boss, and while I was doing a leap attack (which had not even hit yet) the screen goes black and white and says "The End"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay, I had forgotten about good ol' FFIV. That game was full bore about duality, and it had a lot of good Star Wars parallels (Golbez=Darth Vader, but that's just me). As for FVI, I liked that near the end, everyone found something to live for (except for Terra, who found it a bit before). Here was Kefka, pretty much destroying everything, and everyone still had someone/thing to hold on to. I've never played FF2, but man, that sounds cool. I could never find a good ROM of it.
I didn't play all the way through Vagrant Story, but it'd be just like Square to pull a fast one on me like that. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> About your Chrono Trigger reference, is that about them putting the hardest boss last? When I first played through it, the Golem Boss gave me more trouble, but upon successive play-throughs, yeah, Lavos was the hardest boss.
I have SaGa Frontier sitting in my library right now, but I've not played it. Maybe I should, after I beat Rogue Squadron. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
Was their much philosophy in Secret of Mana? I can't remember. I remember Santa Claus, and the Thanatos' theme (it rocked out), but I can't remember much past that. ------------------
<A HREF="http://labgoats.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>http://labgoats.keenspace.com</A> - Fight, Megaman! For everlasting peace!

Joe_Ubergamer · Post by **Joe_Ubergamer** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 5:52 am

You're looking for a good translated version of FF2? Look no further, I got roms out my arse. Send your email addy to The_pure_gamer@yahoo.com (note: this is not intended to be a commercial, but it did kinda come across like that)

Pirate_wench · Post by **Pirate_wench** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 10:18 am

Secret of Mana played on the theme of chaos overtaking harmony. And in typical Square fashion chaos was brought about by technology and human greed. this is the theme I've found in most Square games I've played:nature stuff good - mechanical stuff badSince the main character's mother is a big ol'tree he obviously has the stuff it takes to beat up on some machinery.