Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead inside

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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:12 pm

Laemkral wrote:
Phact0rri wrote:yeah to much money is funnelled into healthcare. collectively we spend like 3 trillion a year in healthcare in this country and were like number 30 as far as average lifespans go. somethings quite amiss.


Well, thats what happens when healthcare is treated like a commodity and not a service. Which is ridiculous because I can't sell you some of my health, nor stockpile it for when I might need more of it. I can do that with other commodities, but not health.

You could if you worked hard enough/deserved it/weren't of a social/ethnic/economic group I dislike. *crosses arms*

b/c I would hate for it to be misinterpreted, this is not my actual opinion, though it is one i've heard from enough people (plenty of whom should know better). it's a topic i'm a bit bitter about, to be honest :(
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby McDuffies on Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:21 am

You guys are sooo socialists. :P
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby Phact0rri on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:52 am

McDuffies wrote:You guys are sooo socialists. :P


I think the best is all the right-wing sorts are threatening to move to canada. Because obviously that makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby McDuffies on Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:19 pm

Really they should move to Mexico.
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:23 pm

McDuffies wrote:Really they should move to Mexico.

But then there'd be all the *looks left* *looks right* brown people
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby shuckingoysters on Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:48 pm

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:
McDuffies wrote:Really they should move to Mexico.

But then there'd be all the *looks left* *looks right* brown people


Who refuse to learn English, the nerve.
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby robotthepirate on Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:02 am

Laemkral wrote:
Phact0rri wrote:yeah to much money is funnelled into healthcare. collectively we spend like 3 trillion a year in healthcare in this country and were like number 30 as far as average lifespans go. somethings quite amiss.


Well, thats what happens when healthcare is treated like a commodity and not a service. Which is ridiculous because I can't sell you some of my health, nor stockpile it for when I might need more of it. I can do that with other commodities, but not health.


Same logic can be applied to show that time is in fact NOT money. People who say that either don't value their time or value money way too highly.

Like the people who work extra shifts then complain about always being in work, but have to work extra to go abroad on holiday 5 times this year, which they need to do because their so stressed from all the work.

shuckingoysters wrote:Who refuse to learn English, the nerve.


Y'all do it wrong anyway.
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby McDuffies on Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:37 am

I speak strictly cockney.
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:03 am

http://www.eonline.com/news/andy_griffi ... rys/327572
:(

I need to watch A Face in the Crowd again. RIP Andy.
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby Phact0rri on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:48 am

Truthfully the people that work extra hard in labour jobs don't even get to holiday once per. My mum works in a factory, and is lucky to have the funds to go some place within the US for a weekend. working eleven hours six days a week. Where in I'm sure her bosses who sit around all day, have no worries on saving up for multiple holidays. Though I can't talk much I find it hard to save up for holidays either but my job really isn't all that intensive most of the time. I would like to travel back to the UK sometime soon. But I don't ever have the money for it.

My girl from Japan, hasn't been to her home country in five years. She's worked eleven hour shifts both days this week. I don't know how people do it.


In other news, people have printed some of my insanity. Writing under Robbie Lizhini... you know you want to see FDR with robot legs punching Nazi Sailors. http://www.amazon.com/Presidential-Pulp ... ntial+pulp
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby shuckingoysters on Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:20 am

robotthepirate wrote:Y'all do it wrong anyway.


Yowrn rite enuff.

Phact0rri wrote:Truthfully the people that work extra hard in labour jobs don't even get to holiday once per. My mum works in a factory, and is lucky to have the funds to go some place within the US for a weekend. working eleven hours six days a week. Where in I'm sure her bosses who sit around all day, have no worries on saving up for multiple holidays. Though I can't talk much I find it hard to save up for holidays either but my job really isn't all that intensive most of the time. I would like to travel back to the UK sometime soon. But I don't ever have the money for it.


I doubt it's quite that easy, especially in the lower levels. To be honest, I've always found the gulf of mentality that's been fostered between management and labour to be more than a little frustrating. Unfortunately, abuses on both sides, particularly by executives, have made things needlessly messy.

Laemkral's right, though -- treating healthcare (or rather healthcare via health insurance) like a commodity has hurt the efficacy of the American healthcare industry. What troubles me about the ACA is that it doesn't seem to address that problem, but rather ownership of the commodity mandatory without really addressing the fundamental flaws in the system that have build up since the 1990s.
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby McDuffies on Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:15 am

Seems unreasonable of me to comment on the situation in place where I've never been (as far as I know, "USA" may be one big hoax :P ) but by reactions from last time health care reformation was brought up, a lot of people are still stuck in the cold war mindset... rejecting an ideology that isn't completely without it's merits means closing yourself to possibilities that may be (and have been) implemented into generally a more humane system. I'm close to the opinion that capitalism is just one big hoax that one class perpetrated upon another... if you're working 10 hours a day without vacation, observing higher-ups and you're told to believe that their high salaries and bonuses are actually beneficial for you - it's only logical to feel cheated.

In other news, people have printed some of my insanity. Writing under Robbie Lizhini... you know you want to see FDR with robot legs punching Nazi Sailors.

Wow, congrats.

I need to watch A Face in the Crowd again. RIP Andy.

Say, when one actor has two very popular shows in different stages of his life, that feels kinda like widower that remarried. Do you think Don Knots is waiting for him up there, tapping his foot?
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:15 pm

Heck, they're probably gone fishing already :P

The thing is I liked the Andy Griffith show, but Matlock was definitely my favorite of those two. I feel like I'm not a proper fan.

Though I'm a few steps above people writing "RIP Andy Griffin" :eyebrow:
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby Laemkral on Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:20 pm

McDuffies wrote:Seems unreasonable of me to comment on the situation in place where I've never been (as far as I know, "USA" may be one big hoax :P ) but by reactions from last time health care reformation was brought up, a lot of people are still stuck in the cold war mindset... rejecting an ideology that isn't completely without it's merits means closing yourself to possibilities that may be (and have been) implemented into generally a more humane system. I'm close to the opinion that capitalism is just one big hoax that one class perpetrated upon another... if you're working 10 hours a day without vacation, observing higher-ups and you're told to believe that their high salaries and bonuses are actually beneficial for you - it's only logical to feel cheated.


That's only because you ARE being cheated. It's not even the gap between management and labor, it's the gap between members of the board and everyone below them. If you're up in that Vice President of ______ region, you make a sinful amount of money. Like ridiculously large. High six figures to low seven figures. Plus stock options, plus bonuses, plus all the company perks. In the US, the pay gap between the average employee and the CEO is around 1:400. For every dollar the AVERAGE (not even lowest paid, but the most common) person makes, the CEO is making 400. So if the average pay is $50,000 a year, the CEO is making roughly $20,000,000. But don't worry, somehow those millions of dollars will trickle back to you....

In comparison, the pay of the average Soldier to Officer is about 1:2.5, so even though I'm "management" I make a pittance compared to what I could make in the civilian sector. I don't say this to advocate for a pay raise for the military, but to advocate for a pay CUT for corporate management EVERYWHERE. When you can slash a CEO's pay in half and use the money to provide jobs for 200 people, it's quite clear the system is broken. And it won't get fixed because everyone somehow believes they too could be making 7 figures one day and want to keep all that hypothetical money for themselves rather than be taxed. They're afraid of taxes that don't even exist and will likely never affect them.

By the by, I'll happily tax myself at a 50% rate if someone is willing to pay me $500,000 a year. I won't feel the slightest bit "punished for being rich". In fact, I'll be the happiest I'll have ever been.
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm

Sometimes, as a philosophical exercise, I think about what kind of country it would be if politicians had to take a vow of poverty for the time spent in office. I suppose this exercise would be interesting in thinking about high-level management, too.

I always thought about the fact that given that "low-level" labor-type jobs put the people working them in more physical risk, so they ought to be paid more in case they were to become injured a) so that they could pay for any immediate medical bills accrued and b) they woudlnt' feel the need to rush the healing process in order to get back to work because they would ideally have something of a financial cushion to rest on for a while.

I recall hearing that in some areas/periods of time in the Soviet Union, this actually was in place- management would be paid less than the people doing the actual manual labor. Not that I think that that era in general is something we should strive to recreate, but that's one aspect that seemed pretty laudable, I guess.
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby Laemkral on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:15 pm

Actually, I was just trying to make a case that I'm grossly underpaid and that the entire officer pay scale needs to be increased by 200% next fiscal year so that I can be compensated more closely to what my civilian counterparts are making.....
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby shuckingoysters on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:54 pm

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:I always thought about the fact that given that "low-level" labor-type jobs put the people working them in more physical risk, so they ought to be paid more in case they were to become injured a) so that they could pay for any immediate medical bills accrued and b) they woudlnt' feel the need to rush the healing process in order to get back to work because they would ideally have something of a financial cushion to rest on for a while.

I recall hearing that in some areas/periods of time in the Soviet Union, this actually was in place- management would be paid less than the people doing the actual manual labor. Not that I think that that era in general is something we should strive to recreate, but that's one aspect that seemed pretty laudable, I guess.


It sounds great as an idea, but a more effective solution would better and more comprehensive coverage carried by the employer that is subservient to medical advice rather than quarterly expense reports. How to achieve that is another matter all togher. The problem I have with management being paid less is that it discourages people taking on decision-making responsibilities. Most actual management positions (if you're American, read as 'exempt') require education for a reason, leaving you penalising those willing and able to to take risks and work with their intellects. It's one of those things where, honestly, anyone can operate a machine for 8 hours a day with a few days' worth of training, but not everyone can coordinate the efforts of a larger organisation into something that works efficiently and well.

Laemkral wrote:That's only because you ARE being cheated. It's not even the gap between management and labor, it's the gap between members of the board and everyone below them. If you're up in that Vice President of ______ region, you make a sinful amount of money. Like ridiculously large. High six figures to low seven figures. Plus stock options, plus bonuses, plus all the company perks. In the US, the pay gap between the average employee and the CEO is around 1:400. For every dollar the AVERAGE (not even lowest paid, but the most common) person makes, the CEO is making 400. So if the average pay is $50,000 a year, the CEO is making roughly $20,000,000. But don't worry, somehow those millions of dollars will trickle back to you....


Now here's a philosophical exercise -- what would happen if the boards and executives were forced to become stakeholders in their companies and liability limitations were drastically cut?
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby McDuffies on Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:00 am

I always thought about the fact that given that "low-level" labor-type jobs put the people working them in more physical risk, so they ought to be paid more in case they were to become injured a) so that they could pay for any immediate medical bills accrued and

From my experience, middle management still has far more responsibilities, intellectual strain and, of course, stress and stress-related illnesses than a low-level worker. It's easy to fall into thinking that physical work is harder than intellectual or organizational, but it isn't. As for the high-level managers, I guess their work should be even harder, but they get away with a lot thanks to the fact that they have less direct supervisors.
I'm talking about companies here, of course. It's nothing to justify 1:400 salary ratio, and then even larger companies here would probably be considered small potato compared to those in USA, and in smaller companies there's a lot less detachment. I understand that USA has the system with sort of an oversaturation with management and various advisers, that it's very cumbersome and unnecessarily burdened with management layers a system.

b) they woudlnt' feel the need to rush the healing process in order to get back to work because they would ideally have something of a financial cushion to rest on for a while.

The real solution is, of course, better medical security. Idea of socially conscious state is that average man has the cushion to fall back to when something unpredictable and disastrous happens. Capitalist line of thought goes along the lines that if something happens to you to fall on hard times, it is probably your fault and you should have been working harder to prevent that, and on the other hand, an army of average Joes seems to think "ah, that can never happen to me", neither of which is true, and there should always be state institutions to back you up (and even if there are some rednecks out there abusing the system and living on social security all their lives, frankly, that's far less of a problem than people think). Social security = less stressed nation = healthier + less violent nation

I recall hearing that in some areas/periods of time in the Soviet Union, this actually was in place- management would be paid less than the people doing the actual manual labor. Not that I think that that era in general is something we should strive to recreate, but that's one aspect that seemed pretty laudable, I guess.

Eeeh... communist systems had a rather antagonistic relationship with intellectual elite. It's nominally due to their emphasis on manual laborer, but the real reason is suppressing the freedom of though, and the fact that most of leaders came from poor educational background, where it's thought that all management ever does is sit around and give orders, which in any well organized system is far from true.
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:37 am

This is all true, of course, which is why it mostly remains a vengeful thought exercise and nothing more.

Basically I'm bitter about the wealth disparity. Even though it's not as bad as it could be (and is/has been, both here and in other countries), I get frustrated with political rhetoric that is used to either justify it or pretend it isn't really there.
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Re: Livejournal Thread 4: Can't kill what's already dead ins

Postby RobboAKAscooby on Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:55 am

Taking a break from some drawing to organize the rest of my 2 & 1/2 week US trip...then I find out I have less funds available on my credit card than I thought so now I have to wait until morning for the transfer to go through *sigh* oh well it will be worth it...

...I so need a holiday...
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