Religion vs Spirituality

Seth Marati · Post by **Seth Marati** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:04 am

I've encountered every one of those apologist lines of reasoning that Honor mentioned, and I say every one of them could be objectively refuted by saying "Get over yourselves."

Kittyboymuffin · Post by **Kittyboymuffin** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:49 am

Ah yes, that's the fallacy "appeal to emotions", that is.

WD · Post by WD » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:49 am

Religion and spirituality is there to give people hope...

Everyone finds it in there own way... just think.. we have "happy places" (erm... not them ones... the one's you go when life gets you down) They have some floaty bloke in the sky to talk to...

Whatever works for you i guess

(I'm an athiest by the way, in every sense of the word, I don't believe in a "God" as such, i'm more a man of science, but hey, i'm not gonna get about telling them they're living a lie, i mean i wouldn't expect them to ruin my illusions about the tooth fairy so why should i ruin theirs?)

Boring 7 · Post by **Boring 7** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:55 pm

Well if it makes you feel better Kitty, add "and it has been documented that the majority of my countrymen would not give a damn when I was."

Religion is a drug, an "opiate of the masses."

But I generally prefer a Jesus-addict to a Meth-addict.

Honor · Post by **Honor** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:45 am

boring 7 wrote:Religion is a drug, an "opiate of the masses."

But I generally prefer a Jesus-addict to a Meth-addict.

Hmm... I don't know. Tough call. I guess I'd prefer a casual jebus user, but an addict?

I guess, even that... if jebus (or other religion) addicts were approximately as plentiful as meth addicts currently are. In substantial quantities, I think they're about equally unsavory, in that the religion addicts seem to do a much better job of organizing to band together to destroy the world.

In fact... That's a significant distinction. The meth addicts don't actually, actively want to destroy the world... The hardcore jesus addicts do.

Boring 7 · Post by **Boring 7** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:36 am

As an individual, a Jesus addict can be talked to and reasoned with (for certain values of "reason"). A tweekin' meth-addict. . .not so much.

At the organizational level, the metaphor breaks down. Though one can find parallels between an Italian mobster and an Italian Inquisitor.

Kittyboymuffin · Post by **Kittyboymuffin** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:27 am

That always reminds me of a Calvin and Hobbes quote:

Calvin (to Hobbes) It says here that religion is the opiate of the masses. I wonder what that means?
TV: (thought-cloud) It means Karl Marx hadn't seen anything yet.

Kenryoku · Post by **Kenryoku** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:10 am

lesotheron wrote:I believe that when a person dies, consiousness dies<snip>

Frankly, this idea terrifies the shit out of me and leaves me numb.
If there was every a motivating factor to explore and search for the truth of life after death and religion, this would be it. It would be comforting to know that after I die there is something greater waiting for me than a cease of existence in it's entirety.

Lesotheron · Post by **Lesotheron** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:32 am

Kenryoku wrote:
lesotheron wrote:I believe that when a person dies, consiousness dies<snip>
Frankly, this idea terrifies the shit out of me and leaves me numb.
If there was every a motivating factor to explore and search for the truth of life after death and religion, this would be it. It would be comforting to know that after I die there is something greater waiting for me than a cease of existence in it's entirety.

That's actually pretty funny. Not that you wish for something more (I can understand that perfectly), but that I find the thought of ceasing to exist at death to be just as comforting as other people see the afterlife.

To me, the afterlife is nothing more than an opportunity for people to continue to bicker and squabble and fight on a different plane of existence. Sorry, I've had enough of that just in life. In death, I want some peace. If I have to cease to exist to get it, I'm more than willing to do so.

But as I've said so many times, none of us will know whether or not we're right until we die. By then, we're not going to be in a position to pass the information along to those who are still alive.

So, you believe in your afterlife, I'll believe in mine, and if we're lucky, we'll both get what we want.

Kenryoku · Post by **Kenryoku** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:42 am

squidflakes wrote:Religion is a tool of control. Science is a tool of discovery.

You know if you flip this around ...

Religion is a tool of discovery. Science is a tool of control.

... it works for me too.

Religion can be seen as a tool for the discovery of truth for one's self.
Science can be seen as a tool for the control of the once uncontrollable of the past.

*looks around*

What?! Makes sense to me!

Kenryoku · Post by **Kenryoku** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:56 am

lesotheron wrote:To me, the afterlife is nothing more than an opportunity for people to continue to bicker and squabble and fight on a different plane of existence. Sorry, I've had enough of that just in life.

If you have had enough, why are you still in this thread? When you have had enough of something, you get away from it.

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:07 am

Kenryoku wrote:
lesotheron wrote:I believe that when a person dies, consiousness dies<snip>
Frankly, this idea terrifies the shit out of me and leaves me numb.
If there was every a motivating factor to explore and search for the truth of life after death and religion, this would be it. It would be comforting to know that after I die there is something greater waiting for me than a cease of existence in it's entirety.

It would be comforting to know that after I get home from history class that there are 3 naked women and a Hummer waiting for me, as opposed to a dorm room and some muffins.

Just because it's comforting doesn't make it correct, or sane, or anything like that.

Kenryoku · Post by **Kenryoku** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:12 am

For someone who said earlier in the thread.

swordsman3003 wrote:I DON'T BELIEVE IN THINGS!! GODDAMNIT STOP LYING ABOUT ME!

Saying ...

swordsman3003 wrote:Just because it's comforting doesn't make it correct, or sane, or anything like that.

... is a total contradiction to yourself.

P.s. you dont know shit about how sane or not I am, keep your unfounded insinuations and/or assumptions about it to yourself.

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:19 am

Kenryoku wrote:For someone who said earlier in the thread.
swordsman3003 wrote:I DON'T BELIEVE IN THINGS!! GODDAMNIT STOP LYING ABOUT ME!
Saying ...
swordsman3003 wrote:Just because it's comforting doesn't make it correct, or sane, or anything like that.
... is a total contradiction to yourself.

P.s. you dont know shit about how sane or not I am, keep your unfounded insinuations and/or assumptions about it to yourself.

First of all, I did not say that you were insane, nor did I say you were incorrect. Let me rephrase:

"It does not matter how good an idea makes you feel; whether or not it makes you feel good has no bearing on it's validity."

Don't try to justify religious belief with an emotional appeal to me.

Secondly, how is that a contradiction?

I said I don't believe in things, so stop calling my ideas beliefs. A belief is an idea that is held without any evidence, and all of my ideas are based on evidence. Calling my ideas beliefs clearly either a mistake or a lie. If someone were continuing to lie about you, I think you would get upset too.

I never called you wrong or crazy or anything of that nature. All that I said was "comfort does not grant validity."

Let me also mention that my posts here are not for your sole enjoyment; even if I only quoted what you said, that does not mean I wasn't referring to what other people have said in this thread.

I have not called you insane nor do I call you so today. If you felt my insinuation was directed at you, that is my mistake, and I apologize.

However, my comment still stands.

swordsman3003 wrote:Just because it's comforting doesn't make it correct, or sane, or anything like that.

Kenryoku · Post by **Kenryoku** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:47 pm

swordsman3003 wrote:Don't try to justify religious belief with an emotional appeal to me.

No hard feelings then.
And another btw, Im not attempting to justify anything to anyone. In my original post I was speaking solely about myself and my needs to search for answers for myself. You might be assuming I am "a relgious type" attempting to spread this and that but I have zero interest in doing that sort of thing for I am neither gifted with the charisma to move others in that manner nor gifted with the patience to do so. You searched for your answers and you found them and obviously stand by them with powerful convinction - I am not so convinced of these things so my search continues.

Or in other words I gave up that subtle, beat-around-the-bush bullshit years ago, if I was trying to convince you to believe in something you would know it without question.

Honor · Post by **Honor** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:34 pm

Kenryoku wrote:
lesotheron wrote:I believe that when a person dies, consiousness dies<snip>
Frankly, this idea terrifies the shit out of me and leaves me numb.
If there was every a motivating factor to explore and search for the truth of life after death and religion, this would be it. It would be comforting to know that after I die there is something greater waiting for me than a cease of existence in it's entirety.

I still think the best way I've 'heard' the views I hold on this stated was a comment here by Nithos.

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:19 am

I understand how you might feel, Kenryoku.

Don't take my comments about what I think the wrong way, though. I don't really have many convictions about how the world is, or the meaning of life. The only conviction I have would be that reason and logic are the only methods of finding out any truth.

Kenryoku · Post by **Kenryoku** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:48 am

Honor wrote:I still think the best way I've 'heard' the views I hold on this stated was a comment here by Nithos.

Yes, very mature look on that.
He described there something I could live with ... "a peace". I have had a past marked with violent episodes I was not able to stop nor do anything about for reasons I will not get into here, so the idea that after this life there is a simple "peace" to be had is extremely comforting. I hope he is right.

swordsman3003 wrote:The only conviction I have would be that reason and logic are the only methods of finding out any truth.

... and hence my search continues.
Brought up Southern Baptist I had the fire and brimstone taught me, but like many I have a difficult time believing that our creator would make us, love us, then if we do not behave to a standard he communicated through sages none of us will ever get to talk to in this life he will burn us in Hell forever does seem somewhat counter-intuitive to me. Especially when you begin to listen to some "well educated" bible types that will tell you your guilty of sin for pro-creation, perhaps this world's most powerful motivators of action and passion.

*waves hands about* ... you all know where I am able to take that, in the end "organized religion" seems to me to be besieged with laws written by men, and by the very religion they follow men are prone to skips in morality and sin so who can really be sure what has been delievered to us is truth or lies added for the purposes of whatever...? That is why I search, both outside and inside, for the truth of the matter of religion and spirituality. And that is why I do not press the matter of religion on others, because if they are pilgrims in their own search for the truth I do not want to be a roadsign to convince them to go down the wrong path.

Yeah, I know, quite a bit of touchy-feely mumbo ... another reason I do not normally chat about it. In matters of the heart and soul you really cant be sincere without sounding like a fruit-loop on the side of the plastic cereal bag of life ....

Swordsman3003 · Post by **Swordsman3003** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:39 am

I would just like to point out that nobody effectively tackled my assertion that god cannot exist.

It would seem that since god does not, and cannot exist....there is no god.

[edited for grammar]