There be goblins here...

Postby The JAM on Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:58 pm

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.


You'll recall Velvet's statement "I don't feel particularly Tibetan", and the discussion with Ben's pastor. That in itself more or less excluded the Posse from being actual tulpas. It was the shadow dragon that labeled them so. I myself didn't have any problems with this strip, and I really don't know why Ralph is undergoing a

? redo from start

but remember that this is HIS strip. Sheesh, I don't know how many times Ive had to revamp fanfics from the top because the whole thing just didn't work out.

Bigotry? Well, has he downright flamed Buddhism and Mysticism?


¡Zacatepóngolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]
User avatar
The JAM
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 2281
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: Somewhere in Mexico...

Postby Jace on Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:59 pm

Ransom Returns wrote:Not sure.

People change their minds over time, go through different stages of life. Maybe he thought it was ok then, but has grown concerned with it over time.

Ann Rice changed her perspective from when she wrote vampire novels to novels about Christ, Tony Stewart switched from Indycar to Nascar full time, etc.


Yes, people change, but Ann Rice, to my knowledge, has not started republishing her books with Lestat as a devout Christian. Nor, I imagine, is Tony Stewart denying a connection Indycar.

The JAM wrote:Bigotry? Well, has he downright flamed Buddhism and Mysticism?


Did I say he had? I said 'verges'.

And yeah, revamps are one thing. Do you change it after 6 years and how many visitors?

Calbeck wrote:So what's the problem?


Just the sudden reversal on that stance, really, for the apparent reason of 'It's not Christian enough'. Well, maybe that's an exaggerated simplification, but that's what it sounds like.

He made magic his own by terming it 'lux', he made an original fantasy out of talking raccoons, he made his own variation on elves... and now, rather than redefine the posse concept in his own terms, he scraps it completely in favour of an entirely different concept. *shrugs*
Last edited by Jace on Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jace
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm

Postby Calbeck on Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:53 pm

Jace wrote:
Calbeck wrote:So what's the problem?


Just the sudden reversal on that stance, really, for the apparent reason of 'It's not Christian enough'. Well, maybe that's an exaggerated simplification, but that's what it sounds like.


I think "exaggerated simplification" is hitting it on the head. I'm not seeing anything substantial to indicate Ben is doing this out of some "religious necessity". To the contrary, I think Mr. Rubber Ottah explained things nicely. This is about strip complexity, not religion.

Although, I must thank some folks for saying that Ben had started retconning original strips: it made me go back to the start and begin rereading --- and it's just as enjoyable the second time around as the first! -:)

At this rate I'm going to have to buy the dead tree versions.

He made magic his own by terming it 'lux', he made an original fantasy out of talking raccoons, he made his own variation on elves... and now, rather than redefine the posse concept in his own terms, he scraps it completely in favour of an entirely different concept. *shrugs*


I don't see them as being scrapped so much as morphed.
User avatar
Calbeck
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: The Land of AZ

Postby Ransom Returns on Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:57 pm

I suspect it's a number of issues, theology being one of them.

Regardless, it's apparent that the comic had gotten to the point where the author was not comfortable continuing it, and rather than simply ending it he chose to revamp it.

It's not that some of the criticism is totally without a point, but it is perhaps premature, given that the retcon is still in process.

There was already a marked change in the nature of story, IMHO between GH and UTLT, from Ben being an unsettled bachelor to now being married, with an arcade and a new influx of characters. This sort of "cuts the cord" from the previous perspective, though I understand how the implication that this is "rewriting" the previous couple of years of the strip might be unnerving to some people, same with the sudden change in design.

Of course, I tend to enjoy authors taking risks like this.
Ransom Returns
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 2:00 pm

Postby Earl McClaw on Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:19 pm

BoKiana wrote:This just makes me wonder how it changes the "Tulpa Master gone mad", Waarhorse and Frisky's own posse.

Well...

Waarhorse and Frisky could have goblins of their own. (There might even be a whole sub-culture of people with goblins.)

The "mad tulpas" could become goblins who imprinted on lunatics.

The dragons fit in so much better with goblins.

And the "pearls" are part of dragon heritage, so I don't see them being affected much.

Lastly, the "eigth goblin" could still be a rather harmless survivor of the Lunatic Fringe.

My only real dissapointment is in the slight shifting of forms. (Velvet-goblin hasn't won me over yet, and I've got my doubts about Morty.) Oh, and we simply must see Penny-goblin in the regular continuity!

(And this doesn't quite meet the standards of a full retcon until Ralph re-draws all the past strips to conform!)
Earl McClaw invites you to visit Furryco and the DGL. (Avatar used with permission of Ralph Hayes, Jr.)
User avatar
Earl McClaw
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 8:15 am

Postby Jace on Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:02 pm

Calbeck wrote:I'm not seeing anything substantial to indicate Ben is doing this out of some "religious necessity". To the contrary, I think Mr. Rubber Ottah explained things nicely. This is about strip complexity, not religion.


I didn't see it either, but we have people here who talk about RHJunior's motivations and plans as if they have all the facts, and it has been mentioned such things are discussed by the artist on an IRC channel.

So when someone says it has been changed because of the artist's strong religious views, who do I believe?

I don't see them as being scrapped so much as morphed.


The posse are morphed, and retain the feature of imprinting off an aspect of his psyche to determine their own personality, but otherwise the tulpa idea is essentially scrapped. They're not figments or derived from his subconscious due to a reality anomaly, there's no worry about if they're real or have souls or what-have-you.
Jace
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm

Postby Wanderwolf on Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:07 am

sun tzu wrote:Goblins being good is not completely unprecedented.
And, after all, where there is free will, there can be good.


Besides that, there is another matter: Goblin is only a specific creature in more modern tales. In the older legends, it's a generic term, used to describe creatures of Faery. Among these are the pooka (Ireland, though most famous in Harvey); the bwbach, or Welsh house efl; the ellwyl, or Welsh "will o' wisp"; and so on.

In fact, one of the possible inspirations for "goblin" (nobody's really 100% sure where the word came from) is a Welsh word: Coblynau, the lucky spirit of the mines. Here's a cite.

The coblynau are described as being about half a yard in height and very ugly to look upon, but extremely good-natured, and warm friends of the miner. Their dress is a grotesque imitation of the miner's garb, and they carry tiny hammers, picks and lamps. They work busily, loading ore in buckets, flitting about the shafts, turning tiny windlasses, and pounding away like madmen, but really accomplishing nothing whatever. They have been known to throw stones at the miners, when enraged at being lightly spoken of; but the stones are harmless. nevertheless, all miners of a proper spirit refrain from provoking them, because their presence brings good luck.


See? Good goblins.

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer
User avatar
Wanderwolf
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:18 pm
Location: Forney, TX, U.S.A.

Postby Wanderwolf on Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:13 am

maxgoof wrote:Here's the problem that Ralph faced:

He is a strong Christian. Suddenly he realizes that he has Eastern Mysticism as a major concept in his comic.

That's not all that bad, but how can you poke fun at wiccans and otherkin if your main character has aspects of his personality popping in and out having appeared basically out of nothing?


Point the First: Tulpas originated in the East, that's true. But the concept was quite popular in mystic circles, and has been circulated in every Theosophy, Mysticism and Sorcery reference work that cares to earn the name.

Point the Second: As had been pointed out in the convention arc (where he met Waarhorse), the big difference is that the tulpas/goblins have an objective physical reality. To paraphrase Sheldon (because I have to get some sleep soon), "When his invisible unicorn spirit can honk his nose, then we'll talk".

Point the Third: Since goblins are creatures of Faery, this resolves the Christian dilemma you posit... how? Remember, creatures of Faery cannot stand the ringing of church bells, they can be banished with holy water, and they're in the temptings of several saints. This according to traditions of old standing.

Sorry, Max, but I'd call this theory a "goof". <rim shot>

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer
User avatar
Wanderwolf
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:18 pm
Location: Forney, TX, U.S.A.

Postby Namrepus221 on Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:22 pm

You know... why hasn't RH come to possibly squelch some of the wild rumors.

I mean atleast tell us WHY he's making the change.
Namrepus221
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:14 pm

Postby Ransom Returns on Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:40 pm

Namrepus221 wrote:You know... why hasn't RH come to possibly squelch some of the wild rumors.

I mean atleast tell us WHY he's making the change.


I'm assuming he wants to do that through the comic. He's addressed minor points, but apparently doesn't want to just dump everything at once.
Ransom Returns
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 2:00 pm

Postby Calbeck on Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:22 am

Wanderwolf wrote:Point the Third: Since goblins are creatures of Faery, this resolves the Christian dilemma you posit... how? Remember, creatures of Faery cannot stand the ringing of church bells, they can be banished with holy water, and they're in the temptings of several saints. This according to traditions of old standing.


Ah, invokin' a bit o' th' old Irishness, eh? Heh, I'll put tae that, laddie!

*pops open a bottle of Tullamore Dew*

Gitcher mugs who's havin'!
User avatar
Calbeck
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: The Land of AZ

Postby RHJunior on Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:52 am

Those "traditions of old standing" were forcibly introduced by rather personally motivated Catholic priests, who were looking to supplant the local beliefs with their own.... and set about it with a conscious will.
The legends of fey creatures go much farther back than their arrival. As such, anything the Pope and his little popelings had to say about goblins, faeries, elves, etc. would have to be generally regarded as.... well, politically motivated propaganda, and not a reliable source of info.
"What was that popping noise ?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert
RHJunior
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 1689
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: WV

Postby The JAM on Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:51 am

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.


Sounds a bit of what they did here as well when the Catholics did away with ritual human sacrifices. There are Aztec and Mayan legends of creatures that may be included in the Færie genre. Among them: the Mayan Alux (aloosh). Sort of the New World version of a leprechaun, about the same height, too, though very hairy, and reputedly rather mischievous, though they do seem to guard some fields and caves from "evil intruders".

And one interesting thing that was found in the Templo Mayor: http://www.analesiie.unam.mx/pdf/66_07-44.pdf and look at the top of page 29. Not færie, but these guys also knew about the concept of Furry.


¡Zacatepóngolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i. "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]
Attachments
Jaguar Templo Mayor.jpg
The original eagle and jaguar talking to each other.
Jaguar Templo Mayor.jpg (79.99 KiB) Viewed 2246 times
Last edited by The JAM on Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
The JAM
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 2281
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: Somewhere in Mexico...

Postby Wanderwolf on Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:21 pm

RHJunior wrote:Those "traditions of old standing" were forcibly introduced by rather personally motivated Catholic priests, who were looking to supplant the local beliefs with their own.... and set about it with a conscious will.
The legends of fey creatures go much farther back than their arrival. As such, anything the Pope and his little popelings had to say about goblins, faeries, elves, etc. would have to be generally regarded as.... well, politically motivated propaganda, and not a reliable source of info.


Mea culpa... or should that be "mea tulpa", in this thread? A valid point, Ralph, especially given your non-Catholic origins. I apologize, and should have skipped that reference; age does not equal accuracy, after all. Merely respect, and not much of it.

So, while you're here... was there a religious component to your decision?

Yours curiously,

The wondering, wandering,

Wanderer
User avatar
Wanderwolf
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:18 pm
Location: Forney, TX, U.S.A.

Postby Hallan on Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:26 pm

I'd started out as a disappointed 'Wait and see', but I find myself increasingly drifting toward the 'New Coke. Midichlorians. Greedo shoots first.' crowd. I -liked- how the Posse originally came into existence. It's unique, it's remarkable, and it rather neatly wraps up the 'where did they come from' quandary. It also makes them pretty much invulnerable to injury, aging, or death.

This change, as it stands, throws everything previous to it out the window. It really feels to me like RH has thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Count me in among the people who'd like to hear the reasons for the change directly from RH Junior.

Hallan
User avatar
Hallan
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm

Postby Steltek on Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:30 pm

I have to say...I liked it a lot better before. I don't know if I can get used to this.
User avatar
Steltek
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:52 pm

Postby Namrepus221 on Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:19 pm

Arby's used to have a slogan.

"Change is good"

But who the hell eats at Arby's anyways.
Namrepus221
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:14 pm

Postby MikeVanPelt on Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:05 pm

Steltek wrote:I have to say...I liked it a lot better before. I don't know if I can get used to this.


I don't think we've seen enough to know whether we'll like the new comic better or less than the old comic.

The changes do seem to make it into a different comic. I hate to see the old one end, but the new, similar one will probably be good, too.
User avatar
MikeVanPelt
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:07 pm

Postby BrockthePaine on Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:47 pm

Namrepus221 wrote:But who the hell eats at Arby's anyways.

Um, me? It's only my second-favorite restaurant after Sonic. Good food, usually clean, in-and-out fast, and most importantly, good curly fries!
It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men. - attributed to Samuel Adams

“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.” - Richard Henry Lee
User avatar
BrockthePaine
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:45 pm
Location: Further up and further in!

Postby The JAM on Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:36 pm

Usually?
User avatar
The JAM
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 2281
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: Somewhere in Mexico...

PreviousNext

 

Return to Under the Lemon Tree



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron