16-6: King of the Household?

[LoneWolf23k]

Exsqueeze me? That whole "final authority" thing seems a bit sexist to me, and I'm a guy. I look at my own parents for an exemple of a good marriage, and my parents are still married after nearly 30 years, and they've always considered one another equal partners in all things.

The way I see it, Lily's in her right to request to have a say in the affairs of her shared household. She's neither Ben's property nor his child; she has the right to assert her opinion.

That's my 2 cents' worth.

[Gmulert]

Looks like you beat me to it. Giving either partner in a marriage power to make unilateral decisions -- especially when those decisions affect the other -- is a recipe for disaster.

[BrockthePaine]

Not quite the way your making it out to be. In context, while the husband is supposed to be the ultimate authority, he's also supposed to make decisions that will benefit both of them as opposed to just benefiting himself.

[Madmoonie]

I look at my parents for an example of a good marriage. They have been married for....neigh on 43 years. My father is the 'leader' of the family, so to speak, but also tells my mother of the big decisions he makes AND consults with her on any life-altering decisions. There can be a leader in a marriage, and traditionally its the male, but its also foolish and uncaring to not respect your partner's role in that marriage. It is a partnership and both members here (GH) acted unwisely. Ben made large puchases (which could lead to the life-changing decisions I was refering to earlier) and Lily, when things went bad, ran home to momma, which she should not have done.

[Labrusca]

Lily has certainly forgotten this little speech, anyway.
http://utlt.comicgenesis.com/d/20040707.html

[Shyal_malkes]

I figure that an absolute equality of power within a marriage is like an absolute equality in,... anywhere outside of mathematics.

in other words, nearly impossable.

it is innevitable that sooner or later one person is going to start making decisions that the other will merely agree with,

now that is not to say that things will stay that way. today mom may say "lets do this" and it gets done tomorrow dad will say "I'm doing this" and that gets done.

much of biology I think is the same, a strive for balances (base vs acid, water/salt mixture, consumption vs energy expences, etc) wich never quite equal out entirely nor (while the organism(s) is alive) does one side overwhelm the other, it is typical that one side will be slightly stronger then the other.


I think in my family my dad has final say, but mom does all the talking. that is most decisions made are her choice and many she doesn't even run by dad at all. I think the only time where a final say should be put into use is when both sides cannot agree. other then that equality should (as in biology) always be strived for, even if they never achieve it that's ok, so long as they are trying and doing their best.

my $0.02

[Narnian]

Remember the Christian model for leadership is that of a servant. To be the leader in the marraige Ben must meet Lillys needs, including addressing her concerns over finances and their family business.

I am the head of our family and if push comes to shove then I have to be willing to make hard decisions when my wife and can't come to a consensus. But with hard work we have not had to do that in our 27+ years of marraige. We don't always agree but through mutual submission we have been able to resolve every issue so far.

[Capnregex]

I think in my family my dad has final say, but mom does all the talking. that is most decisions made are her choice and many she doesn't even run by dad at all.

My parents are kinda like that alot as well. Mom does most of the talking / running of the household, and on a day to day basis runs things. She can also be at times a little stubborn and hot headed. Dad on the other hand is pretty easy going and is more of a natural peace maker. There have been a fiew, rare, times however when my father has put his foot down, so to speak, and when he has done so, his word was final. It's worked for them for the last 50 years. ( and without the throwing of bottles I might add )

Having said that, The idea that the husband has a master / slave like relationship with his wife is one that is bound to blow up in the face of the husband sooner or later, and is not good for either party.

[Sun tzu]

Huh. I'm not a Christian or a theologian, so I might be completely off, but...Wasn't the whole "women must submit to their husband" thing restricted to the Epistles - that is, to letters written by Paul, who himself admits that some of the things contained there are his own opinion rather than God's? Considering Paul was a man of his time, wouldn't that make it a 1st century thing rather than a Christian thing?

[Rangers]

Aah, I think we're reading too much into this. After all, the guy who advanced the idea did get a rolling pin thrown at him.

That said, Shyal's parents sound a lot like my wife and me. She'll hash out plans, but it always falls to me to actually do something about them. That way, if things go south, she can blame me. Apart from the yard - she could pave the whole thing over and I wouldn't have a word to say about it.

[Squeaky Bunny]

In the words of Foghorn, It's a joke, I say a joke son.

It's bad mojo to annoy the cook anyway. They have many sharp and nasty things and can do things to food that will haunt you for days.

[Shyal_malkes]

the other thing about paul's letters is that he was sriting to many different people that each had their own set of problems which he addressed.

in one town there might be a femanine uprising (amazons?) in another town the men are acting like slave drivers. so for one place they would need one lesson and in another place they would need another lesson.

the context is usually pretty handy for understanding what is being written.

[Rangers]

As a husband, my rule of thumb is: Apologize. Always apologize. Even if you don't know what you're apologizing for. ESPECIALLY if you don't know what you're apologizing for. When you get good at it, you can make her THINK you know what you're apologizing for, even if you don't. And that'll save you a lot of extra energy. 'Cause it really doesn't matter. It's your fault - deal with it. You wanted to be the head of the household - so the buck stops with you.

[Jaydub]

Hey, I'm the head of my household and my wife gave me permission to say that.

A marriage is a partnership and needs to have a certain amount give and take. Some decisions just make sense for one or the other to make. Important decisions are another matter. Those need to be discussed and a mutual agreement should be made. Of course where the problem comes in for Ben is recognizing an important decision. Is this something that will send Lily home to her parents or will I be sleeping on the dog house for a week? Using that as a base, some decisions will jump from minor to major in a hurry if you don’t see it coming. I agree with Ranger, here you must apologize, apologize and apologize. Keeping the marriage together is the most important decision.

[The JAM]

The summary of Shaul of Tarshish's orders are: Women, submit to your husbands AND, husbands, YOU'D BETTER BE THE MOST ROMANTIC PERSON ON EARTH FOR HER, otherwise your own prayer requests will be blocked!

[Earl McClaw]

My parents had just reached their 53rd anniversiary when my father passed away a year ago. They had their relationship problems, I'm sure (the first being when my father had come back on leave at the end of his first year in military service and was going to call off the engagement) but I never knew them to have a shouting or violent disagreement.

My father handled the finances. My mother handled the house and kids. Vacations tended to be my father's decisions, but she was always involved in the planning. (My father was also the type that responded better to someone offering an idea and letting him make the decision than to someone telling him what they wanted him to do.)

But I really couldn't say who was the "final authority". They worked together too well for that.

[BrockthePaine]

Huh. I'm not a Christian or a theologian, so I might be completely off, but...Wasn't the whole "women must submit to their husband" thing restricted to the Epistles - that is, to letters written by Paul, who himself admits that some of the things contained there are his own opinion rather than God's? Considering Paul was a man of his time, wouldn't that make it a 1st century thing rather than a Christian thing?

No. Basically, we Christians believe that the entire Bible is inspired directly by God and transcribed through the hands and minds of the writers. Much like shadow writers for the president. While the shadow writer might agree with the speech he's writing, it's meant to be the principle's words and beliefs, not the shadow writer. While we credit Paul with being the writer, we believe that Christ was the author.

FWIW, some people call themselves Christians and believe that the Bible is not inspired or is only partially inspired. One of the cornerposts of Christianity is Biblical infallibility, and trying to weasel out of that is heretical. Naturally, many people will disagree with me.

[RHJunior]

Actually, the whole "man as head of household" is pretty firmly established throughout the bible, starting right with Genesis.

The jab Lily's mother was making is that Lily was making a claim of going along with a long-established Christian doctrine--- that the man was to be the HEAD of the household-- but when it got down to brass tacks, she wanted a lot more control than she was willing to admit to.

And yes, for those who get all antsy and itchy whenever the topic is brought up, that IS a christian doctrine. It's not one we should be embarrassed about either-- yes, I said embarrassed. If you're not embarrassed about the notion of actually exercising the biblical injunction for man to be head of the household, why do you start shuffling your feet and mumbling "well we're actually a PARTNERSHIP" whenever the topic is brought up?

Yes, a marriage can survive, more or less, as a "partnership." A snake can survive with two heads, too... so long as its kept in a terrarium and carefully hand-fed and mollycoddled and nursed through all the harmful complications that arise-- and sheltered from all the things that a normal, healthy snake could take in stride.
To quote Chris Rock, "Yeah, and you can steer a car down the freeway with your FEET, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD!"

For contrast I followed up with Angus' little fracas. That's an illustration of what it does NOT mean to be the head of a household.... contrary to the N.O.W.-indoctrinated public's opinion, being the man of the house doesn't mean being a bully, a boor or a boob. It means being the final decision maker and the first authority. But it also means, as a man, that you are subject to the injunction from God Himself: "Husbands, love your wives."

Right there is a crucial difference between God's perspective on love, and the world's. By God's light, "love" is a VERB, not a NOUN. We aren't commanded to marry the one we fall in love with, we are commanded to love the one we marry. And to love means to place another person's happiness and wellbeing first, even ahead of your own.

When a man accepts the role of head of a family, he accepts the final authority...his word is the last word. But he also accepts the final responsibility. He becomes responsible for the welfare of his whole house-- for their needs... physical, mental, emotional and spiritual. And the bible states that "he who does not provide for his own is <I>worse than an infidel."</i>

Serious business.

The reason marriage is in so much trouble today is because you have an ongoing collision between women who will not accept their husband's authority... and men who will not accept their responsibility.

[Capnregex]

FWIW, some people call themselves Christians and believe that the Bible is not inspired or is only partially inspired. One of the cornerposts of Christianity is Biblical infallibility, and trying to weasel out of that is heretical. Naturally, many people will disagree with me.

Of course we will. inspired does not equate to infalibility.
The bible is TRUE as far as it is translated correctly.
Let's be serious here, there are many different translations of the bible, and the meaning of words shift over time as cultures grow. Even if we were to go back to the origional manuscripts there would be differing opinions about how it should be translated or interpreted, not to mention differenced of opinion as to what should be included. (ie: the apocrapha (sp?)). Why else would we have so many different denominations?
God is infallible. The Bible, as inspired as it is, is still subject to the errors of man. Both the men who wrote it, and mankind as the readers.
Does this shake my faith in Christ? Of course not! Why? Because I not only have the witness of the Spirit to testify of the truth, but I can see the positive effects of living the teachings of Christ in my life. ( even considering how imperfectly I live them )

Example..
Matt 12:1
AT that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

To me, the term Corn refers to the plant grown on the american continent and not available to the rest of the world until sometime after 1492.

Am I going to let that shake my faith? Pshaw!...
1) I could be wrong.. (error in my understanding)
2) They could be plucking and eating some other grain refered to as corn. (error in translation)

Does it make the passage ( including the verses that follow ) any less meaningful to me? No, I can still learn to be a better person by applying the lessons in my own life.

[LoneWolf23k]

The reason marriage is in so much trouble today is because you have an ongoing collision between women who will not accept their husband's authority... and men who will not accept their responsibility.

I do see your point. Be that as it may, I must also point out that in real life, more often then not, the best leaders are the ones who treat those around them with respect and know when to trust their input.