Need Artists!

[Tim]

As a brazilian saying often states, "the ass of a drunk man knows no owner".

I don't know if it's the association with Brazil or what, but I was confused because I didn't immediately interpret "ass" as "donkey".

[Beyonder_alpha]

Wheras the owner of a drunken ass shoud really stop giving his donkey cognac.

NEVER!

[Sincerely]

As a brazilian saying often states, "the ass of a drunk man knows no owner".

I don't know if it's the association with Brazil or what, but I was confused because I didn't immediately interpret "ass" as "donkey". :oops:

I don't think it's necessarily a prerequisite that you should interpret it one way or the other. I'd say it makes sense with both meanings of ass, but is much cruder in what interpretation than in the other.

[FinbarReilly]

Here's where I really start paying attention to the concept: Not all advice is good...

I feel that multiple people projects often fail because in webcomics, everyone expects to work on his own vision, something of his own. That's the least you can ask for from a hobby, after all - from effort you aren't being payed for. In talk with a few people on this subject (and in my own experience on "Comic Writer X" where I was a co-writer and co-artist), I got impression that writers rarely have regard of artist's vision: they deliver them finished script and expect them to draw a comic without having any impact on what the comic is all about. .

Which is how to fail...Duh. And a good writer will have a good vision about what he wants, just as he will listen to the artist. If both sides fail to compromise, the team will dissolve.

Keep in mind that some artists consider writers a dime a dozen, without considering the good ones aren't....

Plus, writers (specially beginners) tend to crowd the script with material that is inattractive to artist: dialogue scenes, explanatory scenes, etc. Nothing that artist actually likes to draw. .

Good advice, but not in this situation. I tend to be visual, and that helps. Also, those scenes may be unattractive to the artist, but they are absolutely needed to make the comic live. Part of writing ANY script is to balance the boring exposition with the exciting action. Otherwise, all you have is boring, out-of-context art....

Writer expects standard system used in professional comics to work, because this system favours writers (in terms of efforts, though not in terms of salaries). Artists, if they are any good, wouldn't be doing it on net and for no money, if they wanted to work according to this system. I heard a lot of writers complain: "Artist didn't respect the deadline/deal/left me hanging".

Neat that you think that writers are multi-millionaires...Also, here's where we go into bad writer/good writer land; good writers value deadlines, bad ones don't. And what does the writer do if the artist misses the deadline?

I've never heard any writer ask himself: "What can I do to make artist more interested in this project".

Do you actually listen to the writers? I'm beginning to debate that....

Consider the case we're presented with here: You put three, probably nearly finished scripts as offer, expecting the artist to shut his mouth and do what he's told.

1) Please start using "illustrator," not "artist"; my talents are just as artistic as an illustrators, just in a different field. This something you obviously don't appreciate...

2) Actually, I've got a good rep for listening to the illustrators I've talked to. Had you bothered actually bothering to use PM's, you would have found that out...

3) Literacy really is a wonderful thing...Had you bothered reading the notice, you would have found that all three scripts are finished (one does need to translated to comic book format, but is done), and one project merely needs a colorer.

If you expect artist to do that, the least you can do is pay him (which some writers in webcomics actually do).
When webcomics were younger, such partnerships started with two pals sitting in basement and one day deciding to do the comic together. So you'd get the comic where writer and artist were mostly equal (PA, Megatokyo, Mac Hall); Artist had his part in conception of the comic. Right now, most of webcomics that are collaborations are mainly works of writers who switch artists: as one gets fed up and leaves, they find another one.

Two of the three you listed are going strong with the original team...Interesting that...But, break-ups are the usual problem with collaborations in any field. Also, you're not allowing that most illustrators suck as writers; there is a definite advantage for the illustrator to work with a writer.

Dwelling on the breaking up issue: It happens. I've already broken up with three illustrators, and yet I'm not bitter about it (annoyed, maybe, but I've dealt with it). It's a fact of lie that things come up. Part of the challenge is dealing with it rather than letting it get you down; HN will be produced!

Writer does most of PR, he talks in front of the comic much more than artist, his name is credited first. I don't find this particulary fair unless writer was veeery popular before the start of the comic.

Reality Check: This is the only time the writer actually gets any credit for the comic, so let him have it. Otherwise, the illustrator gets all of the fame and glory...

In any case, there's a lot of writers wondering around, looking for artists while artists decide to rather write their own stuff even when they're not able to put down a coherent storyline. There's a lot of cases where artist loses interest quickly and wonders off leaving a writer in the role of betrayed idealist.

This is the definite advantage to which I refer. You're forgetting that, in any field that uses a writer, including films, any time that a writer truly works with a visual person, the teamwork creates something that is greater than the parts. Take PA: It's easy to tell which strips were written by Gabe and Tycho, because Gabe's usually suck. But, put the two together and you get a fun strip.

Yes, illustrators can write, and writers illustrate, but what's so bad about finding a way to utilize both of their strengths?

I suggested a few reasons why this is happening and therein lies the solution to the problem.
It would be very interesting to see how exactly the colaboration between Blackaby and her artist works, the mechanism of it, exchanging of ideas and stuff. Perhaps it is a usable model of writer/artist collaboration.

Had you bothered to read the scripts, instead of the obvious knee-jerk reaction of telling me how stupid the idea is, or even bothering to PM me, you would have found that I do listen to my illustrators, and that I do consider making the script (regardless of how short or long) interesting to the artist. I've had sequences and characters change due to input, and the scripts have become better for it.

The biggest problem has been, and will always be, exposition; it's may be boring, but it's needed on a lot of levels. But, if I'm having to defend it, then that shows how little you actually you care about the writing aspects...Weird that I see a lot of drawing tutorials, but few writing tutorials, especially when you realize how common good drawing is and the drawing tutorials almost always cover the same things, including the same basic instructions, once you allow that there, what, three schools it seems?

And those writing aspects are important. Far more than the drawing aspects; show me a webcomic that you would recommend to your friends that doesn't have a decent (or better) punchline (writing), interesting characters (writing), or a decent (or better) plot. Up to the challenge?

FR

[Noise Monkey]

Calm down, bucky.

[PieceOfSkunk]

I am confused as to the purpose of that wall of text, but I have already stopped thinking about it. I am now thinking about this. Good day.

[RPin]

I see people in desesperate need of a good ass fucking.

[Spriteville, USA]

And once again some fool on the internet gives themselves a bad name in front of an entire forum by having an inflated sense of self worth.

And screw that, I'm going to call you an artist.


P.S.
Before you get any "bright" ideas about calling me out on hipocracy, I don't give a damn. I don't claim to not have inflated self worth.

[McDuffies]

Here's where I really start paying attention to the concept: Not all advice is good...

All advice is, besically, a personal opinion, though some are based in experience more than others. But even if the advice is based in experience, it doesn't nessecarily work in every case because people differ. Advices are there to consider, maybe even to be put on test, but noone who's giving the advice expects everyone to accept it.
I wasn't even giving the advice as much as I was contemplating about some things that that I find often in webcomics. To clarify, nothing I said (except in one case) reffers specifically to you, but generally to people who wonder the internet trying to find the artist (pardon, "illustrator") for their script. As with any generalized thinking, particular person might find himself struck by being put in the same group, but if you don't apply to the description of the group, then you're not the one I was talking about. You know whether you fit the description better than I do.

Which is how to fail...Duh. And a good writer will have a good vision about what he wants, just as he will listen to the artist. If both sides fail to compromise, the team will dissolve.

You would be surprised about how often people aren't aware of that. I've seen many, many cases of writers looking for someone just to mindlessly illustrate something that they made up.
Professional comics go even further to the point where writer describes in camera angles, poses and details in the script, and leaves next to nothing ot artist's imagination. But that's their problem, they're getting payed for it so they have something in exchange for their creative freedom.
If you are aware of all that - good for you.

Good advice, but not in this situation. I tend to be visual, and that helps. Also, those scenes may be unattractive to the artist, but they are absolutely needed to make the comic live. Part of writing ANY script is to balance the boring exposition with the exciting action. Otherwise, all you have is boring, out-of-context art....

I can't add anything to that because I completely agree. In fact, that's just what I was saying.

Neat that you think that writers are multi-millionaires...

As it's said many times, if you put your money where your words are, people will take you more seriously. There are webcomic writers who pay their artists (and none of them is multi-millionaire), of course it's not much money for the artist but it all depends on how much work there is and how much worth the artist is on the market. It's like with webhosting: who should you pay for webhosting when there are free webhosts? For one, because you'll be taken more seriously. For two, because free webhosts tend to be less stabile (with the exceptions, of course).

Also, here's where we go into bad writer/good writer land; good writers value deadlines, bad ones don't. And what does the writer do if the artist misses the deadline?

That's not good/bad. That's reliable/unreliable. Good/bad depends on whether the finished product is good or bad. If the script is very good, but somewhat late, the writer is still good, he's just slightly unreliable.

Do you actually listen to the writers? I'm beginning to debate that....

Sometimes, until they get irate and start to debate on me instead on my arguements.

1) Please start using "illustrator," not "artist"; my talents are just as artistic as an illustrators, just in a different field. This something you obviously don't appreciate...

"Artist" is just the word that is usually used in those terms. It's a matter of convention, not a matter of semantics.

2) Actually, I've got a good rep for listening to the illustrators I've talked to. Had you bothered actually bothering to use PM's, you would have found that out...

Why would I PM you? I am not interested in illustrating your scripts.

3) Literacy really is a wonderful thing...

If you want to discuss with me, don't talk like a jerk. If you don't want to discuss with me, then be free to ignore my posts.

Had you bothered reading the notice, you would have found that all three scripts are finished (one does need to translated to comic book format, but is done), and one project merely needs a colorer.

If they're finished, that just strengthens my point that you're offering something that artist wouldn't have impact on. But that doesn't matter.
I really didn't read any of your stuff, frankly, because I can't care less about reading it. People asking for artists are walking through here all the time so, even if I was paying close attention out of sheer curiousity, at onepoint I'd have to stop.
I am drawing conclusions based on what we can often see on various message boards, and if you don't fit in that profile, then that's good for you and I apologuise for adressing you directly.

Two of the three you listed are going strong with the original team...Interesting that...

That's quite irrelevant.

But, break-ups are the usual problem with collaborations in any field. Also, you're not allowing that most illustrators suck as writers; there is a definite advantage for the illustrator to work with a writer.

Then again, you are not allowing that majority of people who get into webcomics are equally interested in writing comics as in drawing them. At least 90% of webcomics here are created by one person. People come to webcomics because they want a full control over their comics and not someone forcing ideas on them. They get enough of that in real life.
Sure, some illustrators suck as writers, but then again, a lot of writers suck as writers too. You have to practise a lot just to be able to draw something that is remotely a human shape. On the other hand, evreryone knows how to write letters, right? And you can't say whether the writing sucks or not until you've read it. In short, everyone can claim to be a writer while with artists, actual skills are much more obvious.
Thumbs up to you, you posted examples of your work for artists to judge whether your art is good or not. But as I said, I was just contemplating and you took what I was saying too personally.

Reality Check: This is the only time the writer actually gets any credit for the comic, so let him have it. Otherwise, the illustrator gets all of the fame and glory...

That is not true. Usually the one who started the comic is it's major representative and if there's a breakup, he's the person that continues on with another collaborator. My impression is that it's more often the writer than the artist. Logics applied: if we assume that the partnership is formed by one collaborator seeking another through forums and standard webcomic circles, then it's easy to see that, being that there are a lot, lot, lot more writers seeking for artists, the one who started the comic (initial idea) is more often the writer.

This is the definite advantage to which I refer. You're forgetting that, in any field that uses a writer, including films, any time that a writer truly works with a visual person, the teamwork creates something that is greater than the parts. Take PA: It's easy to tell which strips were written by Gabe and Tycho, because Gabe's usually suck. But, put the two together and you get a fun strip.

I am not forgetting that, that's what I've been saying all the time.

Yes, illustrators can write, and writers illustrate, but what's so bad about finding a way to utilize both of their strengths?

I'm not sure that I understood the point, but I am reading it as: if the illustrator already has the comic that he also writes, he'd better find the writer because the writer will write it better.
If I am interpreting it wrong, please ignore the next paragraph.
If I am interpreting it right, the answer is: 1. As I said, just about anyone can claim to be a writer and 2. For the same reason songs often sound better when they are sung by the songwriter: because there is a unique kind of passion in songwriter's performance, drawn from the personal experience that played a role in writing the song. The singer who isn't a songwriter is very often a bit detached from the song - he's just singing it.

Had you bothered to read the scripts, instead of the obvious knee-jerk reaction of telling me how stupid the idea is,

I would never use the word "stupid". I'd never stood to that level of communication.
Sorry for the knee-jerk reaction, but that's the burden you have to bear and the reaction that you'll get in a lot of places. Simply, there's too many people looking for illustrators around here.

or even bothering to PM me, you would have found that I do listen to my illustrators, and that I do consider making the script (regardless of how short or long) interesting to the artist. I've had sequences and characters change due to input, and the scripts have become better for it.

As I said twice by now, good for you. It's good that you didn't need my input because you knew all that it before.

The biggest problem has been, and will always be, exposition; it's may be boring, but it's needed on a lot of levels. But, if I'm having to defend it, then that shows how little you actually you care about the writing aspects.

Exposition can be made interesting too. There are stories (in any form of art) that are interesting all the way through, because writer found a way to make it funny even in parts where he has to delives a load of informations to a reader. I personally twitch upon hearing author saying something like "Bear with me in this part, it will get more interesting later" because that says to me that the writer didn't put enough effort to make that part funny.
Other problem is that writers sometimes tend to overexplain. They deliver informations that seem important to them, but they are generally irrelevant for the point of the story and boring for readers. Nobody wins in such cases, but it takes strong self-criticism to clean the script from such things.

Weird that I see a lot of drawing tutorials, but few writing tutorials, especially when you realize how common good drawing is and the drawing tutorials almost always cover the same things, including the same basic instructions, once you allow that there, what, three schools it seems?

I agree. Usually, the only way we can learn how to write is to look at stories we admire and try to analyze how their structire works.

And those writing aspects are important. Far more than the drawing aspects; show me a webcomic that you would recommend to your friends that doesn't have a decent (or better) punchline (writing), interesting characters (writing), or a decent (or better) plot. Up to the challenge?

Not that I disagree with you, but parodies work best when characters are brought down to cliches and for parodies, plot is usually irrelevant. But parody is a strange genre where conventional writing rules don't apply, so bringing them as an example doesn't change the point much.

[Noise Monkey]

so who's on top, the donkey or the person?

[Muncho]

Person. Donkeys are pretty heavy.

[McDuffies]

And once again some fool on the internet gives themselves a bad name in front of an entire forum by having an inflated sense of self worth.

And screw that, I'm going to call you an artist.


P.S.
Before you get any "bright" ideas about calling me out on hipocracy, I don't give a damn. I don't claim to not have inflated self worth.

Eh, I've seen much, much worse.

[Escushion]

See, this is why I don't like arguing with McDuffies, a preference I've never listed before, but you all should blend into your memories at this time. I want to be on his side .

[JexKerome]

Wrong choice, Escushion.

[Ghastly]

As a brazilian saying often states, "the ass of a drunk man knows no owner".

Fair warning: If you get drunk while wearing a frilly little french maid uniform Ghastly will be the legal owner of your ass.

[Ghastly]

Writer expects standard system used in professional comics to work, because this system favours writers (in terms of efforts, though not in terms of salaries). Artists, if they are any good, wouldn't be doing it on net and for no money, if they wanted to work according to this system. I heard a lot of writers complain: "Artist didn't respect the deadline/deal/left me hanging".

Neat that you think that writers are multi-millionaires...

It has nothing to do with being multi-millionaires.

Here's the thing. Drawing well is increadably labour intensive. Drawing a single 4 panel GGC strip takes me about 8 hours from pencils to finished art. Writing a single 4 panel GGC strip takes me only a couple of minutes.

You're not likely to find too many illustrators willing to bring their A-game to a project that doesn't compensate them for their efforts. The "a share of the profits" hook isn't going to do much when in all but a few exceptional cases webcomic profits arn't that much to begin with. Wether you're a multi-millionaire or not chances are not good that you'll be able to find a quality illustrator willing to work on your project for a share of theoretical potential profits.

There are a number of reasons that won't work.

1) Most webcomic artists already have too much on their plate as it is with their own series. Hell I've got more series ideas than I can even draw.

2) If a webcomic artist is willing to work for free/potential of profitshare then they're more likely to do such work either for A) a close friend, B)an already established writer with a proven track record, or C)a project which is really interesting and exciting to them.

I've been asked many times to do pro-bono artwork and I don't mean to sound cruel but in almost every case the answer is "no". It's not because I'm a greedy souless bastard. It's because my time is increadably valuable to me. I have to juggle it between my career as a musician, my family, and the two webcomics I'm currently creating as well as the future two webcomics I've got lined up to create. If I'm going to take time away from any of those things it's going to need to be compensated for. Real compensation, not theoretical potential compensation. I do take on pro-bono work from time to time for close friends or for projects that really excite me.

This is why I recommend learning how to draw the comics yourself. Being self sufficient is always an asset. Yes, it's a lot of work but trust me in the end its worth it.

There's a reason why you tend to see a lot of "Writer looking for Artist" posts and almost no "Artist looking for writer" posts in the webcomic communities. Artists usually have more work on their hands than they can deal with. Without a real incentive you're not too likely to attract a quality artist to your project.

So again, your best bet is to learn to draw. It's the road a lot of writers end up taking. Hell it's the road I took and look where it's gotten me. If you can write well then you've got a leg up because generally people will forgive bad artwork as long as the writing is quality. You audience will stay with you as you devlope your illustration skills.

Do you seriously find it that strange that people whose talents are already in demand arn't jumping at the opportunity to work for someone they've never heard of on a project they know nothing about for no compensitory benefits? C'mon it can't be that big a mystery.

[CaptainClaude]

I see people in desesperate need of a good ass fucking.

and you're just the ass to dish it out.

HA!

[RPin]

hipocracy

Don't you mean hypocrisy? The suffix -cracy denotes "form of government". And an hypocratic would be a person who rules from below if we were to follow the strict etymology of the word.

[Spriteville, USA]

hipocracy

Don't you mean hypocrisy? The suffix -cracy denotes "form of government". And an hypocratic would be a person who rules from below if we were to follow the strict etymology of the word.

While I genuinely appreciate your attempts to correct me (and in this specific example it definitly appears as if I have erred) I did in fact mean "hipocracy", that being a system of government ruled by the most "hip".

*cough* How the hell did I spell hypocrisy wrong? Man I'm dumb...*cough*

[Noise Monkey]

hipocracy

Don't you mean hypocrisy? The suffix -cracy denotes "form of government". And an hypocratic would be a person who rules from below if we were to follow the strict etymology of the word.

tell me more of this government. it intrigues me.