DC's Zuda online comics

NakedElf · Post by **NakedElf** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:42 am

Heh. It's all irrelevant to me because I'm pretty damn positive my work's just not good enough/widely appealing to win anyway. So I can safely sit on my butt and say whatever I want :P

But if I did have a story which I thought might be worth pitching, I might take that chance. At the very least, what's the harm in trying? I might get a nice ego-boost. I might get some free publicity. One in a million, I might actually get picked up by someone willing to give me money to do something I'd enjoy, and yet I could *still* do my wacky elf/penis crap on the side.

That said, yes, you probably *will* lose/ not have some amount of creator-control over the comic. With TNE, if I want to introduce something radically different from what's come before, well, I CAN. Even if my massive hoardes of raving fans* abandon me in disgust, I can still do it and no one can stop me (so long as I'm not breaking any laws.)

*ironic hyperbole

As for The Man... man, don't talk to me about The Man until you spend your entire fucking life living with *lawyers*... Trust me, if we could support ourselves working for DC instead of Big Law, we would. There are... degrees of man-ness to The Man.

Yeahduff · Post by **Yeahduff** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:14 am

bustertheclown wrote:
mcDuffies wrote:
On a personal note, I'd just about give my left nut (which is my favorite nut)
I think that I speak for everybody when I say that that note was just a tiny bit too personal.
That was a joke. I don't have a favorite.

Never been so disappointed in my life.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:58 pm

bustertheclown wrote: I don't really understand all of the hullabaloo about the fact that it's a corporate venture. Frankly, I'm surprised as hell that it's taken this long. Webcomics have been around long enough, and other large publishers, as well as every major syndicate, already have a web presence. So, why would it cause an uproar that DC would finally go "hey, what about this webernet we keep hearing about?" The reaction to this honestly makes no sense, except for the fact that those who seem to be railing most loudly against such a move seem to be the staunchest haters of the Man. (see Sorcery101's link above)

The way I see it, if you aren't the Man, and none of us here are, then you've got three primary options. You can spend your time working for the Man, fighting the Man, or hiding from the Man. I've spent the last ten years fighting and hiding, and I'm tired of losing and living in obscurity and poverty. Right now, all I want to do is draw for a living. I've got plenty of throw-away projects I could pass off, so it's not like I'd be feeding my pets to DC. If I ever expect to stop working crappy day jobs which leave me too little time to draw and live a life at the same time, then I've got to take every opportunity that crosses my path, even if it means "selling my soul", or "falling into a trap". (these last two paraphrases are not so much words typed on this here forum, but rather words present around the internet in response to the news of Zuda)

Well, like others said. I'm not for rejecting this thing outright, crying that webcomics are selling out, or being outraged in any way, but I'm far from being overwhelmed by happiness that webcomics are "getting big" and running to make a project proposition either. I can't say that I saw much of responses around webcomic community, but from what I saw, most falls under healthy caution, and those who are dead against, and not so much "Man haters" as "DC haters". The hate which isn't exactly with no ground, and definitely isn't paranoia like putting it as "hates the Man" case would make it out to be.

Well, your eagerness to get into industry is your personal thing, yet please, allow me room for suspicion about it's sincirety. If you do land a job with one of your throwaway projects, you'll be stuck doing that throwaway project for years, which means working for years on something that isn't very fulfilling. You might end up having as much time for your pet projects as you have now. The only difference is, when you work professionally as an artist, drawing more in your free time will be the last thing you'll want. I'm sure that art job looks like a dream right now, but once it's reality, things might look very different.
But it's your personal thing.

Anyways, you gotta keep in mind that most of comic authors are hobbists, which means that, even though going pro sounds like a nice oportunity for them, it's not something of life importance. So it's very logical and expected that they wouldn't accept professional work under just any conditions and that they'd be concerned about their artistic integrity (by which I mean, drawing what you feel like as opposed to drawing what someone tells you to).
In short, you're vocal about being ready to sacrifice part of artistic integrity (which is a fair choice like any other). That sounds like you agree that there is, potentially, some integrity to be sacrificed in this deal. Many people in webcomics chose not to sacrifise any integrity, and instead opt to keep steady jobs that serve to keep their passion (comics) as enjoyable as it is now. I don't see any flaw there.

Quazar451 · Post by **Quazar451** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:11 am

From Zuda's Website- just for information:

"When you submit your web comic to Zuda, you can be chosen immediately for a publishing contract or be entered into a competition where our users will pick a web comic to win a publishing contract. Also, since so many people have been asking about that contract — specifically the copyright — we asked our President and Publisher, Paul Levitz, to clarify. He said, "The copyright for each comic submitted to Zuda will be owned by its creator. DC will publish the winning/chosen comics under fairly conventional publishing agreements adapted to the peculiarities of the digital platform: initial payments for the work that is done, with royalties from revenues based on other uses, such as books, merchandise and movies/television shows. In the next couple of months the contracts will be going up on the site, and we're doing our best to make them as clear as possible, so people can make an informed decision about submitting their work"

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:16 am

Seems like a pretty interesting idea. If I had something new in the works that was actually webcomic related I might give it a go. It'd have to be a little better drawn than current projects, but I'm working on that anyway.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:21 am

Change the avatar, man! That baby's three years old by now!

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:23 am

Heh... maybe...

Kels · Post by **Kels** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:09 pm

*le sigh* If this were a year down the road, I'd be all over that. But I don't think I'm a good enough artist yet. Or storyteller, for that matter.

It'll come, but it's just too early yet.

Linkara · Post by **Linkara** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:38 pm

kels wrote:*le sigh* If this were a year down the road, I'd be all over that. But I don't think I'm a good enough artist yet. Or storyteller, for that matter.

It'll come, but it's just too early yet.

I say take a shot at least in whatever direction you feel you're stronger at. Their message board has threads for both artists looking for writers and writers looking for artists.

Bustertheclown · Post by **Bustertheclown** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:08 pm

mcDuffies wrote:
bustertheclown wrote: I don't really understand all of the hullabaloo about the fact that it's a corporate venture. Frankly, I'm surprised as hell that it's taken this long. Webcomics have been around long enough, and other large publishers, as well as every major syndicate, already have a web presence. So, why would it cause an uproar that DC would finally go "hey, what about this webernet we keep hearing about?" The reaction to this honestly makes no sense, except for the fact that those who seem to be railing most loudly against such a move seem to be the staunchest haters of the Man. (see Sorcery101's link above)

The way I see it, if you aren't the Man, and none of us here are, then you've got three primary options. You can spend your time working for the Man, fighting the Man, or hiding from the Man. I've spent the last ten years fighting and hiding, and I'm tired of losing and living in obscurity and poverty. Right now, all I want to do is draw for a living. I've got plenty of throw-away projects I could pass off, so it's not like I'd be feeding my pets to DC. If I ever expect to stop working crappy day jobs which leave me too little time to draw and live a life at the same time, then I've got to take every opportunity that crosses my path, even if it means "selling my soul", or "falling into a trap". (these last two paraphrases are not so much words typed on this here forum, but rather words present around the internet in response to the news of Zuda)
Well, like others said. I'm not for rejecting this thing outright, crying that webcomics are selling out, or being outraged in any way, but I'm far from being overwhelmed by happiness that webcomics are "getting big" and running to make a project proposition either. I can't say that I saw much of responses around webcomic community, but from what I saw, most falls under healthy caution, and those who are dead against, and not so much "Man haters" as "DC haters". The hate which isn't exactly with no ground, and definitely isn't paranoia like putting it as "hates the Man" case would make it out to be.

Well, your eagerness to get into industry is your personal thing, yet please, allow me room for suspicion about it's sincirety. If you do land a job with one of your throwaway projects, you'll be stuck doing that throwaway project for years, which means working for years on something that isn't very fulfilling. You might end up having as much time for your pet projects as you have now. The only difference is, when you work professionally as an artist, drawing more in your free time will be the last thing you'll want. I'm sure that art job looks like a dream right now, but once it's reality, things might look very different.
But it's your personal thing.

Anyways, you gotta keep in mind that most of comic authors are hobbists, which means that, even though going pro sounds like a nice oportunity for them, it's not something of life importance. So it's very logical and expected that they wouldn't accept professional work under just any conditions and that they'd be concerned about their artistic integrity (by which I mean, drawing what you feel like as opposed to drawing what someone tells you to).
In short, you're vocal about being ready to sacrifice part of artistic integrity (which is a fair choice like any other). That sounds like you agree that there is, potentially, some integrity to be sacrificed in this deal. Many people in webcomics chose not to sacrifise any integrity, and instead opt to keep steady jobs that serve to keep their passion (comics) as enjoyable as it is now. I don't see any flaw there.

It's not about breaking in, McDuffies. I'm already "broken in" to the industry. I've been working as an illustrator on a professional and semi-professional basis for the last eight years, and I've been publishing comics for about ten years. Where I'm coming from is more the standpoint that working in freelance illustration and independent cartooning is also maintaining a small business, and one that doesn't really yield a lot of cash for living, once all of the expenses are accounted for. That's a huge reason why I'm currently working full-time running a warehouse, and only part-time as an artist. I'm tired of not having enough time to draw, and I'm also tired of not having enough money when all I do is draw. So, the logical solution is to work for someone else for awhile, let them handle the business end, and focus on drawing for a regular paycheck.

And, no, it doesn't matter what I'm drawing. I'm not a hobbyist, and neither am I a fine artist. I'm a commercial artist, and I'm happy to do work for others, putting aside "pet projects". In fact, when left to my own devices, without a real deadline and an art director, I kinda let things wane. So, allowing for editorial input is not the same as letting go of "artistic integrity" for me. In many ways, it's the opposite. It's a challenge to bring forth the visions of others to their satisfaction. It's also a challenge to be able to create an enjoyable work which isn't necessarily your baby. A lot of people do it every day. That's entertainment.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:19 pm

All I'm saying is, when you say that you don't understand all the hollabaloo etc - well the explanation is easy: most of people around here are hobbists, thus in completely different situation, and with completely different goals. That's all.

Bustertheclown · Post by **Bustertheclown** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:17 pm

mcDuffies wrote:All I'm saying is, when you say that you don't understand all the hollabaloo etc - well the explanation is easy: most of people around here are hobbists, thus in completely different situation, and with completely different goals. That's all.

Yes, but that statement was not directed at the discussion within this thread specifically. It was directed at the discussion that was outside of this forum, on the blogs of industry insiders and watchdogs, not hobbyists. Zuda went online with a skeleton site, as a form of announcement of things to come, and that very same day, there came with it a glut of "stay away, they eat your children in front of you!" doomsaying. Even the more sensible voices around the net had an air of "creators might get the shaft here" in their assessment.

I realize that DC is mostly in the comics business these days in order to supplement the intellectual property needs of it's media corporation overlord. I was in the bookstore the other day, and I saw a DC comic I'd never even heard of with the splashy announcement "Soon to be a major motion picture!" on the cover. It kinda made me a little queasy. So, I get the reasoning behind such reactions, I really do. The internet is a frontier, filled with independent spirits. People 'round these parts don't much like the thought of big industrial robber barons making a land grab in their territory.

I would certainly recommend the same caution that everyone else in the universe is recommending. The only way people will come out on top in this deal is if they approach this opportunity as DC is most certainly approaching it; like a business deal. At some point, if a person wants to make a living from their work, they have to realize that art is also a business, and they are suddenly businesspeople. After all, in the interviews and soundbites I've read, the DC reps aren't even saying "webcomics" or "comics" or "art". They keep calling it "intellectual property". That's what this is to them, a commodity, pure and simple. So, anyone who might think to do this has to know that they are just providers of a commodity, and should approach the situation as such, like farmers presenting their tomatoes and ears of corn to the green grocer. That's where the horror stories are most often generated, when someone goes into a business deal with unrealistic expectations about what they might have to let go of, and then gets burned. As with any form of work, if you're prepared to make concessions to get the job, and learn as much as you can about what you're getting yourself into, then you should be alright. It's not about the art. It's about the art of the deal.

Still, when the site came online with a lot of "more info to come" messages, and a launch date three months away, I still feel it's too early for people to just pass judgement on the project based on fears of what kind of monster it might become. For all we know, it could be a model that revolutionizes the business of webcomics for the the better. So, no, I still don't understand what the hullabaloo is about, and I doubt anyone here would be able to explain it to me in a way that would make me understand. To me, even coming from hobbyists, such knee-jerk reactions based almost exclusively on the size of the company parenting the project seems irrational. At least give the damned thing time to fall from grace before casting stones.

I think that's all I have to say, but I thought I had made enough statements about this weeks ago. You just have a way of baiting me back into a debate, McDuffies.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:49 pm

You're easy target to bait.

But people around webcomics aren't that much different than these here on CG. They're also people with more or less comfortable careers, who indeed dream of a comic career, but aren't desperate for it. Outside of CG, on WCN and elsewhere where people pay their own hosting, you can find even more well-situated people. So you can say that they have a sort of vision from which they don't wanna step back, and you can say that this stubborness sets them back in pursue of comic career, but if they are already well-situated, then they can perfectly well afford sticking to this vision.
On the other hand, we've all heard of horror stories about a big fat editor scribbling with red marker right on top of original panels of one Wallace Wood and similar stories. It's not just DC's size, it's its reputation, and reputation of business as a whole.
I gotta agree that I'm intrigued about what it's like working under editor, or even on someone else's project, I like challenges. But if my perspective was working all mu life under such editors, I'd refuse. Cause though I try to act professionally, I'm not a commercial artist.