mcDuffies wrote:
Well, either a joke or Mookie avoiding to have to deal with it. But it's not all that, what about rape or the mentioned threesome? Sex has happened, only it was never normal, two-way sex between two people in normal romantic relationship, it was always some bastardization of it.
Yeah, Johndar answered that for me- Gregory and Pam were about to do the naughty before they were interrupted, and it wasn't a gross or evil sex, either- it was just...well, sex. Also, Miranda and the bard-dude had sex at some point during the comics as well (I think the War in Hell arc), and that wasn't bastardized; just sex between two people who loved each other.
mcDuffies wrote:
Although I has a chuckle when I saw the zillion Luna's tending to Dominic and his "Leg of Love". I didn't consider it creepy in the least, though if they had been naked or holding bed toys, the creep factor would be there for me. As it is, it was just a bunch of Luna's in lingerie.
Do you ever fantasize about your love interest multiplied twenty times? I don't that situation would be far from sexually arousing. At that point I was about to concluded that Mookie doesn't even know what a proper sexual fantasy looks like. And he's supposed to be a geek.
Heh heh, I'd have to say, no. But it's not the first time I've seen a guy fantasizing about multiple copies of his love interest, so I guess if there is a creep factor, I'm kinda desensitized. Besides, ever seen revenge of the nerds? (I think that's what it's called). At one point, the nerd says to the beautiful gal, "Jocks only think about sports. But geeks only think about sex." Maybe that has an impact.
mcDuffies wrote:
You have to admit, when he does end up making major plot holes, he manages to fix them rather nicely. (for the most part...like someone else here mentioned, the explanation for why Luna never got her teeth fixed was sort of odd.)
But isn't it a problem that he has to fix them in the first place? Many a comic don't have plot holes to begin with, thanks to planning ahead and thinking through better. One of the more irritating things about DD is, for me, how many storylines end up with weeks of strips of characters standing and talking, trying to rationalize all mistakes that Mookie made during that storyline out of pure negligence. Explanations are rather unconvincing most of the time, by pure nature of being made up after the storyline was written, which tends to be obvious.
It might be that he could explain the situations in the middle, but that would kill the rising action, so he waits until the end to jump into explanation and review of the events that just happened. Yes...it's all a very clever plot to not kill the action parts...
mcDuffies wrote:
... Besides, I think you focus way on Mookie's nose too much- watch Escaflowne, and you'll appreciate his itty-bitty schnoze!!
But there's a difference between conscious choice of style and one that artist is settled on because he doesn't know any better. DD's style doesn't work, in fact: rules of facial anatomy completely change from anatomy to front view. They're different characters from profile than from front. That art style jerks reader back and forward.
Now you can say that it's a style that you can "get used to" or the style "redeemed by quality of writing" if you will, but in ideal case, art isn't supposed to hold back the writing. Good comics don't neccesary require brilliant art, but it has to support story and function with it. Writing and art are supposed to make greater than the sum of it's part, and in DD it's not the case. If you feel the need to have to justify the style, then there's a problem. If the style doesn't function, change it (no matter how much you love it). Profile-anfas difference isn't the only problem there, either. Check the latest near-sex encounter of Luna and Dominic, for how much he doesn't know how to draw anatomy once clothes are actually off. Hell, you get one ridiculous moment where Luna's breasts instantly get bigger the moment she takes her clothes off.
Other complaints about art are that he keeps a page layout that doesn't lent itself to an action comic: panels too small to connain larger scenes, layout too unchangable to convey and dynamics. He always draws people from one exact angle and only occasionally zums in and out; A film counterpart would be a film that was shot entirely with one camera standing in the corner of the room - very bad for a comic that's attempting to have action elements, but not very good choice for dramatic comic either.
I find Mookie's art goes with his writing style. The style of his drawing matches the content of the web comic- it's not too cartoony for the drama, and it's not too detailed for the light parts. And I've also looked at several of his faces, but I don't see what you mean about the anatomy changing- when you look at his side view, front view and 3/4 view faces, the anatomy lines up- eyes, nose and mouth are where they're supposed to be. But I went back to the comic you mentioned, where Luna's chest gets bigger, and I see what you mean. Heh, there's definitely a change in sproingyness there. But that could be due to Luna straightening her posture once she has her shirt off. Or they could be inflatable.
mcDuffies wrote:
But being inspired by a theme and including it in your plot is way different then watching a movie about an african mocking spanish people for their parking skills, and then having a scene in your comic where a member of one race mocks a member of another race for their parking skills. (or carriage skills?) Everyone gets inspiration from the randomest places, and sometimes you're inspired to use an old theme that's already been done to death, but that doesn't make you a portable photocopier.
But he never lets himself be inspired by life. If you watch a movie about race conflict and base your storyline on what you've learned from film, and yet your own knowledge of race conflicts is either limited or you don't care enough to employ it, then the result is bound to look like lifted from pop culture, simply because it isn't truthful or insightful about those issues. Simply said, it's a second-hand information - dulled, cut at corners, fake.
Well actually there is one reocurring theme from his life and that is that constant geek/bully conflict, and even that is more of his daydream about geek beating a bully with the force of his intelligence, may as well have seen it from 80ies teen comedies.
Actually, Mookie had the racial stuff in there before he watched the movie- in Sin City, Amelia was planning on having Bumper framed for rape and murder blah blah because he was a semashi, which, from the looks of it, appears to be a minority. And everyone always used to call Luna an orc, a derogatory term because everyone hates orcs. He had something building with the racism before he watched the movie, but after the movie, he made it even more...I dunno, potent? It wasn't based completely from the movie, but he made it more dramatic then it probably would have been after he watched the movie. The geek-bully conflict is overdone, I agree with you on that- but because most my friends were bullied (bwa, I was wallpaper so no one ever noticed me), it hits closer to home. "Yes. I'm sure I'll be awed by the brilliance of your vengeance...it means revenge."
mcDuffies wrote:
Just like having a damsel in distress has been done so many times. And having a man come to save her. And having magic and talking animals- done to death. Or magic healers. Or revenge plots. Or plots involving murder. Or love, or friendship, or betrayal- done to death! But if Mookie is ripping off everyone around him to make up his plots, then isn't everyone who uses anything similar also doing the same thing? If a random artist were to write about a plot involving an evil big brother, would that be ripping off all the countless people who have already employed that particular mould?
But isn't there a limit of how much one can take without putting an original twist on it or adding anything of his own? The way you put it, it sounds as if there isn't such thing as originality or unoriginality because heck, everyone's gonna use some element that's already been used before. But it's really a matter of "how", and even more, "how much". With as much of conventions as you counted just now, and with them reoccuring through the comic all the time (I mean, using "damsel in distress" may be accounted for normal flow of ideas, but using it every once in a while in the same comic pretty much shows that writer doesn't know many new ways to construct a plot)
I exaggerated the "nothing left in the pool of originality" to make a point, and that's the fact that a lot of different authors use similar themes- an evil family member, a recurring evil bad guy, a character making the same stupid jokes (Magic School Bus, peoples! "Caaaarlooos!"). It's like saying that a certain group of people is ripping off another group of people because they're driving a car of the same colour. Yes, Mookie uses a bit more of the genre themes, but there are several other web comics that do the same. Like 8-bit theatre. Cross-dressing, stupid bad-guy-leaders, a stupid ally that won't die- but the story is still humorous. Saying a web comic is bad because they use too much of the theme genres seems like a weak argument.
mcDuffies wrote:
What's 'abundantly clear' is actually more of a personal opinion. I enjoy the story, the art, and the characters, and although that may make you shake your head in disbelief, there's lots of other people who share my opinion. Granted, quantity of people sharing one opinion doesn't make that opinion any more valid- take fanatical religions as proof of that- but it indicates that the 'loose collection of crap' is enough for Mookie to make a business out of. I don't know, it's cool that I can turn my computer on every morning and there's a new installement uploaded and waiting.
As far as I'm concearned, it's perfectly fine when you say that the comic is amusing, fun, and therefore you read it. Call it a passtime, guilty pleasure or that-time-when-you-just-want-to-turn-the-brain-off or whatever, we all consure all sorts of art that we know aren't the best we could get for that money. As far as I'm concearned, the comic is practically unreadable - to get to anything even remotely interesting, I usually have to bare with strips of people yelling and moralizing at each others and speaking aloud Mookie's simplified moral views, either that or strips of covering plot holes that I'm not even interested in in that point. And even if you do get to something interesting, it's likely that Dominic will suddenly go blind and the rest of the scene is going to be cop-out all-black panels with speech bubbles.
To me, the most appareny clue was, in last month or so I met many DD fans alienated from the comic, dissapointed throuh past several years, with both where the comic is going and how Mookie deals with fans. Most of them still read the comic in hope something will eventually get better, and really my only advice for them is to stop reading. Since he's allegedly blind and deaf to criticism even from fans, and if webpage stats are the only comic success measure he cares for, then decreasing those numbers is the only way to get his attention.
Heh heh, so you were disappointed that you didn't get to see the rest of Luna? Yeah, I think that would be the best solution- if you don't like a web comic, and haven't liked it for several years, what is the point of going back and looking at it to see if it's gotten better? The path has a direction, and if people don't like it...go look at other web comics. If he doesn't listen to fans, as people on here have indicated, then stop trying to talk to him. If he is counting his success by the number of people that view his web comic each day, then you're absolutely right- the only way to communicate your displeasure at him would be to stop going and looking at his site. Then, once his stats go down, he'll begin listening to the people who are displeased with him. The other end would be that his stats don't go down enough to be noticeable...I was a reader, and I never really bothered with his forum. I imagine there are a number of readers who go there, once a day, check out the new page and then go on with their daily business. If there's a greater number of people who do that than there are people who are outraged at Mookie's direction, then I doubt ignoring him will make him stop writing web comics...
Dominic Durgan wrote:leperdoctor wrote:I always imagined the sex (or lack thereof) to be a recurring sort of joke
Funnily enough, I always imagined Dominic Deegan to be a sort of ongoing joke.
Because it is...it's main purpose was, after alll, a gag strip...
Dominic Durgan wrote:As had been said, plot holes occur when you've either a) forgotten something you've written a long time ago; or b) haven't been paying the slightest bit of attention to what you were writing five minutes ago. Deegan has far too much of the latter.
Simply taking a moment to look at what he's writing would mean that Mookie would understand what a colossal mess he's churning out. And, in a perfect world, stop the damn thing and make everyone happy.
But if reading it is making you unhappy, why do you continue...? You can solve this entire crisis by not reading it. Besides, him stopping his comic wouldn't make everyone happy- what about the other half of his readers that enjoy the web comic? Besides, if he stopped you wouldn't have a web comic!
Dominic Durgan wrote:leperdoctor wrote:Man, paladins suck. They can't do anything cool. Except scream in moral outrage and charge in. At least White Mage had a cool hammer.
Here's another thought for the church; maybe he mentioned it because he's planning on returning to that plot point soon enough. Kinda like how he foreshadowed that Neileen was planning something with the Dominic-Luna relationship long before he actually engaged with the story, and like how he mentioned that Siggy had a rival but you don't get to see said rival until way later in the comic. After all, cramming in all explanations about every facet of the world his characters as based in just gets confusing and boring to read. Having them explained when it's time is better for the readers, so although it seems like a gaping plot hole at present time, he'll probably return to it eventually, especially if Gregory decided he's had enough time playing around. (he mentioned that he wanted some time to himself before he joined the church).
Saying Deegan has "foreshadowing" and "returning to plot points" is a bit insulting. It's more along the lines of "wait I wrote about WHAT? Christ, better cover my ass and mention it again." It's sloppy, amateur work. There's no cohesion, it's just built up patchwork.
But I guess if Mookie can prove to me that he's not just winging this entire thing, then I'll eat my own words. But since he never replies to e-mails, or even acknowledges the existence of people who dislike his work, that's unlikely.
Ah hah, but he does have foreshadowing! For instance, a long time ago there was a strip where Neileen made some dubious comment about Dominic finding out what it's like without Luna- and now, many strips later, the plot is Neileen trying to steal Luna away from Dominic. Ta daa. Foreshadowing. ^^
Dominic Durgan wrote:
leperdoctor wrote:Mmm. The ones I had in mind weren't minor characters, but they certainly weren't major players either, so the point that I had made becomes moot then, if you were simply referring to the characters in the main cast.
Consider a character's... uh... character to be much like their visual composition. You start off with a stick figure skeleton, add on some basic body mass, face shape, then move on to a face, clothes, haircut, etc.
Their personality works in much the same way. You cannot glean any information about someone if their entire role in the narrative is to be a cameo, some guy who goes "Look, up in the sky!" Their purpose is to move things along, or to provide some service that the main characters cannot fulfil themselves. Superman cannot yell out "Look, up in the sky!" Neither can the villain. It's the domain of the single-panel wonder, the average joe, pointing for all his worth and being visually relieved that Supes is on his way to save the day.
Yeah, but these characters weren't minor- like I said, they were kind of medium-rare. For instance, the little leaflet person was one of my examples- she was a side-character, important in two story arcs, and she was never beaten, raped or physically abused...and she was FEMALE!!
And not all bystanders were happy to see the supes on their way. That person...Penelope the pain was really hissy about the entire Deegan family, and she's a minor character.
Dominic Durgan wrote:
In the mind of a writer, background characters can have so much more. Personalities, histories, the works. But so far as the narrative is concerned, they are nobodies. Nothing. Their entire existence spans from when they first appear on panel to when they leave. It's pointless saying that, say, the original mayor of Bathis was a female character who didn't get beat up or whatever. She was "on screen" for two comics and only there to say "WELL DONE DOMINIC DEEGAN YOU ARE AWESOME."
There's no point in making a huge character profile on a character that's only gonna be there for less than a strip...it's a waste of time. Having said this, a lot of minor characters in the Deegan-verse have backgrounds despite this, which makes it interesting. The story arc on Stunt and Bumper is a prime example- they're still only minor characters (maybe medium-rare now), but there was an arc devoted to their friendship. Although it didn't delve much into their past, it certainly showed their different qualities.
Dominic Durgan wrote:A lot of stories have characters beaten up to add drama because they are as terrible as Dominic Deegan. I admit, violence can be good in terms of narrative, but not if you constantly rely on it like Mookie does. Then again, Mookie knows nothing of narrative beyond what he's seen in animu~.
The suicide thing was pure AAAANGSST. Like I said before: when it's not a main character suffering a beating, it's AAAAAAAANGST.
So...are all other stories that mix violence into their drama automatically categorized as bad? There are some that make it look really cool. And then there are others...Dragonball Z, cough...that just...yeah. 'Nuff said.
Dominic Durgan wrote:Nimmel is a prime example of having a retarded name. I mean, Feenix? Why not just name him Cloud Phynal-Phantazee? Anyway, he's also a prime example of AAANGST. I'd bet money that Mookie has no Goddamn idea what drives someone to suicide, or has ever been legitimately depressed. And even if that is true, by some cosmic chance, still doesn't change the fact he can't articulate it anyway due to him being a very, very bad writer.
Yeah...I can't really argue with you here, because I agree with this point of view. It's like having "vampyres" in your story (note the substituted 'y', which makes them that much more original and unique than the common 'vampire'). Having characters with names after common things with the letters changed it actually a pet peeve of mine, so it's kind of funny you should mention that...mostly because I used to cruise around on Fanfiction.net several years back, and many people wrote themselves into stories by making themselves what they considered to be l33t names. Falkon...Wolfe...Draghon...really fuggin lame. When I read the name on DD, I was like, >.<;;
Wait, I can still argue! I don't agree with the second half of what you said. In the context, Nimmel had a legitimate reason for considering suicide. He was a bit of a loner, and when a girl tried to make friends with him, he basically told her off because he wanted someone more 'pretty' and 'popular' to come along. Soon enough, the dude-with-no-eyes comes by and kills everyone- including the girl that tried to befriend him. Nimmel survived because he told the d.w.n.e. where Miranda had gone- something he did out of fear for his life. Then he got the guilty vibes because not only did he send a madman towards the professor of his school and through all the innocents between, but he also felt guilty because the friendly girl died. On top of that, he survived while a number of people died- because, he felt, he was cowardly enough to tell where the prof had gone. The only thing physically damaged was his eye. Anyways...it's not really a situation most people have to contend with (madman with no eyes and an extendable hand normally doesn't terrorize school children these days), but that's why he felt he had to commit suicide. You also have to keep in mind that people with severe mood disorders (namely, depression) usually have thoughts of suicide- and the friendly seer girl had seen that Nimmel was really unhappy. I'm not saying everyone who's attacked by a dude-with-no-eyes should go jump off a bridge, but under the circumstances, it seemed like a plausible action for Nimmel's character to take.
Dominic Durgan wrote:leperdoctor wrote:The angst caused from Deegan having a necromancer for a brother is more because Jacob is out to kill everyone, as opposed to the typical "Poor me, my brother is evil, I must mope about it now." Dominic has never actually done that, I don't believe.
Not moping, but he does this thing where he stares off into the distance and frowns. Mookie thinks it makes him look serious, I bet. Just makes him look like he's trying to take a difficult dump.
No. No, you're thinking of DBZ again. "EEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRYYYYEEEEAAA!" And extend that by several minutes...
Dominic Durgan wrote:I was simply going by "ones with most screen time and character development who also aren't dead". Well, character development as far as Dominic Deegan is concerned. There's a reason you can abbreviate the title to "2D".
Hey, I did that and I came out with more male characters!!
Dominic Durgan wrote:
Ahahahahaha, oh God, you're not serious, are you? Please, point me to something that's
not stolen wholesale from popular, contemporary sources. I'll go easy on you and say that it doesn't have to be original, because that'd be needle-in-haystack time.
Okies...
http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2004-11-16
Just to point out, the point of my previous link was to prove that Mookie did have rules for his world, and the URL there proves it. This link proves he has something that's not stolen from popular, contemporary artists...Klo Tark. ^^ And he's original.
Dominic Durgan wrote:leperdoctor wrote:The rules and the world haven't really changed- it's been added onto. For instance, take Naruto- they all start out in one village, and eventually you get to learn more and more about the surrounding lands. That's what Mookie has done; you start out in the little village of stupid people, then through travelling and adventures you learn more and more about the surroundings- the same is true for most anime, and most other stories, for that matter.
God only knows why Deegan started off living in a village seemingly populated by completely retarded individuals. You'd think they'd be, y'know, capable enough to cope with living in such a difficult environment. Maybe it was a Gotham thing and they were trying to drive him out.
One word: MONEY!! Besides, seeing as it was his first story arc, starting off in a town filled with morons is ripe for humour.
Dominic Durgan wrote:
I'd compare Deegan more with Pokemon than with Naruto. In Pokemon, Dr. What'shisface starts off telling Ash that there are 150 types of horrible vermin in the world and that's it. Then about five billion episodes later, he finds out there are like five hundred more. And there always have been. Maybe Dr. What'shisface is just an idiot, who knows. But that's the way Deegan works. Things just get bolted on with little thought of what came before. The only reason it's not that jarring is because of the twin factors of Mookie stealing everything and Mookie being such a bland writer.
If they had started off with a huge number of pokemon right away, they'd be hard pressed to name and describe them all. By starting off with a more manageable number, they were able to see how audiances took their story, then expand on that- by having Ash wander around, and then adding another season where, guess what? More Pokemon!! That way they could pump out more games and more stories based on the powers of these new pokemon. Blah. And Mookie doesn't steal everything.
Dominic Durgan wrote:leperdoctor wrote:Because it started out as a gag-a-day strip, most the jokes were based on inprobability.
Stop me if I'm wrong, but aren't gag-a-day strips supposed to have a gag a day and be, I dunno,
funny?
Humour is subjective; what you find funny, a good portion of people are bound to not find funny, and vice versa. Besides, if people didn't find the first couple of strips funny, they wouldn't have continued to read...but they did. Meaning they recognized the humour. *shrug* It's a personal preference thing.
Dominic Durgan wrote:leperdoctor wrote:Lots of web comics are based on the artists trying out things that would certainly be cool.
And lots of webcomics suck. Besides, you missed my point. It's nothing to do with the
start or
premise of a story. It's to do with dumb things happening just because it'd be "cool", regardless of plot or narrative. Like if Penny Arcade suddenly had Gabe and Tycho gain supernatural powers and start fighting vampires or aliens or wizards. The mentality behind such a decision would it "wouldn't it be
cool if this happened?!" But it's a nine-year-old's way of thinking, and it just doesn't jibe.
No...lots of web comics employ that tactic because it works. And where exactly does something just randomly occur in Dominc Deegan that completely jars the storyline?
And...I just noticed something that I wanted to point out...
Dominic Durgan wrote:When he ain't pilfering from the Wizards of the Coast, he's fellating Japan as much as possible. Who needs an individual artistic style when you can just borrow from Japan? Nevermind that the style he's ripping off is used in cheap, budget animu and designed for ease of animation. Nevermind that since Deegan ain't animated he could stand to have a decent profile. No, heavens no! That's effort! That's skill! That's everything that Mookie hasn't got and never will have. To come up with one tiny, miniscule idea that's all his own is so utterly beyond him it scares him. He can't grow as a writer nor an artist because of it. He's Peter soddin' Pan, the eternal child, unwilling to grow up and become anything more than a weak, spineless sack of crap that can't do anything but parrot back what he sees and what he reads.
You're very morally outraged at the fact that Mookie apparently steals from everyone around him...so I just wanted to point out the irony that your entire web comic is a copy from his web site, with some textual tampering added in for the fun of it, and a paste onto your website- which is set up exactly like his. Seeing as you've mentioned, in many places as a matter of fact, how irritated it makes you that Mookie 'steals' from everyone, I find your argument to be a real contradiction in itself.
