Orange Revolution's 1st chapter is up

LibertyCabbage · Post by **LibertyCabbage** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:07 am

Orange Revolution is an action-noir comic that I write that, at 21 pages, has just completed its first chapter. There's blood, violence, and cursing in it, so if you're easily offended then you should probably stay away. However, if you aren't, then maybe you'll kinda like it, or something! I'm also looking for criticisms and critiques, or any general comments. Thanks!

Megaskunjii · Post by **Megaskunjii** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:21 pm

Honestly, I'm not quite sure to make of this comic. It has an interesting art style, but the story-telling style isn't my taste.

It's definitely worthy of being pitched though.

LibertyCabbage · Post by **LibertyCabbage** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:48 pm

Uh, could you be more specific on what it is about the narrative style that you don't like?

Glambourine · Post by **Glambourine** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:41 am

I like how everyone but the main characters has some kind of scary, blank, smiley face. I love the lighting. I love the cowboy. I love the fact that everyone is named after a fruit.

What I don't like: it's kind of hard to follow what's happening (though that may be just me; I can't follow fight scenes well at all); I hate NIN quotations in comics (that's definitely just me); I'd like to know more about the background of the world in the comic itself. Right now I'm mostly just seeing fights, which are cool, but which don't tell me anything about who these people are, what their motivation is, even what differentiates them from each other (beyond the fact that Orange hates the government and Line doesn't.)

I'll keep checking it out.

Ly · Post by Ly » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:42 pm

Okay, so I checked it out and here's what I've got for you:

The Good: Definately talented. And you kept me interested in a non-comedy. I usually don't read non-comedy strips.

To work on: Story development would be a huge plus right now. I was utterly confused about a lot of it. Everyone looks the same except Lime and Orange.. and the cowboy. Why? Who exactly are we supposed to be rooting for? And where the hell did Lime get two swords and Orange a big ass mallet o.O? That's all I have for you. None of this is bad. It just confused me so I'd like clarification to better understand the story.

Overall: I think it's neat, the art style is definately unique and cool. I just was really confused about what was going on, and the darkness of the coloring made it difficult to discern certain shapes.

LibertyCabbage · Post by **LibertyCabbage** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:35 pm

Glambourine: More specifics on the problems with the fight scenes would be useful, since, considering it's an action comic, they're pretty essential. I can't apologize much for the NIN quote, as I'm a big fan and I thought it was pretty tasteful and relevant. There'll be a lot more quotes in the comic's future: it's a stylistic thing I'm going for (the first page had a quote too.) As for the lack of character development, I disagree that the fights are useless here, as I feel that their behavior, attitudes, and fighting styles communicate their personalities to some degree. I'm kind of skeptical towards your critique since you state that Limeboy doesn't hate the government although I feel that, mostly from his dialogue with Randall (the "ivy-league cowboy"), it's pretty obvious that he has a rather hostile and condescending attitude towards his employer, even directly insults his boss's intelligence, which Randall is too stupid to realize. I don't wanna be rude, but there isn't much dialogue in the comic so you should be paying more attention to it, and if you missed something this overt then I don't feel that responsible that you didn't pick up on the more subtle details either.

Ly:
1) What's the most obvious reason why everyone in a society would look and act identical?

2) Is it really my role as the writer to tell you which people to like and dislike? Are there really always clear "good guys" and "bad guys" ?

3) That's a good question, one you should be asking yourself since I decided not to explain it here in the comic. Use what you know to make an educated guess.

I know that not everything in the comic is explained (at least, not yet), but it's not my role to babysit the audience and tell them what to think about everything. Some things are explicitly stated in the comic; other things aren't, and it's your role as the critical reader to try to fill in the blanks to the best of your abilities. You should keep in mind that the things you explicitly know and don't know are probably deliberately done so, and so you should ask yourself why the author chose to withhold or provide such information.

Thanks for the comments, both of ya.

Glambourine · Post by **Glambourine** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:47 pm

LibertyCabbage wrote:Glambourine: More specifics on the problems with the fight scenes would be useful, since, considering it's an action comic, they're pretty essential. I can't apologize much for the NIN quote, as I'm a big fan and I thought it was pretty tasteful and relevant. There'll be a lot more quotes in the comic's future: it's a stylistic thing I'm going for (the first page had a quote too.) As for the lack of character development, I disagree that the fights are useless here, as I feel that their behavior, attitudes, and fighting styles communicate their personalities to some degree. I'm kind of skeptical towards your critique since you state that Limeboy doesn't hate the government although I feel that, mostly from his dialogue with Randall (the "ivy-league cowboy"), it's pretty obvious that he has a rather hostile and condescending attitude towards his employer, even directly insults his boss's intelligence, which Randall is too stupid to realize. I don't wanna be rude, but there isn't much dialogue in the comic so you should be paying more attention to it, and if you missed something this overt then I don't feel that responsible that you didn't pick up on the more subtle details either.

I never said the fights were useless; I said "I don't get much out of fight scenes." Part of that has to do with the fact that I just don't find fight scenes that interesting--Steve Ditko's fight scenes a rare exception.

I can see what you mean about the fights revealing character--I certainly learned a lot about Orange when he pulled out a giant goddamned hammer and had that crazy grin. But here's my ultimate critique: if you're putting almost the entire burden of characterization on wordless panels, most of them action panels, then your storytelling needs to be way clearer. For example: http://orangerevolution.comicgenesis.co ... 70101.html.

I had zero idea what was happening on this page when I initially looked at it. After I studied it for a good while, I could figure it out--Orange lunges at Lime, Lime coolly and precisely breaks Orange's claw thing, something else happens, Lime knocks Orange into a car. But I'm still hazy on a lot of details like the position of the characters relative to one another, exactly how Lime is maneuvering to slice off Orange's claws, where this car came from, and what's happening in the last panel. And I was willing to figure all of that out because you said you were skeptical about my argument and asked me to provide more specific details about the fight scenes. Casual readers are not necessarily going to do that. They are more likely to leave.

The reason I like Ditko fights is because they're so totally grounded in place and time, and because you can see every minor tactical move in a fight--weight shifting to throw someone off balance here; a hand suddenly grabbing a wrist there as a prelude to a throw. Buy, borrow or steal a copy of "Essential Dr. Strange, Volume 1" and read the issue called "The Pincers of Power"--in like ten pages, it's one of the most well-done fight scenes I've ever seen in comics, and you can follow it perfectly even if you white out all of Stan Lee's text (which I recommend anyway). It's visual storytelling, clear visual storytelling, and if you don't have that, your comic has problems no matter how much text you've got. If you don't have much text, though, your problems get abruptly worse.

On another point: what the hell, man? You are saying that if only I, the lowly reader, can pay sufficient attention to things that are Obvious (and I *know* that Limeboy disrespects his employer; the fact that I said I didn't know enough about the characters doesn't mean that I somehow missed this, that I wasn't paying enough attention to the words)--that if I can pay this attention, I might appreciate the true beauty you have encoded in the comic for the most faithful and keen-eyed to unlock, the sugary-sweetest flesh inside the bitterest rind of cactus. That's just not a useful attitude to have when it comes to comics, or to anything you're putting out into the world to entertain total strangers. And it is kind of rude to say that if I have a problem with your comic, it's due to my not devoting enough time to thinking about said comic. That's essentially placing yourself into a realm outside of criticism altogether, which is fine--but then why ask for criticism in the first place? The whole point of criticism is to find out what readers think about your comic so that you can see how it looks to someone who isn't as invested in it as you, and you're saying my critique isn't valid effectively because I'm not as invested in it as you. That is, in fact, a rude thing to do.

Man, LC, I like you basically: you were one of the first people to link to my comic back in the day; you helped me out when I needed guest art recently; you seem pretty cool and as far as fight comics go this one has a lot to like about it, concept-wise. Why you gotta tell me, in so many words, that I am not good enough to critique your comic when you requested critiques?

(I am still going to read it, tho')

LibertyCabbage · Post by **LibertyCabbage** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:06 am

You're completely right. I really have to apologize; I had no grounds to insult you like I did. I'm pretty hot-headed right now about how poorly the comic is doing, and I stupidly and unfairly let this spill over into my response. I did link you, and do the fan art for you, and it's because I like your writing and I respect you, and then here I am attacking you and trying to assert myself and generally being an ass. I'm especially displeased with myself right now, as I'm almost always calm or apathetic, and now I let myself get upset and I acted like a fool. So, I'm sorry, and now that I feel humbled I can hopefully respond in a dignified manner.

So, part of my frustration and confusion stems from the conceptualization of the comic, when I thought it would be simple enough to be accessible to a mainstream audience while having enough substance to please more advanced readers. It should be noted that this was being developed amid the tremendous failure of my previous comic, Deep, which is pretty much hyper-symbolic abstract garbage that no one even bothered to try to dissect. So, hence sprung Orange Revolution, the violent action comic for the masses. I was actually mostly concerned with it being too crude and asinine. But... I failed, and I feel like, the same as my other comics, that it's too weird and intricate and no one understands it.

I really like making comics and I don't wanna stop, but it seems like whenever I'm feeling really down and come up with some amazing concept to redeem myself, it flops. It happened with the re-design of Freedom Fries , it happened with Deep, and it seems it's the same thing with OR, and it's my 3rd strike (oh, and my aborted fetus of a comic, Afflicted, as well, so it's really a 4th strike.) It's hard to deal with because I feel like a lot of the more popular comics, that my target audience flocks to, are written so poorly as to be repulsive, so it's hard to have a direction to go in. I can't imitate them, because I'm not going to be motivated to put my time and effort into a project I inherently dislike. But, the stuff I do ends up as incomprehensible, and I drag good artists into them and their efforts are wasted due to my ineptitude. I mean, the artist, Demon Uncle, has done so much for me and the comic and I keep feeling that I'm letting her down.

I'm sure a lot of this is probably irrelevant, but I'm feeling pretty vulnerable and it's quite possible that I'm just a terrible comic writer with no discernible future in this medium. I mean, I'm sure I'm resilient enough to put up with continued failure, but it really takes its toll on morale and self-esteem after a while. Maybe it's a necessary evil to help me mature and grow as a person and a writer, but it's still straining and I'm not much of an optimist so I feel I have little to look forward to.

Adobedragon · Post by **Adobedragon** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:53 am

I know that not everything in the comic is explained (at least, not yet), but it's not my role to babysit the audience and tell them what to think about everything. Some things are explicitly stated in the comic; other things aren't, and it's your role as the critical reader to try to fill in the blanks to the best of your abilities. You should keep in mind that the things you explicitly know and don't know are probably deliberately done so, and so you should ask yourself why the author chose to withhold or provide such information.

Er, I think you addressed this above, but, for the record, this sort of response really puts me off as a potential reader/critiquer.

I took a quick peek at your comic and thought, "Hmm, kinda intriguing," and made a note to return and perhaps leave a critique. Then I scanned down and saw THE RETORT. "The Retort" being my terminology for an artist/writer who requests feedback, gets what he/she asked for, and then proceeds to post a rebuttal to said feedback.

There's nothing more frustrating (well, except the lines at the DMV) than writing something you think is cool and original, only to have the audience not get it. Or to get responses that make you wonder, "Is this person even reading the same story?" Yep. Been there; done that.

But it's also frustrating to take the time to write a polite critique, only to have the writer imply that misunderstandings are your fault.

I really like making comics and I don't wanna stop, but it seems like whenever I'm feeling really down and come up with some amazing concept to redeem myself, it flops.

Well, there were only 21 pages up at the time of this pitch. Do ya really think that's enough time for a complex comic to get an audience? I don't. Give it more time.

I'm sure a lot of this is probably irrelevant, but I'm feeling pretty vulnerable and it's quite possible that I'm just a terrible comic writer with no discernible future in this medium.

Perhaps then, this isn't the time to ask for critiques. Seriously. There's no harm in saying you're not interested in feedback. I think the notion that one should always be open to feedback is silly. I'm not looking for any with my comic. Why? Because my inner critic has been a bitch lately, and HC is my one project with no inherent profit motive. Totally for fun. There's a certain reckless joy in working on a project where I'm not constantly second-guessing myself. (Actually, I am, but so far the second-guessing hasn't killed the fun.)

And for the record, I see evidence of plenty of talent. So you don't write comics with cheerful little Mary Sues frolicking in manga land with cute boys.* Big deal. You have an original voice. Own it; perfect it.

Best of luck and don't give up.

*(I do like shoujo manga, so manga defenders needn't get their knickers in a knot.)

LibertyCabbage · Post by **LibertyCabbage** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:47 pm

Yeah, it's sort of an odd development here since I'm probably the harshest and least sympathethic reviewer on CG (I don't review often, though.) I tend to really elaborate on specifics, though, so perhaps I found these generally negative but vague critiques to be underdeveloped. But, yeah, I really should be more polite even if the responses aren't as flattering and/or complex as I'd anticipated. There are also factors involved besides this thread, so there's a bit more going on than just these 3 posts, but I'll consider this thread as a self-contained entity anyways.

I was sort of under the illusion before that I was working on some significant project, and now it's just kinda... meh... although as long as DU will keep drawing it (and I assume she will) then I'll keep writing it. You're right, though, that the comic is still only 21 pages so far, and to me the story, characters, and setting has just barely been introduced, and I do have a lot of neat stuff planned for the future (which will be at least a dozen or so more chapters.) This project might not get me anywhere, but it'll at least be something different, and I have other concepts floating around that might have some worth in the future (and I'm planning on drawing a comic again eventually, hopefully sooner than later.)

Yeahduff · Post by **Yeahduff** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:13 pm

It's obvious you have a unique vision, and you really are trying to do something new with comics. If you haven't quite put it together yet, well, it's really early, so don't worry about it. What are you, nineteen? Look forward to at least the next decade of falling on your face. But you're ahead of the game in that you're pushing yourself and expecting a lot out of yourself. Just don't push yourself so hard that it's not fun anymore and you quit.

Glambourine · Post by **Glambourine** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:05 am

LibertyCabbage wrote:I was sort of under the illusion before that I was working on some significant project, and now it's just kinda... meh... although as long as DU will keep drawing it (and I assume she will) then I'll keep writing it. You're right, though, that the comic is still only 21 pages so far, and to me the story, characters, and setting has just barely been introduced, and I do have a lot of neat stuff planned for the future (which will be at least a dozen or so more chapters.) This project might not get me anywhere, but it'll at least be something different, and I have other concepts floating around that might have some worth in the future (and I'm planning on drawing a comic again eventually, hopefully sooner than later.)

I figure as long as you like what you do (independent of the question of its external "worth", as far as that's possible), you're okay, you'll hone your writing/layout skills, and you'll eventually hit on something good. If you can come back to your own pages a month after they're done and you can still enjoy them, someone else will more than likely enjoy them too.

And I kind of liked what I read of Deep the other day, actually, FWIW.

LibertyCabbage · Post by **LibertyCabbage** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:30 pm

You're both exactly right. I'm still very young, and being good at anything takes practice, maturity, practice, and more practice. I have been too worrisome, even obsessive, about this project and too concerned about impressing people and it really hasn't been constructive towards anything. I mean, this comic isn't born out of a whim; I'm doing it because I'm interested in the characters and the story and the experimental styles, and since I'm gonna be doing it anyways I might as well just relax and have fun with it. If I were 30 or something I'd really have to be more concerned about what I'm doing, but, I'm not, and I'm fortunate to have opportunities like this where I'm allowed to fail. And, the good thing about struggling is it keeps me from becoming complacent and overconfident, as essentially, at this point, my goal is to increase my skills by as much as possible. OR is my best comic work so far, so at least I'm improving, and it's probable that my next project will be even better, so maybe someday things'll be looking up.

glambourine wrote:And I kind of liked what I read of Deep the other day, actually, FWIW.

Heh, I think that's the first praise about Deep I've gotten so far...