Oh say can you hablo espanol? [Van rant]

[Kilre]

Honestly, I'm dissapointed in this thread. We've gone from seriously looking at the problem to defending hatred and spite.

Welcome to a Van thread, please enjoy your stay.

I know I am. Anyone want some popcorn?

[Dracomax]

Welcome to a Van thread, please enjoy your stay.

I know I am. Anyone want some popcorn?

Is it buttered?

[Kilre]

Is it buttered?

Damn straight it is.

[Kirb]

Hey! I made good points!

Do you... uh... have any kettle corn? =o~

[Joel Fagin]

I am disapointed at you turning this wonderful discussion into an America-bashing.

*shrug* I threw the same criticisms Australia's way. I just wanted to point out that America is by no means unique in it's "land of the free"-ness or even the best at it. Neither is Australia. Each country tends to have it's own little set of strengths and weaknesses. We need to glom the whole lot together, really.

My point is just that pretty much all of the first world countries have the same basic advantages that America has. And disadvantages, too (the imigrants kicking the door down to get in).

Anyway, I won't comment on that particular aspect again. I won't say I'll stay out of the thread, though, since it'll probably go in at least three more directions before it's done.

- Joel Fagin

[Kilre]

Hey! I made good points!

Do you... uh... have any kettle corn? =o~

Oh snap!

Nope.

[Levi-chan]

OH POP!

[Dracomax]

Hey! I made good points!

Do you... uh... have any kettle corn? =o~

Oh snap!

Nope.

I have a recipe...

[Kisai]

Let's pick apart a few words used:

"Melting pot" - Everything different that goes into the melting pot comes out the same.

"Mosaic" - Bits of fabric are sewn together, but the original fabric is still visible in the result.

"Melting Pot" = USA
"Mosaic" = Canada

Canada, for it's part embraces multiculture ,but the USA is more of a "adopt our standards, our nationalism, our guns, our capitalism, our democracy, or you get the boot" . It's hard to explain the difference, but I remember from Social Studies 10 (high school, BC, canada) a teacher wasting an entire class on explaining why canadian multiculturalism is a good thing, and melting pot is a bad thing. *shrug*

For what it's worth, I don't think "melting pot" applies in as such a literal sense for the USA. That same teacher also advocated that Communism was the best option for China because of it's population X_x

"illegal immigrant" or "illegal alien" - Of for cripes sake, this is just politically correctness being stupid again when they want to call them "undocumented workers", illegal alien correctly identifies the problem, despite dehumanizing them. "Undocumented worker" suggests that they can get documentation. They can't, they entered the country illegally.

There needs to be a crackdown on the businesses employing illegal aliens, like, as in "business crushing" fines. And yes, it's the same kind of businesses employing illegal aliens that were once slave owners. Know your history. They employ them, knowing full well they have no rights, and can't do anything to the employer to make them treat them right otherwise they expose themselves as an illegal alien and they get the boot. In fact that's the very threat the worst businesses use.

Erecting a fence does nothing but solve a symptom, not the problem. The symptom being "It's too easy for people to come across the border" (see China, Great Wall. See also Israeal-Palistinian wall, and Berlin wall.) IT doesn't solve the problem of "Why do people want to enter the country illegally" . Let's see http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cf ... &year=2006, hmm, according to this map, there are several partly-free countries south of mexico (and another map showing mexico's press isn't completely free either)

The US is a giant target for foreigners from any country to get to. Unfortunately, the US "legal immigrant" system is split into two types:
a) Visa's, temporary legal H1B workers, and skilled/rich people
b) National Lottery, humane reasons - so many people are accepted from developing and undeveloped countries every year, it's pretty much "free green card". If you are a member of one of these countries, you have a 1 in 2 billion chance of getting one. I think getting struck by lightning is easier.

If you read the immigration site, (US, Canada, UK, AU, etc), they usually have an allowance for skilled workers(TN), rich people who want to start a business, family of the above, and H1B (temporary skilled workers), etc

None of those allow "unskilled people who are willing to take crap jobs that nobody else will work cheap enough to do".

I should probably point out that many jobs illegals do aren't so much jobs that no american will do, but rather no american wants to do at a wage the employer is willing to pay.

Really, would you want to clean poo off the walls of restrooms for 5$ an hour? Didn't think so. (I've seen 19$/hr jobs for resident managers (Janitorial/maintenance), so yes there is a price people are willing to work at.)

Anyway. Not everyone is right, but not everyone is wrong either. I see "illegal immigrants = bad thing", but that doesn't mean that "illegal immigrants = bad people", many may be desparate. In fact another example from canada... Canada sent the chinese boat people back to china... they probably were either all arrested when they got there and executed, or took their own lives. If canada didn't send them back, we'd be having this happen frequently. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat_people , with what happened with Vietnamese people. Some news articles linked from there suggest that most of the people trying to escape are not skilled, and wound up as "dishwashers'

EDIT:
Oh I should point out that the illegals that arrived in vancouver "probably disappeared accross the US border, being sold as slaves by snake heads" , here's a site with pictures http://www.library.ubc.ca/asian/FinalAs ... anada.html

oh here, some stories from illegal immigrants from china http://www.library.ubc.ca/asian/FinalAs ... views.html , horrific.

[Dracomax]

<snipetty>

Erecting a fence does nothing but solve a symptom, not the problem. The symptom being "It's too easy for people to come across the border" (see China, Great Wall. See also Israeal-Palistinian wall, and Berlin wall.) IT doesn't solve the problem of "Why do people want to enter the country illegally" . Let's see http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cf ... &year=2006, hmm, according to this map, there are several partly-free countries south of mexico (and another map showing mexico's press isn't completely free either)

The US is a giant target for foreigners from any country to get to. Unfortunately, the US "legal immigrant" system is split into two types:
a) Visa's, temporary legal H1B workers, and skilled/rich people
b) National Lottery, humane reasons - so many people are accepted from developing and undeveloped countries every year, it's pretty much "free green card". If you are a member of one of these countries, you have a 1 in 2 billion chance of getting one. I think getting struck by lightning is easier.
<snipety>
Anyway. Not everyone is right, but not everyone is wrong either. I see "illegal immigrants = bad thing", but that doesn't mean that "illegal immigrants = bad people", many may be desparate. In fact another example from canada... Canada sent the chinese boat people back to china... they probably were either all arrested when they got there and executed, or took their own lives. If canada didn't send them back, we'd be having this happen frequently. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat_people , with what happened with Vietnamese people. Some news articles linked from there suggest that most of the people trying to escape are not skilled, and wound up as "dishwashers'
<snip>

You actually complement the points I have been trying to make. The only way to solve the problem of mexican Immigration is to help Mexico become a country people want to stay in. Incedentally, if we could do so, we would probably have another firm ally on our borders, rather than one who is ambivelent at best.

[Kilre]

You actually complement the points I have been trying to make. The only way to solve the problem of mexican Immigration is to help Mexico become a country people want to stay in. Incedentally, if we could do so, we would probably have another firm ally on our borders, rather than one who is ambivelent at best.

Where're the business incentives? Even goodwill comes at a price in the states.

[Dracomax]

well, you have to take a long term view...
In ten or fifteen years, you'll have cheap imports of refined metal, oil, etc, which you can mark up however you wish.

Not to mention that if the peso gains value relative to the dollar, creating a more economically stable mexico, it will mean more mexicans will be able to afford to by exports.

[Kilre]

well, you have to take a long term view...
In ten or fifteen years, you'll have cheap imports of refined metal, oil, etc, which you can mark up however you wish.

Not to mention that if the peso gains value relative to the dollar, creating a more economically stable mexico, it will mean more mexicans will be able to afford to by exports.

You're not trying to convince me, I know that helping other countries would help us...not to mention improve our shitty standing in the international community.

Convince the people that want to see results <i>now</i>. That want profits because of their expenditures <i>now</i>.

[Mr.Bob]

Election soonish, though.

Ha! You're not going to fool me again! That's what you people said two years ago!

That same teacher also advocated that Communism was the best option for China because of it's population X_x

I agree. Democracy is not foolproof. A system like communism is one of the only ways the Chinese government can keep control of that monolith of a country.
To put it in basic terms - if you had to confer with a GICANTIC population of mostly ill-educated people for every decision, you would never ever get anything done.

[McDuffies]

Isn't Communism also a system that regards common people's opinion? I mean, just to fix the terms because most of communisms evertually slided into autocracy.

[Prettysenshi]

Let's pick apart a few words used:

"Melting pot" - Everything different that goes into the melting pot comes out the same.

"Mosaic" - Bits of fabric are sewn together, but the original fabric is still visible in the result.

"Melting Pot" = USA
"Mosaic" = Canada

Well a few years back, America realized how one-sided it made the country look. Now we use "tossed salad". A united country, consisting of several different groups of people that add to the whole.

[Mr.Bob]

Now we use "tossed salad".

Someone must be having a laugh...

[Rkolter]

Now we use "tossed salad".

Someone must be having a laugh...

'Tossed' means something entirely different over there, doesn't it?

[Dracomax]

I'm just trying to figure out how one of the least healthy food lifestyle countries in the world gets compared to a salad.

[McDuffies]

Maybe USA is actually like paella?