Just to add a point from the Canadian perspective.
You do realize there are armed american vilgilantees patrolling some parts of the US-canadian border right?
Literal use of the word "American" , anyone from any part of north or south america is "American" literately. What people are confusing is "US Citizen" which is a legal process that can only be given to a legal immigrant.
Not all the illegal aliens coming from Mexico, are Mexican, Mexico has it's own illegal alien problem from the rest of Central and South America. If they manage to survive getting across Mexico into the US, it's like the golden life to them.
The US has no official language. It's just well known that english is spoken everywhere, and the US is the largest by population that speaks english. Spanish is spoken by some US citizens, and just as many that speak spanish may also be able to speak hindi or chinese (Which are languages spoken by more people than english in the rest of the world.)
IMO, it's a double-edged sword issue. One one hand you have possibly repressed people getting hired by evil companies and treated like slaves, on the other hand you have people just desparate enough to get into the US by any means necessary that they will take ANY job. There are plenty of "no-skill" jobs.
But there is another issue, Legal immigration. I'll give you a first hand experience. One of the girls that used to work at my call center, and has since decided to go back to school to become an assisstant. She is from Mexico, came to Canada on what I assume was a NAFTA visa, she has a medical degree in dentistry. It's not recognized in Canada... so she was working at a call center being paid just a little over minimum wage. The call center values reps that can understand english AND spanish.
Canada has a higher standard of living than the US does when the Canadian dollar is nearly at par with the US dollar, due to health care. When it's not at par(lower), the US has a higher standard of living. Since the difference in the dollar means the difference between paying for health care insurance or not.
There are a lot of legal immigrants, that have a degree in something that are inside the US or Canada, and yet are working poverty level jobs because their credentials are worthless.
So illegal immigrants just make the problem worse by taking jobs away from US citizens and legal immigrants.
I doubt building a wall will solve the problem, but I can't say there is a right solution either. If the illegal immagrants were paying taxes, there would be less reason to complain. There is a reason why there are limits on Visa's. If the border were open, then everyone from every impoverished nation would come through, using up all the resources (especially social resources like welfare and unemployment, schools, etc), and thus it would become a problem for Canada too, which has a much larger border.
Oh say can you hablo espanol? [Van rant]
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McDuffies
- Bob was here (Moderator)
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There are two perspectives on this, depending on where you are born, and I don't think I completely agree with anyone who posted in this thread so far, simply because everyone limited themselves to looking at things from exclusively one perspective.
First, I think that we all agree on that noone chooses where they're born, in what part of the world, social class or whatever.
Now, we can also all agree that everyone wants to live good, comfortable life. It is a simple, natural desire of a human being to have decent life.
Some countries in the world don't give conditions for such decent life. People from such countries are given choice to try to change their status in given circumastances (which is usually impossible) or to change circumstances - ie. move away.
Therefore, from the perspective of someone born in third world country, it is perfectly normal that someone will want to give themselves and their families decent life by immigrating to richer countries.
From the perspective of citizen of one of rich countires, he believes that being born in a certain country, he has certain rights given inside that country, that citizens of other countries don't. That person fears that major flow of people from poorer countries might, let's say, dilute his native culture and make stress on economy. Though this is pretty much xenophobia, it is not quite entirely baseless.
I believe that person immigrating to other country should adopt culture of that country to a reasonable extent. But noone can expect from a Puertorican who immigrates USA to instantly stop being Puertorican and start being exclusively citizen of USA. You can't erase years of living in Puertorico among your native culture, your genes, etc, even if you wanted. And you shouldn't want, because cultural diversity is a wonderful thing.
There seem to be great differences in opinion of what "reasonable extent" is. There are definitely people who immigrate and expect to continue living the same way they did in their native country. This is very wrong. If you immigrated from Serbia to Germany and continued dumping garbage around you, throwing papers in the street, etc, you'll likely eventually be arrested. And for a reason: likely the same kind of behaviour that lets you distribute garbage wherever you feel like, is what drove you out of Serbia.
So it sums up to that you are escaping from un-culture and actually carrying it with you.
One of the most shocking images for me was an Islamic protestor in the middle of London, with a picket that says "Down with democracy." So, this person would like something resembling Brittish standard of living but no democracy - eating at mcDonalds, but not democracy. That simply doesn't go, simply for the reason that mcDonalds is, directly or indirectly, a product of democracy. This person sets the "reasonable extent" line to quite a stretch.
The other side of the story is, for instance, law, that prohibited Islamic girls wearing veils in school. This caused many protests and even threats from terrorists. Asides from that, such move by French government was wrong, in my opinion, because this time they expected immigrants to give up on too much of their native culture. Likes are, if European woman lived in an African tribe where women walk topless, she'd feel very uncomfortable being topless herself. Similarly, I believe that islamic girls felt uncomfortable without veils.
On that note, immigrating to a country and never learning it's language seems to be more a lack of common sence. By refusing to learn the language, you are doing yourself more damage than to anyone else. But also, it is perfectly logical that those people will speak their native language among themselves. Just like it'd be logical if I met Lego somewhere in USA and we spoke Serbian instead of English.
Do immigrants take jobs from natives? From what I've heard, immigrants (with exceptions) work hard and dirty jobs, some that natives will very often refuse to work. I've noticed in Switzerland, strong dislike by native Swiss for immigrants from Eastern Europe. However, this dislike is untirely unfair since, from what I've heard, no Swiss will accept work as a dishwasher (this might differ in USA with higher unemployment rate). I wouldn't go as far as to say that Swiss are doing a favour to eastern folk, simply the process of immigration is a deal that suits both sides just fine, it's just that both sides like to believe that they're doing someone a favour.
Immigrants aren't overpopulating western Europe either, since most of western/central europe suffers from low natality. Regardless, they'd sometimes like to believe that African and Asian immigrants will one day overrun Europe - all that while doing nothing to make that natality higher.
Yet, I can't help but look at it different way too: I see some people who try and suceed to immigrate to west from Serbia: some of them are freaking slobs. Some are simply said dirtbags. They aren't products of lack of culture, they generate lack of culture themselves. They find someone to marry for money in Central Europe and get citizenship on that accunt. I find it hard to believe that, when they leave Serbia, they suddenly stop being such slobs.
What was it that I wanted to say too? Oh, yeah. I don't think that the case of today's illegal immigrants can be equalized to the case of first American immigrants, for a simple case: although in both cases, immigrants were hoping for a better life, original immigrants were doing it with a great risk, going into unknown to create that better life themselves. Today's immigrants are going for an already established high standard of life.
It's simple, everyone is right a bit, but no side is looking at the big picture. Everyone has right to hope for a decent life, and everyone has to make some compromises for decent life. Not all illegal immigrants are uncultured slobs and not all natives are paranoic xenophobs.
Posts like the one that started this thread do their share to widen the gap between those two. It does a job of portraying all illegal immigrants as dirtbags who don't deserve a good life, and from a perspective of an immigrant, portray all natives as hate-spreaders. I'm trying to handle this forum with a soft hand, not lock every risky situation at sight and such, which I regret once in a while. I didn't want to lock this thread just because Van posted it, but it is obvious that he doesn't post such threads for opinions and discussion, he simply does it to stirr the mud in hope that it will generate him hits for his comic.
First, I think that we all agree on that noone chooses where they're born, in what part of the world, social class or whatever.
Now, we can also all agree that everyone wants to live good, comfortable life. It is a simple, natural desire of a human being to have decent life.
Some countries in the world don't give conditions for such decent life. People from such countries are given choice to try to change their status in given circumastances (which is usually impossible) or to change circumstances - ie. move away.
Therefore, from the perspective of someone born in third world country, it is perfectly normal that someone will want to give themselves and their families decent life by immigrating to richer countries.
From the perspective of citizen of one of rich countires, he believes that being born in a certain country, he has certain rights given inside that country, that citizens of other countries don't. That person fears that major flow of people from poorer countries might, let's say, dilute his native culture and make stress on economy. Though this is pretty much xenophobia, it is not quite entirely baseless.
I believe that person immigrating to other country should adopt culture of that country to a reasonable extent. But noone can expect from a Puertorican who immigrates USA to instantly stop being Puertorican and start being exclusively citizen of USA. You can't erase years of living in Puertorico among your native culture, your genes, etc, even if you wanted. And you shouldn't want, because cultural diversity is a wonderful thing.
There seem to be great differences in opinion of what "reasonable extent" is. There are definitely people who immigrate and expect to continue living the same way they did in their native country. This is very wrong. If you immigrated from Serbia to Germany and continued dumping garbage around you, throwing papers in the street, etc, you'll likely eventually be arrested. And for a reason: likely the same kind of behaviour that lets you distribute garbage wherever you feel like, is what drove you out of Serbia.
So it sums up to that you are escaping from un-culture and actually carrying it with you.
One of the most shocking images for me was an Islamic protestor in the middle of London, with a picket that says "Down with democracy." So, this person would like something resembling Brittish standard of living but no democracy - eating at mcDonalds, but not democracy. That simply doesn't go, simply for the reason that mcDonalds is, directly or indirectly, a product of democracy. This person sets the "reasonable extent" line to quite a stretch.
The other side of the story is, for instance, law, that prohibited Islamic girls wearing veils in school. This caused many protests and even threats from terrorists. Asides from that, such move by French government was wrong, in my opinion, because this time they expected immigrants to give up on too much of their native culture. Likes are, if European woman lived in an African tribe where women walk topless, she'd feel very uncomfortable being topless herself. Similarly, I believe that islamic girls felt uncomfortable without veils.
On that note, immigrating to a country and never learning it's language seems to be more a lack of common sence. By refusing to learn the language, you are doing yourself more damage than to anyone else. But also, it is perfectly logical that those people will speak their native language among themselves. Just like it'd be logical if I met Lego somewhere in USA and we spoke Serbian instead of English.
Do immigrants take jobs from natives? From what I've heard, immigrants (with exceptions) work hard and dirty jobs, some that natives will very often refuse to work. I've noticed in Switzerland, strong dislike by native Swiss for immigrants from Eastern Europe. However, this dislike is untirely unfair since, from what I've heard, no Swiss will accept work as a dishwasher (this might differ in USA with higher unemployment rate). I wouldn't go as far as to say that Swiss are doing a favour to eastern folk, simply the process of immigration is a deal that suits both sides just fine, it's just that both sides like to believe that they're doing someone a favour.
Immigrants aren't overpopulating western Europe either, since most of western/central europe suffers from low natality. Regardless, they'd sometimes like to believe that African and Asian immigrants will one day overrun Europe - all that while doing nothing to make that natality higher.
Yet, I can't help but look at it different way too: I see some people who try and suceed to immigrate to west from Serbia: some of them are freaking slobs. Some are simply said dirtbags. They aren't products of lack of culture, they generate lack of culture themselves. They find someone to marry for money in Central Europe and get citizenship on that accunt. I find it hard to believe that, when they leave Serbia, they suddenly stop being such slobs.
What was it that I wanted to say too? Oh, yeah. I don't think that the case of today's illegal immigrants can be equalized to the case of first American immigrants, for a simple case: although in both cases, immigrants were hoping for a better life, original immigrants were doing it with a great risk, going into unknown to create that better life themselves. Today's immigrants are going for an already established high standard of life.
It's simple, everyone is right a bit, but no side is looking at the big picture. Everyone has right to hope for a decent life, and everyone has to make some compromises for decent life. Not all illegal immigrants are uncultured slobs and not all natives are paranoic xenophobs.
Posts like the one that started this thread do their share to widen the gap between those two. It does a job of portraying all illegal immigrants as dirtbags who don't deserve a good life, and from a perspective of an immigrant, portray all natives as hate-spreaders. I'm trying to handle this forum with a soft hand, not lock every risky situation at sight and such, which I regret once in a while. I didn't want to lock this thread just because Van posted it, but it is obvious that he doesn't post such threads for opinions and discussion, he simply does it to stirr the mud in hope that it will generate him hits for his comic.
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Kisai
- Goddess of Light
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In Canada, you can get pretty much any government form in any language. I mean, I was at the BC ferries one day and there were tourist information printed in 30 languages.Swikan wrote:P.S.: The language issue the OP brought up is complicated. For one thing, the expense of having all our documents, including ballots and drivers license application forms, printed in several languages is overwhelming for a lot of local governments. It is our law to make our legal documents available to be read by everyone who lives here.
That having said, when I lived in small town bc, where russian was the most common second language, they didn't start teaching russian in schools to primary/elementary children till like 1989 it seemed. Yet, the only language available was french, that half the russian kids took anyway, so as a result they are trilingual, and very good at it. But they still come off as speaking english if they primarily speak russian at home.
So, no, there should be no reason every available form, printed document in the country, etc to be printed in every language and made available on demand. It's a waste.
It's far more efficient to print government forms off in the most common languages for the local area, and have the local people employed to process the forms into the english computers. In Victoria and Vancouver there are probably more people who speak chinese than there are people who speak all other languages combined as their primary language, yet nearly all can speak english. And in their defence, it's usually the grandparents that were brought here on family immigration that don't speak a bit of english.
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Guildmaster Van
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My own views. I see some good and I see some bad.
The good
1. We americans could use a good example of work ethic.
2. Tacos are friggin' awsome
3. I have met some HOT latino girls in my life
the bad
1. ENGLISH MOTHERFNARDER! DO YOU SPEAK IT?
2. If you want benefits pay some friggin taxes.
3. Please turn whatever that obnoxious noise you call music DOWN. Just because you like it doesn't mean the entire square mile area wants to here it.
So in short my solution is this.
Track down all current illegals and hand them a spanish-english dictionary and a bill for back owed taxes. Please go show taco bell how to make a REAL taco.
In short. Learn some English, pay your taxes, and Tacos rule.
The good
1. We americans could use a good example of work ethic.
2. Tacos are friggin' awsome
3. I have met some HOT latino girls in my life
the bad
1. ENGLISH MOTHERFNARDER! DO YOU SPEAK IT?
2. If you want benefits pay some friggin taxes.
3. Please turn whatever that obnoxious noise you call music DOWN. Just because you like it doesn't mean the entire square mile area wants to here it.
So in short my solution is this.
Track down all current illegals and hand them a spanish-english dictionary and a bill for back owed taxes. Please go show taco bell how to make a REAL taco.
In short. Learn some English, pay your taxes, and Tacos rule.
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Noise Monkey
- Smells of pee
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I think this is a fair statement. However being that our respective perspectives are different, that is part of the spark of this discussion.mcDuffies wrote:I don't think I completely agree with anyone who posted in this thread so far, simply because everyone limited themselves to looking at things from exclusively one perspective.
I disagree here. This is not xenophobia, at least it doesn't come from that angle here in the US or Canada. Both countries revel in our diversity and our individual cultural backgrounds. It's what makes us stronger. What we are rebelling against are the changes in those things that are common to ALL citizens.. our language for conducting business and the enforcement of our laws, etc. I can't speak for Sweden, as maybe it's xenophobic up there. And being from a border state and having lived in 3 border states as an adult taxpayer, I can tell you factually that too many folks coming in to take advantage or our social programs ARE a stress on the economy. At least my middle-class taxpaying economy.mcDuffies wrote:From the perspective of citizen of one of rich countires, he believes that being born in a certain country, he has certain rights given inside that country, that citizens of other countries don't. That person fears that major flow of people from poorer countries might, let's say, dilute his native culture and make stress on economy. Though this is pretty much xenophobia, it is not quite entirely baseless.
No one expects you to give up who you are when you move to America or Canada. We just don't expect to have to give up what WE are to accomodate you.mcDuffies wrote:I believe that person immigrating to other country should adopt culture of that country to a reasonable extent. But noone can expect from a Puertorican who immigrates USA to instantly stop being Puertorican and start being exclusively citizen of USA. You can't erase years of living in Puertorico among your native culture, your genes, etc, even if you wanted. And you shouldn't want, because cultural diversity is a wonderful thing.
I fully agree with you here.mcDuffies wrote:There seem to be great differences in opinion of what "reasonable extent" is. There are definitely people who immigrate and expect to continue living the same way they did in their native country. This is very wrong. If you immigrated from Serbia to Germany and continued dumping garbage around you, throwing papers in the street, etc, you'll likely eventually be arrested. And for a reason: likely the same kind of behaviour that lets you distribute garbage wherever you feel like, is what drove you out of Serbia.
I didn't see that on the news, but I see similiar things here in the States.mcDuffies wrote:One of the most shocking images for me was an Islamic protestor in the middle of London, with a picket that says "Down with democracy." So, this person would like something resembling Brittish standard of living but no democracy - eating at mcDonalds, but not democracy. That simply doesn't go, simply for the reason that mcDonalds is, directly or indirectly, a product of democracy. This person sets the "reasonable extent" line to quite a stretch.
If the girls get to wear their veils, then Christians get to wear their crosses and the Jewish students get to wear their stars. In that case, I believe the French were trying to be consistent with their rules and while I feel for the discomfort of the young girls, I can't really say that the school was wrong here.mcDuffies wrote:The other side of the story is, for instance, law, that prohibited Islamic girls wearing veils in school. This caused many protests and even threats from terrorists. Asides from that, such move by French government was wrong, in my opinion, because this time they expected immigrants to give up on too much of their native culture. Likes are, if European woman lived in an African tribe where women walk topless, she'd feel very uncomfortable being topless herself. Similarly, I believe that islamic girls felt uncomfortable without veils.
We are having a debate sort of about this in some parts of my country. The question is regarding Drivers License photos and speeding stops and the veil. I am on the side that says veil wearers should remove the veil for their drivers license photos, and must show their face to the police officer when they are stopped. Opponents of this say that it is improper to expose their faces to other men, etc. Again, while I wouldn't want the women to do anything that makes them so uncomfortable, I do believe they should let the officer verify that the person on the license is the person who is driving. Otherwise, if they go to court, what's to prevent the the speeder from saying "it wasn't me behind the wheel, it was someone else who was wearing a veil"...
mcDuffies wrote:On that note, immigrating to a country and never learning it's language seems to be more a lack of common sence. By refusing to learn the language, you are doing yourself more damage than to anyone else.
You would not believe how many people do this. In fact, I heard on the news about one campaign for local office where all the ads are in Farsi. The arabic community is so large that one teenage girl who was interviewed said she has forgotton most of her English because she nevers has to speak it.
America's unemployment rate is only a couple of points higher than Switzerland's. Americans are willing to do dirty jobs, but they expect to get paid minimum wage and minimum benefits. By accepting less, they would be diluting the work of the early unions who fought so hard for workers rights only a couple of generations ago.mcDuffies wrote:Do immigrants take jobs from natives? From what I've heard, immigrants (with exceptions) work hard and dirty jobs, some that natives will very often refuse to work. I've noticed in Switzerland, strong dislike by native Swiss for immigrants from Eastern Europe. However, this dislike is untirely unfair since, from what I've heard, no Swiss will accept work as a dishwasher (this might differ in USA with higher unemployment rate).
I hope Van didn't do that. Generally speaking, I was fascinated by everyone's discussion and thought the point and counterpoint of the thread was quite invigorating. But I can see how it could easily degenerate to the point where the Lock Hammer might come into play. Here in the States and Canada, it's a touchy subject.mcDuffies wrote:I didn't want to lock this thread just because Van posted it, but it is obvious that he doesn't post such threads for opinions and discussion, he simply does it to stirr the mud in hope that it will generate him hits for his comic.
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Rkolter
- Destroyer of Words (Moderator)
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Find me a hard working, tax paying, illegal immigrant, and I will show you a person who needs to be made an American.
Good luck with that.
You'll find hard working illegal immigrants if you look for them - no doubt about it. But how many of them will have found a way to pay taxes? Ok, they pay sales tax, but local and state taxes cover schools, local hospitals, road repair, and so on. Federal taxes covers protecting the country they want to live in, interstate roads, the government to keep it all going, etcetera.
At best, an illegal immigrant who works hard but doesn't pay taxes, is no better than anyone else guilty of tax evasion. And worse, at least an actual US citizen who evades taxes is supposed to BE here and is considered when working out budgets for roads, eductation, etcetera.
I don't think a fence will make a bit of difference - good grief, it's not regularly patrolled and you can just cut it open.
A better answer would be to increase the penalty to companies caught employing illegal immigrants. Scale up the penalty with time, so that they can get "off" having illegal immigrants and back onto employing US citizens. Believe me, there are people to take the jobs. With an ever increasing penalty, companies would find it less risky to hire US citizens at minimum wage. It becomes a better financial decision, and better for more companies as time moves on.
Within a decade, the tide would be stemmed more than a fence could ever do.
Good luck with that.
You'll find hard working illegal immigrants if you look for them - no doubt about it. But how many of them will have found a way to pay taxes? Ok, they pay sales tax, but local and state taxes cover schools, local hospitals, road repair, and so on. Federal taxes covers protecting the country they want to live in, interstate roads, the government to keep it all going, etcetera.
At best, an illegal immigrant who works hard but doesn't pay taxes, is no better than anyone else guilty of tax evasion. And worse, at least an actual US citizen who evades taxes is supposed to BE here and is considered when working out budgets for roads, eductation, etcetera.
I don't think a fence will make a bit of difference - good grief, it's not regularly patrolled and you can just cut it open.
A better answer would be to increase the penalty to companies caught employing illegal immigrants. Scale up the penalty with time, so that they can get "off" having illegal immigrants and back onto employing US citizens. Believe me, there are people to take the jobs. With an ever increasing penalty, companies would find it less risky to hire US citizens at minimum wage. It becomes a better financial decision, and better for more companies as time moves on.
Within a decade, the tide would be stemmed more than a fence could ever do.
Crossfire: "Thank you! That explains it very nicely, and in a language that someone other than a physicist can understand..."
Denial is not falsification. You can't avoid a fact just because you don't like it.
"Data" is not the plural of "anecdote"
rkolter: Saw on the news this morning that illegals were harder to catch in border cities because they immediately blend in with the population. So the solid fence is going around population centers. An electronic fence (here meaning surveilance) is supposed to go between the solid ones. Whatever makes it harder to get in is a step in the right direction.
But YES on enforcement of Immigration laws with the companies. That is getting more and more support down here.
But YES on enforcement of Immigration laws with the companies. That is getting more and more support down here.
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Rkolter
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It's still kinda dumb. So long as you can cut through, dig under, drive through, or go over the physical fence, what's the point? And the electronic one only helps if there happens to be someone nearby when the breech occurs.Swikan wrote:rkolter: Saw on the news this morning that illegals were harder to catch in border cities because they immediately blend in with the population. So the solid fence is going around population centers. An electronic fence (here meaning surveilance) is supposed to go between the solid ones. Whatever makes it harder to get in is a step in the right direction.
But YES on enforcement of Immigration laws with the companies. That is getting more and more support down here.
A fence is only really good if you have it guarded, land mined, or electrified. Or guarded with land-mine covered electro-dogs. Something. Just a fence? Just a camera? Psh.
::edit:: Forgot this is a sensitive topic - for the record, I am not advocating land mining our borders. I was merely pointing out that just a fence... well, it's just a fence. It won't stop a soul.
Crossfire: "Thank you! That explains it very nicely, and in a language that someone other than a physicist can understand..."
Denial is not falsification. You can't avoid a fact just because you don't like it.
"Data" is not the plural of "anecdote"
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Jesusabdullah
- Cartoon Hero
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see, yo awblow espaniel! [/massive American accent]
I've lived here all my life, and the only native Alaskan words I know are place names (Denali, Chuckchi Sea, etc.) and kuspuq (basically a native hoodie) and ulu (a type of knife if you didn't know). :/Tellurider wrote:Yeah, that's why I like to learn languages. Honestly the only inuit I know I can't remember right now, but I learned it from a sign that says "keep out." But when the germans invade I'll be ready, and I'm already prepared to blend in with the spanish speakers. Now I just need to get some insurance against the coming red tide from china.
I think McDuffies pretty much nailed it on the head. I think I did have some things to add, though. Umm... first: I'm pretty sure a lot of the language stuff is caused by legal immigrants. For example, there's this massive Russian commune or something some tens of miles South of where I live. None of them speak English well. As a consequence, the school district had to divert funding to make a new elementary school specially for them, which teaches at least partly in Russian. At least, this is my understanding. So, this isn't a problem with illegals so much as it is with a lack of desire and reason to assimilate amongst all immigrants. I don't think that's actually wrong, and I can understand their lack of desire (I think I would feel like a total jackass trying to blend into, say, Mexican society), but at least trying seems like the polite thing to do. Also, it doesn't seem like it's too hard for people that at least have a foundation once they get immersed--when I worked at Shithole^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HThe Grande Denali Hotel, there were a lot of Bulgarians and such working there (which reminds me, why don't more Mexicans come in on seasonal work permits or whatever? Those jackasses seemed to have an easy enough time with it) and I definitely saw them improve their English skills over the summer--and they weren't even that immersed! The English-speakers were practically the minority.
Second: I think immigration to the United States should be fairly easy. However (at least this is how I think of it), the United States would want its immigrants to somehow benefit the country. Do a bunch of poor people benefit the country? Perhaps, in that they do jobs that many current citizens don't want to do for less money and are (at least sometimes) happy to do so. On the other hand, a growing lower/working class is usually considered a bad thing. Instead, we would want to attract the smart people from other countries. What I've said is obvious I guess, but I'm pretty sure I hadn't seen it around much.
Oh, and this reminds me of that thing Maddox wrote/drew. I'm sure most of you are aware of it, but <shrug> doesn't hurt I guess.
Edit: I forgot to say, I think making a border-long fence is a silly silly idea. There has to be a better way to spend the money.
It was the Americans who formed the original unions who forced companies to pay their workers a minimum wage and have a safe working environment. By hiring illegal immigrants who do NOT require those things, makes the efforts of those early Americans useless. So by allowing the companies to get away with low wages and crappy working conditions, YES illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from Americans and allowing the companies to get off on the cheap.
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Perk_daddy
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People, are we internet ranters or are we cartoonists? This is how I speak my mind on illegal immigration:
http://cartoonista.blogspot.com/2006/04 ... ry-is.html
http://cartoonista.blogspot.com/2006/03 ... hoods.html
http://cartoonista.blogspot.com/2006/05/mayday.html
http://cartoonista.blogspot.com/2006/05 ... h-its.html
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Noise Monkey
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Perk_daddy
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McDuffies
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I think this is a fair statement. However being that our respective perspectives are different, that is part of the spark of this discussion.
Sure, but limiting yourself to one perspective, you condemn yourself to seeing only a partial picture of it, thus, probably not being quite right. It doesn't help that the full picture is very complex and that you can't really point at groups and say "they are right" and "they are wrong". It's all confusing, but then, reality is confusing.
Oh, I was speaking hypothetically, in extreme. Just like the case of that guy with "Down with democracy" was an extreme of different kind. Like I said at the bottom of previous posts, those extremes are minority, not enough to make any kind of generalization, but sometimes, one is enough to make a bad reputation for the group he belongs to.No one expects you to give up who you are when you move to America or Canada. We just don't expect to have to give up what WE are to accomodate you.
But Swikan, stars and crosses are religious symbols, and veil is a piece of clothing. It is true that veil is related to culture/religion (though there are other religions besides Islam that practice wearing them) but it is not an explicit religious symbol. Equal to cross and David's star would be Islamic moon and the star. Equal to veil is, for instance, a mini skirt.If the girls get to wear their veils, then Christians get to wear their crosses and the Jewish students get to wear their stars. In that case, I believe the French were trying to be consistent with their rules and while I feel for the discomfort of the young girls, I can't really say that the school was wrong here.
We are having a debate sort of about this in some parts of my country. The question is regarding Drivers License photos and speeding stops and the veil. I am on the side that says veil wearers should remove the veil for their drivers license photos, and must show their face to the police officer when they are stopped. Opponents of this say that it is improper to expose their faces to other men, etc. Again, while I wouldn't want the women to do anything that makes them so uncomfortable, I do believe they should let the officer verify that the person on the license is the person who is driving. Otherwise, if they go to court, what's to prevent the the speeder from saying "it wasn't me behind the wheel, it was someone else who was wearing a veil"...
(Of course, you wouldn't wear a mini skirt in Afganistan or somewhere, but then, France aims to be a free and tolerant, democratic country, Afganistan doesn't)
Western people have an impression that girls would rather not wear veils and that they are inforced by their parents, but this is not true, it's quite the lack of understanding of different culture. So French schools ban veils because they think that there is some kind of opression to Islamic girls happening, but there really isn't.
The question we have to ask is, why we, western people, feel uncomfortable by someone else wearing a veil. By asking them to take off a veil, we're making ourselves feel more comfortable, at the expence of them feeling uncomfortable. But it's their body that's wearing those clothes, not ours.
The issue with driving is completely different thing, in that case, wearing veil is making problems regarding regular social life of a person. Just like not knowing English in USA causes major problems, so does not wanting to show your veil to a police officer. But then, just like what language two Mexican-Americans are speaking among themselves is their own damn business, so is what an Islamic French girl wears on her own body.
In any case, I don't see what the problem with policemen was for. Most of more liberal cultures that require veil will ask for it only to protect face from public display, but showing it to a law officer, represent of the state, is hardly a public display. It's like undressing in front of a Doctor.
That's not what I've heard when I was there.America's unemployment rate is only a couple of points higher than Switzerland's. Americans are willing to do dirty jobs, but they expect to get paid minimum wage and minimum benefits. By accepting less, they would be diluting the work of the early unions who fought so hard for workers rights only a couple of generations ago.
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Dracomax
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Trust me. I've done dirty jobs. I'm willing to take what I have to. I won't take less than minimum wage.
Also, in my opinion, English should be made the official language of the US government, and any suits because English is the only language represented should be thrown out of court.
Finally, I don't think a fence will stop anything, although it might slow down the lazier illegals. I am of mixed opinion over illegals anyway.
Many illegal immigrants are merely seeking a better life, or to support their family with money that actually has worth. What is minimum wage for us can pay for a heck of a lot more in Mexico than it can here. The gevernment there is corrupt, and we have much better systems in place. On the other hand, there are many legal and illegal immigrants who want nothing more than to take the southern US back for Mexico, along with it's resources. There are many who just want to impose their views on others(unlike certain US citizens).
In the end, I think the only way that illegal immigration will be stopped as a problem is to fix Mexico. They need to get US money out, and build their own economy. They need to vote in a government that watches out for it's people.
The Us can't force this to happen, but there are steps than can be taken to help nudge it.
First, we could loan Mexican engineers the money to build facotries, along with lowiering tariffs for import/export from their. At the same time, we could work with the Mexican government to ensure that this is not taken advantage of by US buisnesses.
We could help to establish better methods of farming and agriculture designed for the mexican environment.
we could use our economic power to nucge them in a better direction.
When Mexico is working for it's people, then the problem will solve, as people will no longer be desperate to get out--and without the massive immigration problems taxing INS(or whatever they have in that place now) then it will be far easier to track down and stop potential terrorists.
Also, in my opinion, English should be made the official language of the US government, and any suits because English is the only language represented should be thrown out of court.
Finally, I don't think a fence will stop anything, although it might slow down the lazier illegals. I am of mixed opinion over illegals anyway.
Many illegal immigrants are merely seeking a better life, or to support their family with money that actually has worth. What is minimum wage for us can pay for a heck of a lot more in Mexico than it can here. The gevernment there is corrupt, and we have much better systems in place. On the other hand, there are many legal and illegal immigrants who want nothing more than to take the southern US back for Mexico, along with it's resources. There are many who just want to impose their views on others(unlike certain US citizens).
In the end, I think the only way that illegal immigration will be stopped as a problem is to fix Mexico. They need to get US money out, and build their own economy. They need to vote in a government that watches out for it's people.
The Us can't force this to happen, but there are steps than can be taken to help nudge it.
First, we could loan Mexican engineers the money to build facotries, along with lowiering tariffs for import/export from their. At the same time, we could work with the Mexican government to ensure that this is not taken advantage of by US buisnesses.
We could help to establish better methods of farming and agriculture designed for the mexican environment.
we could use our economic power to nucge them in a better direction.
When Mexico is working for it's people, then the problem will solve, as people will no longer be desperate to get out--and without the massive immigration problems taxing INS(or whatever they have in that place now) then it will be far easier to track down and stop potential terrorists.
You and TRI are the crazy mad ones.~Cope
Give a man a fire, keep him warm for a day; set a man on fire, keep him warm for life.~unknown
I understand that, but the girls' families and those giving death threats were protesting the remove-veil rule on religious grounds. If it is just a piece of clothing as you say, then they should remove it. If I were in Africa and my daughter went to an African school where the dress code required her to be topless, I would follow the rules or hire a tutor.But Swikan, stars and crosses are religious symbols, and veil is a piece of clothing.
Hmmm... But if the girls CHOSE not to wear them, what would their parents say? Actually, since we have heard so many stories of what happens when women DON'T wear them, under Taliban rule in Aftghanistan for example, it is hard NOT to feel that they are forced. But intellectually, yes I do understand that its a cultural thing and that these women/girls are following their cultural preferences. But they are now in France and must follow the rules of France.Western people have an impression that girls would rather not wear veils and that they are inforced by their parents, but this is not true, it's quite the lack of understanding of different culture.
Yes, but for a complete discussion, we each have to pick a perspective and speak from that. All the perspectives together make for the big picture, each person advocating theirs. We can all see SOMETHING in other perspectives, but it would confuse the conversation to speak from several. (and it makes for incredibly long posts) That most folks spoke their piece in a straightforward way (except for the original rant), let participants see other sides and advocate their own in response without flaming or arguement. Being here in Texas where much of what we are talking about is local news, I can speak best from that perspective and did so. As Nanda spoke from her family's perspective and Kisai spoke from her perspective as a Canadian. Each of us can see and acknowledge the other's position, but we can only speak from our own.Sure, but limiting yourself to one perspective, you condemn yourself to seeing only a partial picture of it, thus, probably not being quite right
(Actually, the bulk of this thread was a great discussion. It was a pleasure to agree and disagree with you all. Now if we can only convince the politicos to learn from our example! HAHAHAH!)
Quoted for truth, right there.It's all confusing, but then, reality is confusing.
Ahh... you here HERE when you heard we had high unemployment rates. That explains your perception, then. What we call high unemployment is low compared to much of the world. Our unemployment rates have been in the single digits for years and it is currently something like 5%.