Oh say can you hablo espanol? [Van rant]

[Shishio]

I hope I did not offend anyone, if I have made anyone uncomfortable, I apologize. I'm going on very little sleep here, so don't expect me to be too coherent or articulate, (This is why my previous post was so short.)

I don't expect anyone to give up their culture or anything, and I do not look down on immigrants, (Except those fuckers that expect another country to give them everything, and xenophobic assholes who think they and their country is superior to everyone, in which case, it makes no sense that they would emigrate, but that's beside the point.)

But I do expect immigrants to at least try to adapt as best they can. Learn the local language, and such. I mean, it just makes sense. Obviously learning languages is difficult, and I can sympathize, but it just makes sense. I mean, in regards to Mexicans immigrating to America, it's a case of people trying to make their lives better, right? They believe they see a way to do this, and strive to take advantage of the opportunity. That makes sense. What also makes sense is learning the local language so that you can better take advantage of the opportunity before you. It just makes sense.

As for what you said Swikan, please explain how it's beside the point. Are you saying it's OK for our ancestors to have raped, plundered and murdered for us to have what we do today, to complain like whiny bitches when something a lot less worse happens to us? The world doesn't work like that.

[Swikan]

And what's wrong with being tribal? Worked for the Native americans...

Did it? And where are they now?

LOL! Good point. So are you saying that the earth is doomed because we have different laws, borders and cultures?

Either way, that is a philosophical point. We can't suddenly drop all borders and laws and give up our diverse cultures. In order to address things as they currently exist, border security is a good idea.

And how is being a llittle defensive of our own language and culture within our own borders a bad idea? We have made a lot of accomodations already, what's wrong with drawing a line and saying this as far as we're willing to go?

[Noise Monkey]

My family, aon my mother's side, is entirely from Mexico. They came here legally, as far as I'm aware, a long time ago and I often mock my mother for her horrible lack of awareness as far as the culture of her heritage goes.

That said, nations have laws. Immigration is something that has to be monitored for a number of reasons. We can't cry about national security and then let people come and go as they please. Do I think we could stand to let more people in than we do now? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that we can turn a blind eye to people who disregard the law.

The good of the many has to come before the good of the one, and illegal immigrants are trying to do it the other way around.

[Swikan]

I don't expect anyone to give up their culture or anything, and I do not look down on immigrants, (Except those fuckers that expect another country to give them everything, and xenophobic assholes who think they and their country is superior to everyone, in which case, it makes no sense that they would emigrate, but that's beside the point.)

But I do expect immigrants to at least try to adapt as best they can. Learn the local language, and such. I mean, it just makes sense. Obviously learning languages is difficult, and I can sympathize, but it just makes sense. I mean, in regards to Mexicans immigrating to America, it's a case of people trying to make their lives better, right? They believe they see a way to do this, and strive to take advantage of the opportunity. That makes sense. What also makes sense is learning the local language so that you can better take advantage of the opportunity before you. It just makes sense.

I so agree with you there and I believe that is what the Original Poster was saying also.

As for what you said Swikan, please explain how it's beside the point. Are you saying it's OK for our ancestors to have raped, plundered and murdered for us to have what we do today, to complain like whiny bitches when something a lot less worse happens to us? The world doesn't work like that.

Are you saying it's okay for the US and Canada to let it happen to us because our ancestors did it to the natives? The world doesn't work like that either. *I* certainly haven't raped, plundered or murdered anyone. Are you saying I don't have a right to defend my home, state, country, society, way of life because the people who came here 500 years ago were bad? Of course you aren't, I know that. Which is why the references to what happened 500 years ago is philosopical. Right now, THIS country is my native soil. I am a NATIVE American. And if my family is a product of immimgration from back then, so be it. That doesn't change a thing. Everyone in the world is the product of immigration if you go back far enough, beyond leaving the Fertile Cresecnt.

Rape plunder and murder is NOT ever acceptable. I'm saying its philosophical because we can't UNDO what was already done. Solving this problem must be PRACTICAL not philosophical.

[Nanda]

And what's wrong with being tribal? Worked for the Native americans...

Did it? And where are they now?

LOL! Good point. So are you saying that the earth is doomed because we have different laws, borders and cultures?

That's a little extreme...

Honestly, I don't have a problem with immigration being monitored. What I do have a problem with is "us" and "them" mentality, and the only reason I piped up at all was because there seemed to be a whole lot of that going on in this thread.

Plus I like to play devil's advocate.

[Linkara]

Shishio - Don't worry, I don't think anyone's been offended. ^_^ However, to address the Indian thing, of course it's not okay what our ancestors did (well, not my ancestors, but you get my drift). I'm not going to try to say that what they did was right, but to compare illegal immigration to the taking of this land is not an equal thing.

To quote from Buffy the Vampire Slayer:

Spike: I just can't take all this mamby-pamby boo-hooing about the bloody indians.
Willow: Uh, the preferred term--
Spike: You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did, and he's not going around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it". The history of the world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story.

It's certainly not right, but it's what happened and I don't think it'd happen today.

[Nanda]

It's certainly not right, but it's what happened and I don't think it'd happen today.

Oh yeah, you never see genocide anymore...

But this is getting off topic.

[Swikan]

Plus I like to play devil's advocate.

Hee hee.. you did a very good job and carried the thread into a great discussion.

As for the "us" and "them" going on in the thread, I think that particular bit of semantics is more a matter of "typlistical" convenience (sore fingeritis).

[Nanda]

As for the "us" and "them" going on in the thread, I think that particular bit of semantics is more a matter of "typlistical" convenience (sore fingeritis).

ENGLISH MOTHERF**KERS! YOU ES F**KING COMPRENDE?!

Some Hispanic motherf**ker

For all you pro-illegal alien douches out there

I'm sure that's what it is.

[Rkolter]

You know, people have dealt with rules their entire lives. Most rule schemes can be boiled down to:

There are rules.
There are penalties for not following the rules.
If you follow the rules, you are good.
If you do not follow the rules, you are not good.
If you do not follow the rules, the penalties are enforced.

Sports, work, life, immigration, it's all the same. there is no us vs. them. There's just the majority that play by the rules, and the criminals who do not.

I always laugh when an illegal immigrant says he's a good person and follows the rules. It's like a drunk driver who manages to stay between the lines and under the speed limit.

[Mr.Bob]

My only qualm is the seemingly absurd turn of events that have led to the building of an actual physical WALL as a last resort to stem the tide immigration.
I'd have thought we'd reached an age where more elaborate and intelligent alternative proposals would've been put in place instead of this medieval method.

Nearly every country in the world shares the same problem with unwanted immigration, and with only a few exceptions, they are yet to reach such an impasse.

[MixedMyth]

And what's wrong with being tribal? Worked for the Native americans...

Did it? And where are they now?

Here and there and all around. Quite a few still live on rezes, quite a few live in the rest of the US. Just 'cause you don't hear much about someone doesn't mean they aren't there.

[YarpsDat]

... taking away work from American ...

It doesn't actually work like that.
They don't take the work away, they are given the work instead of Americans because they are willing to do simple works for less than minimal wage.
Since they are in the country illegal, they can't complain ect. ect.

Now, if they were allowed to enter, they would be there legal, they could sue the employer if they didn't get the minimal wage and everything.
Then they would be no different workers than Americans. And if they didn't speak English they'd have problem finding jobs.
(BTW, printing official documents in several languages, when knowing English is (is it?) required to be a citizen is kinda silly.)

Of course, there are no simple answers, but I think having some immigrants win minimal wage lawsuits, and awarding them huge compensations from their employers would deal with the problem.


On a side note, could I suggest noone take this thread personally? Eg. you shouldn't feel obliged to comment every post presenting a different opinion - give other people a chance to do that for you, the results may be enlightening...
<_<

[Noise Monkey]

... taking away work from American ...

It doesn't actually work like that.
They don't take the work away, they are given the work instead of Americans because they are willing to do simple works for less than minimal wage.
Since they are in the country illegal, they can't complain ect. ect.

Now, if they were allowed to enter, they would be there legal, they could sue the employer if they didn't get the minimal wage and everything.
Then they would be no different workers than Americans. And if they didn't speak English they'd have problem finding jobs.
(BTW, printing official documents in several languages, when knowing English is (is it?) required to be a citizen is kinda silly.)

Whenever illegals are found working for less than minimum wage, they should receive backpay for the work they did, raising it to minimum wage, then given the boot back home with the threat of serious jailtime if they come back illegally again.

[Rkolter]

Despite how it may appear, the United States of America does not have a language legally designated as it's official language.

[Noise Monkey]

Also, despite appearances, white is not the legally preferred color.

[Grabmygoblin]

ugh I am too tired to deal with this. But I need to point out that we make legal immigration HARD. while we do accept more immigrants than other nations, most must to prove themselves by earning degrees within their own nations, and face quotas based on numbers, not percentages. you guys say what you want, but the old guy who barely spoke any english that worked with my mom packing onions who crossed desert and ducked border patrols is just as American as me, papers or none. my issues?

1) Companies do not enforce the minimum wage when employing illegals. these people can literally become slaves, working in exchange for another day when they are not turned into the INS.

2) Mexico is pushing people out of the nation. they encourage illegal immigration, because it is easier to push people out than to deal with the problems.

3) NAFTA has undermined working conditions in North, Central, and South America, and the problems can be fixed easily by just adding fair labor standards to the law and enforcing them.

4) most immigrants are trying to learn english. just be a little patient, I know I suck at other languages.

5) racists. while most who oppose immigration today are not, the language used is the same damn language used by the Know-Nothings and Nativists. (used, btw, to restrict Irish immigration when my great-grandmother snuk in illegally)

this all probably came out more offensive than I intended... I'm going to bed.

[Swikan]

YarpsDat and Grabmygoblin made some good (sleepy) points. Especially about wages and slavery. Those of us who have studied the Civil War will recall how the south said that Slavery was integral to the economy and if they did away with it, the south would collapse. Which is pretty much what the companies/industries who rely on illegal immigrant labor say.

Also, Just a few generations ago, Americans (and I guess Canadians too, but I don't know much about their labor history) fought HARD to insure that companies provide a decent wage and basic benefits and safe working conditions. Companies don't have to do that for people they are paying under the table. Of course no Americans will take those jobs for the wages and on the conditions that those companies want to pay.

[Guildmaster Van]

Wow, this topic sure exploded.

Certainly. And how's your Inuit?

- Joel Fagin

I know you're too intelligent to use such blatently flawed logic.
I go back to that comment about conquering made earlier in the thread - the world was conquered and colonized by Europe. Our ancestors crushed and killed those who stood in their path without remorse or regret. Some of our ancestors were kinder to some of those who were conquered - some were not. It's unfair and it's in the past, and our society doesn't have the time or the need to apologize for the sins of our fathers.

Of course, I already know I didn't have to explain that to you.

As for the "us" and "them" going on in the thread, I think that particular bit of semantics is more a matter of "typlistical" convenience (sore fingeritis).

I'm sure that's what it is.

This topic was labelled "rant" for reason - I was being blatently honest.
The whole "them and us" bit is nothing more than imagined rhetoric that is being exploted by those who feel persecuted. Just because some douche at some point decided to dress up in white bed sheets and act like an ignorant twit doesn't mean that everyone who is against illegal immigrants is a card carrying klansmen. It's not "them and us" - it's "us and those who disobey the law". The illegal immigration debate is about illegal immigration - not about race.

It doesn't actually work like that.
They don't take the work away, they are given the work instead of Americans because they are willing to do simple works for less than minimal wage.
Since they are in the country illegal, they can't complain ect. ect.

That still amounts to the same thing I said, only with more emphasis on the slime employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants to exploit them :p

Despite how it may appear, the United States of America does not have a language legally designated as it's official language.

While that is indeed true over 80% of the American population speaks English in their homes. Given that America is made of so many different races why should Spanish speakers be given special treatment?

[Rkolter]

Despite how it may appear, the United States of America does not have a language legally designated as it's official language.

While that is indeed true over 80% of the American population speaks English in their homes. Given that America is made of so many different races why should Spanish speakers be given special treatment?

I wasn't arguing with you here, I was just pointing out something a lot of people weren't aware of.

I am all for requiring every American to be able to converse in English. I have no idea the best way to do or enforce that, but it would cut down on communication problems. Speak and learn any language you like, but also be able to communicate in English.