Human Technology

[AYBABTU]

Humans on the other side of the mist wall, have they reached modern times yet? If so, then they should have modern-day technology. Have they reached modern times yet?

[AYBABTU]

If they have, it would be cool to see Q go up against human security guards armed with M-16s.

[Tom Mazanec]

A century ago they were visited by a human. His background indicated they were just entering a Renaissance (sp?). By now they might have printing presses and gunpowder (if only because the explorer got the idea from them) and maybe such tricks as lenses (I don't remember the Racconans using them, but it's an easy idea to come up with once glassmaking advances enough...just look through a raindrop).

[AYBABTU]

So, some basic technologies then. Alright. This is sure to be educational for Q.

[Maxgoof]

Actually, some corrections need to be made.

Remember, Quentyn of Ridgedale disappeared 200 years ago.

Yet, the human met him.

In fact, the meeting of the human with the racconan *began* the era of trade, which *ended* about 200 years ago.

So, the amount of time is more like 300 years.

But realize...the difference between the technology of 1400 and 1700 is not a whole lot.

[EdBecerra]

Uhh.. Max? Actually, it IS rather large. It's just that we screwed up.

The list of "Almost became public" inventions would either have you in denial, or screaming in frustration.

For example, the percussion cap was discovered in the 1600's - then promptly forgotten.

Major Ferguson invented a practical and reliable breechloader in the 1700's.

And, for that matter, people realized that a properly cut piece of quarts emitted sparks when struck by a hammer ages ago. The spark plug. (which, as the Polish-American author Leo Frankowski points out, can also be used an an alternate source of ignition for a firearm.)

Granted, I'm rather focused on firearms, but as a retired gunsmith, that's understandable.

And of course, anyone who reads the notebooks of Leonardo da Vinci and realizes all the missed opportunities... *sigh*

[Acolyte]

Leonardo was considerably ahead of his time. For example, his idea for a helicopter was basically sound, but he didn't have anything like the kind of engine that would have been needed to get the thing off the ground. Most of his unrealized ideas were like that -- there was some crucial bit of complex infrastructure that just wasn't there yet.

Antiquity from Classical Greece to the Roman Empire could have had steam power; the principles were well-known to them. But their society with its reliance on slave labor didn't provide an impetus to develop it. Why go to all the expense of building a railroad when slaves could transport it so cheaply? We know they had complicated clockworks such as the Antikythera mechanism, which cannot have been a unique device. They probably had many, many other technologies whose existence was completely forgotten.

(I'm not sure what connection you intend to make with quartz and spark plugs. Piezoelectricity is used in some cigarette lighters and could conceivably be used to set off a charge, but a spark plug is something different.)

The point is that even a relatively high degree of technological advancement doesn't mean that advances will continue, or that a current level will be maintained. Even at the beginning of the Renaissance Europe was rather more primitive in many ways than it had been 1,000 years earlier.

[EdBecerra]

The point is that even a relatively high degree of technological advancement doesn't mean that advances will continue, or that a current level will be maintained. Even at the beginning of the Renaissance Europe was rather more primitive in many ways than it had been 1,000 years earlier.

If I believed that, I'd have to start praying for another Chicxulub event. I suppose that's my particular weakness - the thought that we'll never get off this rock and colonize the universe horrifies me at a deep level. I want - no, need - to believe that we're going to hit a technological singularity, and hit it soon.

I suppose that's MY religion, if I have anything close to one.

[Tom Mazanec]

The explorer was amazed by the Racconnan's indoor plumbing. IIRC, even the Minoans had that.

[RHJunior]

Uhh.. Max? Actually, it IS rather large. It's just that we screwed up.

The list of "Almost became public" inventions would either have you in denial, or screaming in frustration.

For example, the percussion cap was discovered in the 1600's - then promptly forgotten.

Major Ferguson invented a practical and reliable breechloader in the 1700's.

And, for that matter, people realized that a properly cut piece of quarts emitted sparks when struck by a hammer ages ago. The spark plug. (which, as the Polish-American author Leo Frankowski points out, can also be used an an alternate source of ignition for a firearm.)

Granted, I'm rather focused on firearms, but as a retired gunsmith, that's understandable.

And of course, anyone who reads the notebooks of Leonardo da Vinci and realizes all the missed opportunities... *sigh*

Submitted that most of those inventions you describe most likely failed because they came about in a time when there wasn't an infrastructure capable of sustaining them. You could, hypothetically, have designed an aluminum-skinned aircraft back in the days of the Wright Brothers--- but in an era when Aluminum was still a precious metal, who would have built it, and who could have kept it in repair?

A piezoelectric firing pin for a musket WOULD have been most intriguing. But I suspect the reason the idea never caught on was that flint for flintlocks was cheaper, easier to find, easier to work, and easier to GET to work, than quartz. And consider how it would have changed the course of gun design evolution, had it become the firing mechanism of choice. It may have actually DELAYED other developments. Could brass casings and firing pins... and subsequently rapid fire weapons such as revolvers, semiautomatics, machine guns.... have developed if everyone was hidebound to using brittle quartz crystal firing devices? I suspect it would have turned out to be a dead-end design branch anyway.

[Acolyte]

The explorer was amazed by the Racconnan's indoor plumbing. IIRC, even the Minoans had that.

They had indoor plumbing in the sense that they could direct water to where it was needed inside a building. They didn't have it in the sense of flush toilets. (Since the drains were gutters in the floors covered with paving slabs the odor would have, well, escaped.)

Now, the Romans did have indoor plumbing in that sense, at least for their public toilets. They directed a continuous stream of water through the... um... receiving area that kept it flushed out. Of course, the effluvia was piped right into the Tiber via the Cloaca Maxima (a stream that had been paved over and became Rome's main sewer line) so you really didn't want to bathe in that river downstream from the city. But it was better than the alternative, I suppose.

If I believed that, I'd have to start praying for another Chicxulub event.

So if we can't get off the planet we should all die as soon as possible? That seems counterproductive, to say the least.

[Maxgoof]

It should also be remembered that invention and technology are two different things. Just because the science has been uncovered, doesn't mean it has been applied.

When it comes to society as a whole, there is little difference, technology-wise, between the 1400 and the 1700.

[Atarlost]

Browsing the wikipedia timeline I find that between 1400 and 1700 navigation improved vastly and in the 17th century classical physics and calculus were born. Firearms went from nearly useless to dominating warfare. Modern political philosophy was born. The little ice age also began during this time.

Of course people keep assuming it's 1400 to 1700. What if it's 1500 to 1800? If the story is placed in an English environment the industrial revolution would be well underway.

Additionally there are as I understand rare human mages. A mage can in some magical schemes bootstrap from principle to product without going through the infrastructural development. Whether this is possible depends almost entirely on the fine control of the mage, not his power. Luxcraft seems to be precise and controlled enough to do this if human mages posess the kenning abilities of raconna. As an example if a mage can shape metal to finer tolerances than it can be cast or forged he can create high quality machine tools if he has the idea. A partnership between someone like Leonardo DaVinci and a skilled mage could advance technology greatly provided they get the idea of using magic to make nonmagical tools rather than trying to se magic to create the finished product. Such use of magic could potentially move the industrial revolution centuries earlier. On the other hand the existance of magic can stifle the growth of technology. It's really the author's choice.

As another example the raccona already have magical logic gates. If a Babbage comes along in Raccona society his ideas can now be implemented rapidly because there's a magical device that can do the job at an affordable price rather than waiting for the invention of the vacuum tube or using impossibly expensive mechanical components. Lux computers may dead end because rune patterns may have to be hand crafted, but they should be able to match anything pre-integrated circuit.

[AYBABTU]

It seems I've asked the question everyone had on their minds, but didn't ask. All these answers are good ones, but, then again, nothing solid. Guess we'll just have to wait and see if Quentyn goes up again humans with swords, humans with M16s and frag grenades, or humans with muskets and bayonets. Or somewhere in-between.

[Maxgoof]

Look, if you wanted to check the difference between 1700 and 2000, yes, you are going to see a huge difference. If you compare 800 to 1100, however, you will see virtually none.

We fall into the trap of thinking that just because they are at a particular technological level that the rate of rise in that technology will parallel ours. This is not necessarily so. Scientific and technological advances require the work of individuals, not society as a whole (Something that I have always had a big argument with Isaac Asimov about. He predicated Foundation on idea that the behavior of society in the trillions would be easily predicted, then has all the changes in society done by individuals.)

My point is that the passage of 300 years does not necessarily mean that the Outside will be drastically different from when they last saw it.

[Tom Mazanec]

Actually, IIRC, it is 500 since they sealed themselves off. Which brings up another interesting point. The English language has changed dramatically from the 15th to the 20th century...especially if you bear in mind that people actually PRONOUNCED those weird spelling differences ("enough" was pronounced like a German would pronounce the gh...and I forget where they were in the Great Vowel Shift). And if you compare the English of the 11th and 16th century, you almost might as well be comparing 21st century Frisian and English. Will Quentyn be able to communicate, or will his dialect be so strange that he will have trouble? And don't forget, Racconans will have a different accent, because their vocal tracts are different. Humans may no longer be used to this, and Racconans may have exaggerated their accent because they no longer have to conform to human communication.

[JakeWasHere]

Actually, IIRC, it is 500 since they sealed themselves off. Which brings up another interesting point. The English language has changed dramatically from the 15th to the 20th century...especially if you bear in mind that people actually PRONOUNCED those weird spelling differences ("enough" was pronounced like a German would pronounce the gh...and I forget where they were in the Great Vowel Shift). And if you compare the English of the 11th and 16th century, you almost might as well be comparing 21st century Frisian and English. Will Quentyn be able to communicate, or will his dialect be so strange that he will have trouble? And don't forget, Racconans will have a different accent, because their vocal tracts are different. Humans may no longer be used to this, and Racconans may have exaggerated their accent because they no longer have to conform to human communication.

Didn't Wanderwolf cover that in his 'fanfic' piece? He suggests that Quentyn's accent - and perhaps the Rac dialect as well - sounds excessively formal to a Hume shopkeeper. The dialects would naturally have evolved independently of one another; I can only imagine Racs and Humes attempting to understand each other's dialect, something on the level of Scots and Irishmen trying to understand each other in English, or worse, Gaelic.

(Reminded for some reason of William Burroughs making fun of people from Gibraltar. "We are Breetish, we haven't got no bloody dealect.")

[Tom Mazanec]

Nice point. The Racconans have a longer lifespan, so may have an archaic vocabulary, etc. And such things are often used in formal language.

[AYBABTU]

I'm sorry if this is getting annoying and repetitive, but I'll just say it again. I genuinely think that Quentyn should have to break into some insanely rich dude's uber-guarded mansion to get to one of the artifacts. I'm talking trained mercenaries armed with M16s, RPGs, combat knives, sniper rifles, tactical 12-gauge shotguns, maybe even a tank or some choppers. That would just make my day.

[Astral]

You loved the Mission Imposible films didn't you