Something about Tavatania...

Genecatlow · Post by **Genecatlow** » Mon Mar 12, 2001 2:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by RHJunior:
For some time, I've been trying to put my finger on what it was about the Premier that I found off-putting/disappointing.. there was just SOMETHING not quite completely formed there. After some time, I think I've come to a conclusion:
She just doesn't seem to FEEL anything. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/frown.gif">
Not that she comes across as cold or robotic.. but all her responses are muted, almost nonexistent-- bland as lukewarm milk. She doesn't laugh, she doesn't cry, she doesn't feel or show pain or anger or sorrow, even when confronted with things that would shatter another.
I'm sorry, but *regardless* of whether someone "knows" they're destined to win, they still suffer all the rage and pain and trauma and grief of being subjected to such cruelty and hate-- and they would *re-live* that pain in full when confronted with their old torment.
Peeking into the future wouldn't change that.
I guess I'm saying that Tavatania doesn't seem to display anything resembling-- character interrelation, for lack of a better term. She comes across as ALOOF from everything that makes other characters real and empathetic..anger, grief, joy,frienship, empathy or even love/romance.... far in excess of the explanation that "she already knows the outcome."
Bodhisivattas make for interesting eastern mysticism--- but they make for lousy characters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, at the moment, she is somewhat like that,
and the only reply I can give at the moment
is the same reply that I've given to some of
the other crtiques that I've received: I have
to clearly show how things are *now* so that
I can show how things *change*. Is Tavatiana
a somewhat distant type? In a way, she is.
But why? It is my responsibility to answer
that within the story. Cotton is the other
extreme, the totally emotional type (and there
have been those who posted on the message
board about him when he got *too* violent)
and he is changing within the story, too.

Jamie Jalecki · Post by **Jamie Jalecki** » Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:13 am

Hmm, yes. Tavatiana is quite a doe-bunny like no other! And I'll agree with the way how she doesn't believe in strong emotionalism, and how she's walking Cotton through to be much like her (though everybody's different). That is, for Cotton, not to get controlled and manipulated by strong emotions, particularly negative.
I doubt Tavatiana was raised by Vulcans! And aura-communications are a whole different thing compared to Vulcan mind-melds. And whereas she doesn't show strong emotions, how logical!
And those who disagree, I'd find that...*fascinating*, but most...*illogical*!

Ghostwolf · Post by **Ghostwolf** » Mon Mar 12, 2001 8:23 am

Food for thought, maybe she can't feel any strong emotions...an after affect of was done to her...Ghostwolf out...

RHJunior · Post by **RHJunior** » Mon Mar 12, 2001 12:04 pm

For some time, I've been trying to put my finger on what it was about the Premier that I found off-putting/disappointing.. there was just SOMETHING not quite completely formed there. After some time, I think I've come to a conclusion:
She just doesn't seem to FEEL anything. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/frown.gif">
Not that she comes across as cold or robotic.. but all her responses are muted, almost nonexistent-- bland as lukewarm milk. She doesn't laugh, she doesn't cry, she doesn't feel or show pain or anger or sorrow, even when confronted with things that would shatter another.
I'm sorry, but *regardless* of whether someone "knows" they're destined to win, they still suffer all the rage and pain and trauma and grief of being subjected to such cruelty and hate-- and they would *re-live* that pain in full when confronted with their old torment.
Peeking into the future wouldn't change that.
I guess I'm saying that Tavatania doesn't seem to display anything resembling-- character interrelation, for lack of a better term. She comes across as ALOOF from everything that makes other characters real and empathetic..anger, grief, joy,frienship, empathy or even love/romance.... far in excess of the explanation that "she already knows the outcome."
Bodhisivattas make for interesting eastern mysticism--- but they make for lousy characters.

RHJunior · Post by **RHJunior** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:09 am

I guess I have to restate/rephrase....
What bothers me is that there seems to be an underlying attitude that "Emotion = Bad"... (another example of feelings being more important, for good or ill, than actual deeds.) It's been a particular conceit of sci-fi for many decades, and to a lesser degree, fantasy works involving "enlightened beings", that superiority or higher states of being somehow equates to bland, unemotional tranquility and emotional passionlessness.
As one scifi writer observed, why is it that we assume some vast, superior alien race would have only super-INTELLIGENCE? Why not super-love, or super-sorrow, or super-loneliness?
And why, for that matter, do we equate passion-- love, anger, grief, joy-- with the primitive? The greatest intellects humanity has ever known have only fumbled at defining love, when every living soul instinctively understands it. Yet we invent fictional shamans and sensei and races of pointy-eared aliens who are somehow "more advanced" than "lowly" emotion.IRL, a shallow emotional base is a defining characteristic of a psychopath--- not a superior being.Sorry, off on a tangent there.My point (and I do have one) is that Tavatania is, thus far, a cheap play to that particular "enlightened being" stereotype-- somehow "above" those things that make anyone else "human", or for that matter, even worth knowing.Now, she may just be hiding her emotions under a protective shell.. but it's a mighty good one, considering she's spent most of the series communicating with others via this "sight of the soul".. and if your innermost nature didn't show up under THAT, when would it?
At the tail end of it-- regardless of their "greater perspective"-- all-knowing character types come across as not giving a tinker's damn about what those around them feel or care about. Even when their supersecret shamanistic rationale surfaces later, it just smacks of highhandedness-- not to mention a superiority attitude.Basically, the unshakeably tranquil enlightened types are:
1)Highly unlikely.
2)Impossible to empathize with.
3)danged annoying.Oh, and on a tangent:
There's nothing morally superior about letting a monster live. Monsters live quite well with guilt; it's how they became monsters in the first place.

BreeAnn · Post by **BreeAnn** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:36 am

If I may use a passage from the book "The Neverending Story":
~, her face was that of a human woman - in form at any rate, for the expression was far from human. It was hard to tell whether the face was smiling or whether it expressed deep greef or utter indifference. After looking at it for some time, Atreju seemed to see abysmal wickedness and cruelty, but a moment later he had to correct his impression, for he found only unruffled calm.
"Don't bother!" he heard the gnome's deep voice in his ear. "You won't solve it. It's the same with everyone. I've observed it all my life, and I haven't found the answer~
Perhaps Tavatania is like the Great Riddle Gate, an endless mystery to be solved, because no one, not even the creator himself, will be able to truly solve what goes on in her mind. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif">

Acheron · Post by **Acheron** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:59 am

Hmmm... the standpoint of one of my races, the Tarrshi(themselves a conglomerate of several "castes" with differing anthropomorphic appearances):Heart, mind, and body - passion, wisdom, and power - should grow in harmony, to the best of one's ability(if someone's paralysed below the waist, their "suitable" growth of body is obviously markedly different than someone who seemed to go right from crawling to running marathons). When this happens, their feral instincts and their civilised logic work in tune to make the right decisions, and their body is able to follow through on those decisions.Their standpoint on criminals: Someone who is sick in a way that can harm others should be kept away from the healthy people, and a cure attempted. If this cure is not possible... well, what do WE do to a rabid animal?Their society is harsh at times, but it functions and there is next to no crime. Scuffling, yes, but that tends to be friendly competition, or even play-fighting as is seen in animal cubs - though it gets a lot rougher at times.In a nutshell: I(the source of those above notions, after all) don't think there's anything so noble about supressing an integral part of you. Logic and emotion should be balanced.So perhaps Cotton and Tavatiana would be very good for each other in that respect... one the other's complement.------------------
<A HREF="http://acheron.n3.net" TARGET=_blank>acheron.n3.net</A>
Normalcy is a curse, conformity is living death. Leave them behind and embrace your true self.

Shad · Post by **Shad** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 4:32 am

She seemed to be laughing one time when the soul sight was used.

Genecatlow · Post by **Genecatlow** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 4:54 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jen Aside:
I find it rather annoying, actually, that other people would insist that there's anything "wrong" with your characters, Gene.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What I gain from their statements, Jen, is
that I've done what I set out to do - that is,
clearly define my characters. What they may
perceive as something 'wrong' is simply their
own interpretation. I'm personally satisfied
that I've been sucessful in giving them
someone to interpret in the first place.
Whether or not they would create such a
character the way *I* did it is of course
where opinion comes into play. I differentiate
between negative criticism and negative opinion.
Negative criticism is along the lines of "Your
art sucks", "I can't figure out what you're
trying to say", "You know, you really oughta
take more time trying to make your images tell
a story rather than just throwing anything up
there", and so forth. Negaive opinion is more
along the lines of what's been said recently.
Which I have no problem with at all. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I realize it's an observation, but is it something that should be "corrected"? I find it maddening that I might spend half my lifetime fine-tuning my characters to make them each distinctly different, only to be told later that all of them should be alike. I know I'm prolly overreacting, since Gene is more easygoing about comments and suggestions than I am, but I would have to wonder if it's even going to be worth the effort if no one will appreciate all the work I've put into it to show how So-and-So is a selfish, lazy goodfornothing, but he grows to understand why things need to work a certain way, and eventually initiates a plan to *successfully* develop world peace... I mean, to dismiss this character right from the start purely because I gave him the MOST room to grow...?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would only say: don't worry about it. For me,
the satisfaction is in being able to create
my story the way I want to. So far I
haven't been told that I'm doing a bad job at
telling it, only that individual readers don't
go for this part or that part. And that's cool.
I can't make everybody happy, but I've made
a greater number of them happy, and that
makes me happy. I hope that, within your own
personal storytelling milieu, and in your own
personal way, you will be able to create a
work that will make *you* happy. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But I'm preaching to the choir... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/frown.gif"> Ah, well. Eric says he digs the action, Gene. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif"> Me, too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cool! ^_^[This message has been edited by genecatlow (edited 03-13-2001).]

Genecatlow · Post by **Genecatlow** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:02 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by BreeAnn:
Perhaps Tavatania is like the Great Riddle Gate, an endless mystery to be solved, because no one, not even the creator himself, will be able to truly solve what goes on in her mind. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin ... BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, mysterious in some ways, but not quite
an endless way, I hope! <=)

Genecatlow · Post by **Genecatlow** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Shad:
She seemed to be laughing one time when the soul sight was used.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, she did. And she seemed sad but resolute
when she related how she had been deposed. And
she seemed somewhat sorrowful when she told
Cotton that she might not be able to help him
much longer. And.......................

Darking · Post by **Darking** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:04 am

Well, in some sci-fi that I've watched and read, broadcast telepaths, people with the ability to send thoughts, need to mute their emotions lest they fry the brains of everyone around them.With "the Sight of the Soul" it may be different, tho. It could be that Tavatania sees a taint appear on one's soul if anger or rage overcomes them. She may need to keep her emotions in check in order to prevent this taint from affecting her.Of course, this is all speculation on my part.

Jen Aside · Post by **Jen Aside** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:38 am

I find it rather annoying, actually, that other people would insist that there's anything "wrong" with your characters, Gene. I understand something like, "Cotton is supposed to be super-hyperactive, yet you haven't really drawn him like that since stating so" (not that this is the case, just stating an example), but simply "Cotton has too much of a temper" or "Tavi is too cold, distant" is... that's part of their characters, right?Tavi (Tavatiana--it's shorter to write) is an ambassador from Canovia. She would be expected to be proper and a good representative of her country. Her position would not leave her as free to let her emotions cloud her judgment as Cotton is--in fact, she has had to teach Cotton how to better control his by providing reason above "Bad man evil! Bad man die!" <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/redface.gif"> It's not about "He did these awful things to me, he must pay!" because that emotion is counterproductive to her goal of stopping Cotton from shooting Thade.Perhaps she's Japanese in that respect--the same "coldness" that Americans might perceive the Japanese as having. It has to do with how she's been raised, etc., that she isn't as happy-touchy-feely as some of you might think she should be. But not everyone is born and raised the same way--there are going to be differences in character. It's part of what makes them more real, to not follow some set of guidelines as to what someone SHOULD be like... and it also provides room for character development and growth.I realize it's an observation, but is it something that should be "corrected"? I find it maddening that I might spend half my lifetime fine-tuning my characters to make them each distinctly different, only to be told later that all of them should be alike. I know I'm prolly overreacting, since Gene is more easygoing about comments and suggestions than I am, but I would have to wonder if it's even going to be worth the effort if no one will appreciate all the work I've put into it to show how So-and-So is a selfish, lazy goodfornothing, but he grows to understand why things need to work a certain way, and eventually initiates a plan to *successfully* develop world peace... I mean, to dismiss this character right from the start purely because I gave him the MOST room to grow...?But I'm preaching to the choir... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/frown.gif"> Ah, well. Eric says he digs the action, Gene. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif"> Me, too.

Shad · Post by **Shad** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 11:43 am

I know, thats what I do at school, although I wear the mask of the kind of person that wants to be left alone, the unsocial guy, the guy who looks like he's had a rough life...

BillBrd1 · Post by **BillBrd1** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Shad:
I know, thats what I do at school, although I wear the mask of the kind of person that wants to be left alone, the unsocial guy, the guy who looks like he's had a rough life...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm the same way. In real life, you'd think I was an entirely different person. Well, maybe not. You'd probably think I was depressing because I prefer to be alone and rarely talk. But once you'd get me talking, you'd notice a "cleverness" that would make you think "Yep, that's Bill" <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin ... cleverness Did I just make myself sound egotistical? Oh what does it matter. I'm typing on a computer so in a way, I'm not making any sound. Well, then again, I am making a sound when I click the mouse or tap the keys on the keyboard or maybe.....:SMACK!:I'll be quiet now.

UncleMonty · Post by **UncleMonty** » Sat Mar 17, 2001 11:29 am

You know, it's funny. I hadn't seen her as being exceptionally "cold" at all, merely professionally polite as any person of rank, responsibility, or power must be.
With Cotton, she seemed friendly, if a little reserved. This is understandable as well, for he is a stranger at first, and she must consider how he would be accepted by her nation's people, should she return to power.In any case, this story is entertaining enough to keep us talking about it, so Gene must be doing a pretty good job.(Twice as fun as a mind meld with a telepathic rabbit at Starbuck's!)

Genecatlow · Post by **Genecatlow** » Sun Mar 18, 2001 1:14 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by UncleMonty:
You know, it's funny. I hadn't seen her as being exceptionally "cold" at all, merely professionally polite as any person of rank, responsibility, or power must be.
With Cotton, she seemed friendly, if a little reserved. This is understandable as well, for he is a stranger at first, and she must consider how he would be accepted by her nation's people, should she return to power.In any case, this story is entertaining enough to keep us talking about it, so Gene must be doing a pretty good job.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you thank you thank you! That, more
than anything else, is what I want to do. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
(Twice as fun as a mind meld with a telepathic rabbit at Starbuck's!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hopefully fun... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif">

Genecatlow · Post by **Genecatlow** » Sun Mar 18, 2001 1:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by BreeAnn:
I'm gonna go with Jen's comment about Tavitania possibly being like the Japanese. Her demeanor is very much like the Asian businessmen I've seen while at my mother's office. Very formal, very polite, occasionally will smile or laugh, but usually very serious.[This message has been edited by BreeAnn (edited 03-18-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's very much what I was hoping was the
feeling that would get across. Such people
have their own inner reservoir of emotion.
Which is the next side of her that I will
work with.

Genecatlow · Post by **Genecatlow** » Sun Mar 18, 2001 1:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jen Aside:
Well, yes... although I must admit that sometimes negative (or, "opposite," at least) opinion still bothers me...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With me, all kinds of critiques are necessary
for me to hear, as long as they don't turn
into ultimatums from readers who demand that
you do things their way. As I've said before,
there's no one who can critique me harsher
than I've done myself, and though I don't let
what (very) little unwarranted crticism bug me,
to not want to hear anything but compliments
can cripple you as an artist. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The most opposite I can think of is how G.R.
Eddy portrayed Sir Kain as a Paladin. Hopefully no one gets THAT drasticly "wrong" an impression of my characters, but with something like that, it's a wonder whether people are actually paying attention, or if they think a "character" is just a poseable costume with no guiding rules to go by... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/frown.gif">Which is why it bothers me some when someone says, "So-and-so is my favorite character [solely] because he's so KYOOTE!!" <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/confuse ... BLOCKQUOTE>
One of the BIG discoveries I made with the
previous little "Bits & Pieces" comic I had on
my own site was this: You can't make everyone
happy. If the overwhelming majority of the
readers you have "get it", and only one
"doesn't get it" you're doing it right. The
possibility that some reader, somewhere, has
read what you're creating wrong is an
unfortunate but real inevitability. -_-

BreeAnn · Post by **BreeAnn** » Sun Mar 18, 2001 5:48 am

I'm gonna go with Jen's comment about Tavitania possibly being like the Japanese. Her demeanor is very much like the Asian businessmen I've seen while at my mother's office. Very formal, very polite, occasionally will smile or laugh, but usually very serious.[This message has been edited by BreeAnn (edited 03-18-2001).]