If you could rename Keenspace, what would you rename it as?

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:10 pm

mcDuffies wrote:
Well you certainly seem to be all gung-ho for getting Space out of Keen.
I think it would help Space. Of course, it's easier for me to have a firm attitude since I have no call in it. If I had a call, that would mean some actual responsibility so I guess I wouldn't form opinion so easily. But that's the way it is.

Well all I see is how it makes it easier for the cycle of anti-Space abuse to continue on the part of Spot because now they won't be attacking fellow Keeners but an entirely seperate entity which is actually their competition.

I just see it as further marginalizing an already marginalized segment of the webcomic community.

I did read what you said and it while you may not approve of Spots actions you are advocating the same system they are advocating. The difference is you seem to think it will be good for us while Spotters seem to think it will make it easier to exploit yet continue to bash Spacers without getting mud on themselves.

Fadedflame · Post by **Fadedflame** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:22 pm

I see good and bad in both, however after this one little bit I'm going to just list some prospective names.

[Off topicish]
Readers don't care, you're average reader KNOWS about keenspace, they don't about keenspot. The people that this is going to effect the most are well, spotters and spacers. Change happens, it's the process of life and business. So keep the space part, we will sitll be spacers, which is what we refer to ourselves as anyways. Yeah a few hits here and there are going to change until things settle down, but as long as there is good redirecting and time to fix links and such, it shouldn't be that much of a change.
When people read your comic they think 'Hey, I like this comic I'm going to save The Flames That Fade* to my favs so i can keep an eye on it.' Not, 'Oh geeze, it's a KEENspace comic it sucks." Yes I know there are some misconceptions about quality, it's gonna happen everywhere but the majority of people just don't care

*As example
[/Off topicish]

I actually really like DoomBees, and inkspace and myriadspace.
Here is a couple of suggestions:

AuspiciouSpace or AuspiciousSpace
PropitiouSpace or PropitiousSpace
NeotericSpace
NeroticSpace
PertSpace
InventiveSpace
TheWorkSpace
DepictionSpace
StoryboardSpace

Eh I'll think of more later.

Executor_Arthas · Post by **Executor_Arthas** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:31 pm

Faub, I honestly like your idea, but I have bigger plans than that for me and some of my online friends. The main problem with your idea, is actually DOING it, because ordering stuff is a tricky thing (I know, because almost everyone in my family has a buisness, and I'm trying to start one online.). The thing is, that if you don't order enough, you'll have to pay extra to get more made, but also if you make too much, than you're stuck with the shirts that you can't sell. I'd say the best bet is to do an IP address poll where the same IP can't vote twice, and ask people who'd buy them. Then after about 2 weeks-1 month, take down the poll, and look at the numbers, and get about 1/3 worth of yeses in total merchandising. Then do other polls on shirt designs, just to see what people WOULD buy. Then calculate every thing accordingly, and get so many prints of each shirt available. It'll take longer, but in the long run, it'll save you more money than assuming what'd sell. Take for example a LRG straw hat that noone thought would ever sell, became the best selling hat that they had, they sold completely out, and then they were losing money on re-orders. People like new and different things, but there are different tastes in different people. Oh, and Ghastly, I still don't know why YOU haven't gone independant. That providing, you actually post here more than once or twice every month or two like Sortelli and Poe...

IVstudios · Post by **IVstudios** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:58 pm

No offence Ghastly, but you seem to be taking this way too personally. I don't really think the Spotters hate Space as much as you claim. This whole thing sounds like a strictly business maneuver, you make it sound like the Spotters are just looking for a reason to put us down. Your starting to sound like one of those minority characters in a movie that take everything a white person says and interprets it as a racist comment about them.

Wp · Post by Wp » Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:05 pm

As resident "old man," he gets the right to bitch as much as possible. Hehe, j/k.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:12 pm

It's just that considering the attitudes of the Spotters who have been pushing for the disassociation of Space over the years it's much easier for me to see this as an attempt to further degrade Space under the pretense of it being a business decision.

It's not all Spotters that hate Space, but the ones that do are very nasty about it as many of us have experienced first hand.

IVstudios · Post by **IVstudios** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:27 pm

Well, I guess you would know better having been around a lot longer than I. But it seems like its gotten to the point that you're not only mad at Spotters, your mad at anyone who isn't mad at Spotters. Still, your one of the most reasonable people I've seen on the forums, so they must have done something really bad to get you this angry.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm

Executor_Arthas wrote:Oh, and Ghastly, I still don't know why YOU haven't gone independant.

Having the worlds best day job leaves me much less motivated to try and make a living off my webcomic. I've been happy for quite some time as I've always been making more money off it than I put into it. I've also been very passionate about improving things on Keenspace as I'm rather fond of the community here and see a lot of potential for it. There has also been, until recently, plenty of room for me to grow on Keenspace.

Now I'm number one on Space, there's nowhere left to go here. Keen has no merchandising opportunites for me. Keen has no promotional opportunities for me. Keen has no publishing opportunites for me. And while it is nice to be responsible for the adsales on my website that's only part of the ambitions I have for my webcomic. Having exhausted all Keen has to offer me there's nowhere left for me to go for further success except independent which I will be doing once Webcomics Nation is up and running.

I could be making a lot more money by going independent right now (the share of adrevinues I've share with Keen in the 3.5 months I've been in charge of my sites ad revinues would more than pay for a year's hosting for my comic on another server) but as I said before. I'm not about the money. Waiting for Webcomics Nation to become active on Keen I'm at least contributing something to the organization and to the community that I have cared so deeply for the past three and a half years. It'll make it seem less like my decision to go independent is motivated out of bitterness or resentment when the time comes for me to move on if I spend the last remaining months (and I hope it's only going to be months, not years before WCN is up and running) as part of the Keen family.

Besides which, Chris Crosby went out on a limb by making the executive decision to put responsibility for my site's adrevinues in my hands and since my ad model has proven to be profitable I certainly feel a debt of gratitude to him to remain a loyal Spacer to the very last rather than taking the money and running another server.

I won't be here forever and when I do leave Keen I hope to leave behind a stronger Keen and one with more opportunity and equality for Spacers and one where the administration doesn't allow the Spacers to be bullied by the Spotters and hopefully one where Spacers will feel secure enough to stand up against Spotters and Keen when they're being victimized and not simply accept it as their lot in life.

Despite what some on Spot would tell you, they are not superiour artists to you by merit of being on Spot while you are on Space. Nor are they professionals and Spacers mere amatures. Nor is their contribution to Keen more significant simply because they are on Spot while you are on Space. Being on Spot does not mean they are better than you nor does being on Space mean you should be exploited and degraded. You deserve every bit the respect that your work merits from Keen and your peers in the industry as Spotters do. Never forget that and never let someone on Spot tell you that you deserve less because they are employees and you're just a customer.

Ol' Uncle Ghastly won't be around forever to remind you of that.

Pockybot · Post by **Pockybot** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:02 pm

Honestly, if being independant and successful in some way is truly your aim, or if you are truly serious...not beign affiliated with any free webcomic hosting would be a start. So ya used keen, or dd, etc as a springboard...time to graduate. Instead of being gamercheese.keenspace.com get the $8 godaddy.com URL buy and have http://www.gamercheese.com ya know?

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:03 pm

ivstudios wrote:Well, I guess you would know better having been around a lot longer than I. But it seems like its gotten to the point that you're not only mad at Spotters, your mad at anyone who isn't mad at Spotters. Still, your one of the most reasonable people I've seen on the forums, so they must have done something really bad to get you this angry.

Yeah I do kind of come off a little strong at times and as Ian J constantly reminds me not all Spotters are douchebags. Even our good pal Josh Lesnick, although his comments on this particular subject were very snide and demeaning, is often a pretty good fellow. A lot of the new blood moving up to Keenspot will do a good job I'm sure of putting an end to the nastiness on Spot's side towards Spacers. It saddens me that some seem to "forget their roots" once they get there and fall into the thought patterns of douchbaggery that has, more than anything else, tainted Keenspot in the eyes of many in the comics industry.

Seriously though. There are a lot of decent Spotters who are not egomaniacs. I guess it's a sad reality that miserable pricks get more attention paid to them than well behaved, quiet people who just mind their own business.

Heck, why do you think so many people pay attention to ol' Uncle Ghastly here? Because I'm Space's equivalent of a miserable prick...

... well, okay, maybe that's Van Douchebag, but I'm pretty close.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:17 pm

pockybot wrote:Honestly, if being independant and successful in some way is truly your aim, or if you are truly serious...not beign affiliated with any free webcomic hosting would be a start.

Having talked with a number of people in the print and entertainment industries during my tours of duty at conventions they have almost each to a man (or woman as the case may be) said that you will get much more interest and consideration if you become a success independently rather than as part of a community because then those in the print and entertainment industries know you are a viable entity on your own merits and arn't simply riding on the strengths and talents of your collective.

That struck me as a little cold. It's like "Yeah, you do all the hard work to make yourself a success and then we'll swoop in to exploit you". But then again that's the way the entertainment industry has always worked. The music industry works that way I know that from experience. Despite the popularized romantic vision the music industry has no interest in discovering and nurtutring the next great talent. They'll either manufacture their own almost like an assembly line product or they'll wait for an independent to attain a certain level of success on their own and then swoop in and try to take the credit for "discovering" them.

That's why I always cackle with glee whenever I see independent successes like Homestar Runner gain a lot of industry attention and turn around and say to their offers "No thanks. It's okay, we're happy doing it on our own and being 100% in charge of the creative direction of our work and enjoying 100% of the profits."

Xmung · Post by **Xmung** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:33 pm

i don't see a need to change the name - if it confuses a few newbies and rankles a few spots... so be it!

to be honest i haven't ploughed thru the 6 preceding pages so i don't know if any gems have been offered up. gotta say i wouldn't be keen on inkspace as it goes against the whole electronic nature of webcomics (although mine are B&W inked, they sure aren't lettered or colored with ink, some vector comics don't use ink at all, some b&w comics are pencil only, yadda yadda).
but if it must be so, then i guess we should have a votey thing. i have no suggestions for a name myself...

Pockybot · Post by **Pockybot** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:34 pm

Ghastly wrote: That's why I always cackle with glee whenever I see independent successes like Homestar Runner gain a lot of industry attention and turn around and say to their offers "No thanks. It's okay, we're happy doing it on our own and being 100% in charge of the creative direction of our work and enjoying 100% of the profits."

Well, HomeStar got to collaborate with one of my fave bands(they might be giants) so that's pretty damn cool...that and they have plushes and figures. Sites like that , Red Vs Blue, Happy Tree Friends, etc have definately gotten pretty big.

Coyotzin · Post by **Coyotzin** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:36 pm

I have not had any experience with Spotters demeaning Spacers, but that's more attributable to the fact that I'm not very active in the communities (something I'm trying to change now), so I have no real opinion on any ulterior motive for the name change.

However, I will join the crowd who thinks it's a bad idea, perfectly aware that it's just an opinion that may not have any bearing on the final decision.

Given that there are many, many more Space comics than Spot ones, it is more likely that accidental Space readers will stumble onto KeenSpot than the other way around. People not aware of webcomics may be introduced to them through a friend who's starting his own at Space. Each SPacer brings with him a network of contacts that he brings to webcomics. For example, when I started my webcomic, I tapped into my network of friends and pimped in RPG forums; I'm listed in ENWorld and Gamewyrd, which have different audiences than purely comic-oriented sites, and I'm just one person; there are many others whose comic caters to different markets and become listed in the sites of the interests they cater to, and thus they bring in new blood.

From the operational side, it's going to be meaningless to change the name if the address doesn't change, and changing the address will create a logistical nightmare for 5K+ artists and generate a lot of error traffic at Keen's servers, who will either have to create redirections to the new addresses or simply leave the Spacers out to dry and rebuild their referrers.

As for the employee/customer divide... that's just bull and shows the shortsightedness of whoever said it first. In any business, the customer has greater weight than the employee. Semantics aside, I will agree with Ghastly in the quality of comics found on both sites. Titles like FAUB kick the ass of most of the Spotters, blindfolded and handcuffed, and the on-site attitude of Spotters is no different from that of the average Spacer.

However, if a name change is imminent, I will list a few ideas:

KeenWorks
KeenTemps
KeenEdge

(remember, the part we should keep is "Keen", not "Space"; "Space" is cute for the astronaut metaphors, but the business' name is Keen<whatever> and, by preserving the "Keen" part, we avoid being alienated by the Spotters who would want us to be shoved into the basement of Keen.)

Bekka · Post by **Bekka** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:27 pm

1) Your comic looks AWESOME

2) I am afraid that the Keen part of the name is what they don't want us to keep, since the whole thing is motivated by their desire to be completely differentiated from us (people bugging them at conventions about what the difference is and the like, if I understand).

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:35 pm

From what I've heard there were a few incidents at the recent big San Diego Comics Con where people came up to the KeenSpot booth to make enquiries about KeenSpace comics and artists and that appearently irked some of the Spot artists. So yes, it is highly unlikely that it is the SP in KeenSPace that they're upset about. They want us out of Keen (except, of course, when they need our pageviews to promote their work and numbers to inflate Keen's image as a comics empire).

Coyotzin · Post by **Coyotzin** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:53 pm

Ghastly wrote:From what I've heard there were a few incidents at the recent big San Diego Comics Con where people came up to the KeenSpot booth to make enquiries about KeenSpace comics and artists and that appearently irked some of the Spot artists. So yes, it is highly unlikely that it is the SP in KeenSPace that they're upset about. They want us out of Keen (except, of course, when they need our pageviews to promote their work and numbers to inflate Keen's image as a comics empire).

Aha... well, they need a reality check and some courses in basic marketing and salesmanship. I have worked at a booth in RPG conventions and when someone comes up and asks for an author or a book not covered by your booth, you don't get prissy; you say "well, no; he doesn't work with us/we didn't print that book... but here, check this out, it's tons better!"

They could have milked the mistake to gain new readers, but that's ego for you...

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:59 pm

Oh, god, anything but TeenSpace...

Vorticus · Post by **Vorticus** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:39 pm

mcDuffies wrote:Oh, god, anything but TeenSpace...

SpearsSpace?
BackStreetSpace?

Executor_Arthas · Post by **Executor_Arthas** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:04 pm

I can't wait to get into phase two of my plan, and finally just tell Chris where to go in the unpolitest way possible, because even if he started off with good intentions, he turned into a power monging dumbass, who knows nothing about good buisness, and I hope that he has all of the Keenspot artists just up and leave on him, only leaving him with Space. That, or just having Moth around to piss him off'd be good too. Hell, I'd PAY to see all of the Spot comics just up and go independant, along with most of the Keenspace comics, just to have Burstnet take their advertising elsewhere. And man, is my first sentance a long ass run on one...