Penny Arcade For Terrorists?

[Liriel]

Ayiyiyi~... please stop... I've relived that day far too often... please.... really.

~Liriel

[RadPal]

Ayiyiyi~... please stop... I've relived that day far too often... please.... really.

Apologies, didn't mean to re-open any wounds or anything. The detailed description was just meant to put emphasis on my point.

[Noise Monkey]

Though the second one about the beheadings, I just don't find that funny. I understand it's all in an attempt at fun and humor, but seriously. Two innocents were kidnapped and murdered in a gruesome way by masked terrorists, videotaped, and shown to the world (and their families). That one was just a tad inappropriate.

Inappropriate or not, we'll see something similar on a t-shirt in Hot Topic within a year. Hooray for a cold and unfeeling marketplace.

[Melody]

When I first heard about the attacks, the word "overreaction" came to my mind. I wanted to converse about that with people, but at the time they were very sensitive, it kept them a bit too far from logic, in my opinion. In fact, I think Bush knowingly used this to his advantage. People were afraid of saying anything other than "that is so sad," for fear of being taken as someone mean.

[TheGoobla]

I heard that in it, he argues that Bush is a bad president because he read a book to school children for seven minutes after he was told of the attack on the towers. I do not see the logic Moore uses, especially since I would have done the same thing as Bush in that situation.

Well, I think the problem here is that... well, he's the president. If he hears the country just got attacked, he's supposed to get his ass in gear! But instead... he sits there for several minutes more... completely terrified and dumbstruck.

So you would not be terrified and dumbstruck?

I never said that. I explicitly said something along the lines of I can't expect any moral person to NOT be horrified and dumbstruck. I was expounding upon the contemptable display of character and leadership.

Besides, the debacle in question is being horribly over-simplified.

Here's a far better breakdown of the situation.

[Melody]

I looked at the video. It is a simplification. Bush did not "just sit there." He acted on a decision to stay and continue listening to the children reading. For a third time, I would have done the same thing.

[KittyKatBlack]

I dunno. I found the first one kinda funny.

The second I could see the humor in, and from a purely unbiased comic perspective it would be funny. But comedy and morality have never gone well together. I live in the US, and the events which spawned both comics make me upset as well. But I'm the type of person that uses humor to deal with the trageties of life, and I think that's what the comics were ment to convey, it's not so much making fun of a serious situation, it's just trying to soften the hard truth of reality, which isn't really a bad thing. People make comics about the US and how horrible our goverment is all the time, and I'm sure it happens in and to other places too. Bad things happen, and you can't do anything about them sometimes other than just live through it. But no matter what the situation, someone, somewhere can probably find something humorous about it. Not so much to be cruel and uncaring, but just to try and break up the depression and anguish the actual event has caused.

[JexKerome]

Grabmygoblin's only making around minimum wage if he's taking $200 home for a 40 hour week's work. No need to shred him.

Hey, it's pure unalduterated envy! He's a wet-behind-the-ears kid making as much as ME, an electronics engineer with a title in his hand! And I work more hours than him for the same pay, to boot...


Which means he actually MAKES MORE than me!!!!

Okay, claw-time is over!!! Where's my shotgun?!

My client just hired fresh off-the-shelf electrical engineers at $50k apiece, plus overtime for hours over 40 in a week. They have less experience than you, and make your weekly salary by lunchtime on Monday. You really aught to swim that river and visit St. Louis.

I don't need to swim the Rio Bravo (why you americans call it Rio Grande is an enigma to me) to get to St. Louis; I have a passport AND the "laser" visa; what I need now are just three things:

1. Some cash to get a permit to exceed my visa limit (25 miles) and to move around since I don't own a car;
2. A way to sneak my shotgun into the U.S.A. (since guns are illegal in Mexico, I cannot carry it openly into the border crossing; Homeland Security would just arrest me, take my visa, burn it before my eyes and hand me to the mexican police); and
3. The address to grabmygoblin's house, seeing as it is that I already have yours, Ryan, with maps included.

So I guess I'll put a Paypal button in my site saying "donate so I can do in all those americans that make more than me!", and hope for the best.


And as far as Mr. George Bush and Michael Moore go: I'm watching Farenheit 9/11, and I hope you americans get off your butt and vote Bush out of office come November; you have to realize that stunts like the one you guys pulled last presidential election not only affect you, but the rest of us as well!

[RPin]

Well, in my humble defense of bCx, we've just had to put up with the antics longer is all (maybe it'll get to you all here, or maaaaaybe it won't, don't matter to me)... and frankly we're all a bit edgy and hostile over there, because well it IS a Top 100 List so we ALL think the other person sucks .

But I'm fine with that too! I'm happy to see that Cory can take criticism in such a friendly manner. We head experiences with people... (how should I put it?...) ...more hostile than him. If he's going to use the advices, it's up to him, in the end.

[McDuffies]

Hm, as for Moor/Bush issue, I just watched "Bowling for columbine" recently, and I think it's great as film as well as analyse of USA's problems. So I guess I'll find my way to "Farenheit" too.
I mean, seriously, you got Charlton Heston claiming that all problems are derived from american history and that nothing can be done about it, and you have Michael Moore claiming that problems are within us (actually, within US citizents), that they're objective, and that sometimng actually can be done about it. Now who's the real patriot there?
And Bush? Well, I've seen a lot of cheeting on elections in my life and... he did not bacome president legaly. What happened there was one standard routine that Milosevic's clique pulled when they needeed to "win" elections.

[Melody]

Haha. I do not like Bush, either. I just do not want to see anyone getting a bad reputation from lies. If he is not re-elected to office, I want it to be because people decided so based upon truths.

[TheGoobla]

I looked at the video. It is a simplification. Bush did not "just sit there." He acted on a decision to stay and continue listening to the children reading. For a third time, I would have done the same thing.

Alright. Fine. Maybe you'd have done the same thing. And maybe that's why I hope you never run for office. BUt did you actually read the whole page?

>>> At 9:03 AM on 11 September 2001, the second airplane hit the South Tower of the World Trade Center. President Bush was in Florida, at the Emma T. Booker Elementary School, listening to children read. Chief of Staff Andrew Card came over and whispered in Bush's ear, "A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack."

What did the Commander in Chief do? Nothing. He sat there. He sat for well over 5 minutes, doing nothing while 3,000 people were dying and the attacks were still in progress.

Not only did the leader of the free world sit as his country was attacked, the Secret Service also did nothing. Bush was appearing in public at a previously announced photo-op. He was a sitting duck. The attacks were ongoing at that point (planes had yet to hit the Pentagon or the field in Pennsylvania), and nobody knew how much more destruction was going to happen. Were there two, three, four, eight more planes hijacked and on their way to crash into prominent buildings? Was one headed for the school, where anyone who checked the President's public itinerary would know he was located? Were other terrorists planning to detonate dirty nukes? Were they going to release anthrax or smallpox or sarin? Was an assassination squad going to burst into the school and get Bush? Was a suicide bomber going to ram a truck full of explosives into that classroom?

During the midst of the attacks, any of these things could've happened. Yet there sits Bush, seemingly unconcerned. His Chief of Staff likewise doesn't think that America in flames warrants the President's immediate attention. And the Secret Service utterly fails to do its job by grabbing the President of the United States and getting him to safety. It's truly inexplicable.

And it's something the administration isn't too eager to trumpet. They haven't released footage of the President's (non)actions during this historic moment of American history. Until now, the only available footage had been a little film put together by Booker Elementary. [See it here.] The problem is, there's a jump edit in the footage: From the time Card whispers to Bush until the end of the scene in the classroom, only 2 minutes and 10 seconds elapse.

But this new, fuller footage shows Bush sitting for a full five minutes after he'd been told that "America is under attack."

He declined to take action even longer than this, but unfortunately this footage ends before he leaves the classroom. Thanks to an amazing article by Allan Wood and Paul Thompson, we know what happened after the footage suddenly cuts off:

The only source to describe what happened next is Fighting Back by Bill Sammon. Publishers Weekly described Sammon's book as an "inside account of the Bush administration's reaction to 9-11 [and] a breathless, highly complimentary portrait of the president [showing] the great merit and unwavering moral vision of his inner circle." [Publisher's Weekly, 10/15/02] Sammon's conservative perspective makes his account of Bush's behavior at the end of the photo-op all the more surprising. Bush is described as smiling and chatting with the children "as if he didn't have a care in the world" and "in the most relaxed manner imaginable." White House aide Gordon Johndroe, then came in as he usually does at the end of press conferences, and said, "Thank you, press. If you could step out the door we came in, please." A reporter then asked, "Mr. President, are you aware of the reports of the plane crash in New York? Is there anything...", But Bush interrupted, and no doubt recalling his order, "DON'T SAY ANYTHING YET," Bush responded, "I'll talk about it later." But still the president did not leave. "He stepped forward and shook hands with [classroom teacher] Daniels, slipping his left hand behind her in another photo-op pose. He was taking his good old time. ... Bush lingered until the press was gone." [Fighting Back: The War on Terrorism - From Inside the Bush White House, by Bill Sammon, 10/02, p. 90]

For a detailed portrait of what Bush did and didn't do on 9/11, you can do no better than to read this article here. It is based completely on reports from mainstream media and statements from government officials.

Apologists claim that Bush didn't leave simply because he didn't want to interrupt and upset the children, but this falls apart for several reasons:

1) America is being attacked, thousands are dying, and Bush doesn't know if we're facing nuclear, biological, or chemical attacks, as well. Couldn't he just say, "Excuse me, kids, I need to take care of something. It's part of being President, y'understand. I'll be back as soon as I can."

2) At the moment Card told Bush about the second plane, the children weren't reading to Bush. They had finished reading words from an easel and were reaching under their chairs for a book when Card whispered to Bush. Another 30 seconds would elapse before they started reading again. This pause was a perfect time for Bush to politely excuse himself.

3) By staying, he not only endangered his own life, but the lives of all of those children. Wouldn't it be better to risk upsetting them than to risk letting them die in a terror attack?

4) Even if Bush was afraid of hurting the kiddies' feelings, what about the Secret Service? Have they been trained not to attempt to save the President's life if it might bother some schoolchildren?

5) What about Chief of Staff Andrew Card, White House Spokesperson Ari Fleischer, and other officials who were in that classroom? Didn't they feel that a 21st-century Pearl Harbor and a potential attack on the President himself were worth some sort of action?

6) Finally, and most damningly, this excuse doesn't explain why Bush continued to mill around the classroom for several minutes after the children had finished reading.

[Melody]

No, I did not. Do they point out something I can miss from watching the video?

Socrates was not liked by a lot of people during his time because he would lead people to destroy their own beliefs using their own logic, but he did not offer or was unable to offer any replacement for those beliefs.

So, what would you or a president better than Bush have done in his place, specifically?

I would do what he did, not because I would be stumped, but because I always display a semblance of calm. It helps keep me calm and people around me relax a little when I laugh after, say, a chemistry experiment lights on fire, and I robotically clutch my head and say, "Oh no. A fire." A comic to illustrate this: http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v25 ... y_calm.png
The problem with Bush's scenario is that he could have been stumped. But, I cannot judge from the video whether or not he was and I do not see why or how people are judging. Supposedly Moore shows a seven-minute video. Maybe I could judge from that.

--edit--
I noticed this:

3) By staying, he not only endangered his own life, but the lives of all of those children. Wouldn't it be better to risk upsetting them than to risk letting them die in a terror attack?

That does not make sense. Look at it from the perspective of a terrorist. What would they do? Crash a plane into the school? In that case, the president leaving the building would change nothing. Would they use explosives? Terrorists would have detonated them right after the president had entered the building. And if they had not, they are terrorists--whether or not the president was inside (for example, if the president was told of the WTC attacks before arriving at the school and decided not to go) would have changed nothing.

[TheGoobla]

So, what would you or a president better than Bush have done in his place, specifically?

I think I, or a better leader, would have left. Yep.

I would do what he did, not because I would be stumped, but because I always display a semblance of calm. It helps keep me calm and people around me relax a little when I laugh after, say, a chemistry experiment lights on fire, and I robotically clutch my head and say, "Oh no. A fire." A comic to illustrate this: http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v25 ... y_calm.png

That's a very creepy comic. Besides, nothing says the president couldn't have displayed a semblance of calm if he had left.

The problem with Bush's scenario is that he could have been stumped.

The other problem here is that the secret service was right there.

--edit--
I noticed this:

3) By staying, he not only endangered his own life, but the lives of all of those children. Wouldn't it be better to risk upsetting them than to risk letting them die in a terror attack?

That does not make sense. Look at it from the perspective of a terrorist. What would they do? Crash a plane into the school? In that case, the president leaving the building would change nothing. Would they use explosives? Terrorists would have detonated them right after the president had entered the building. And if they had not, they are terrorists--whether or not the president was inside (for example, if the president was told of the WTC attacks before arriving at the school and decided not to go) would have changed nothing.

Yeah, okay. So maybe the kids were in danger either way. But that still doesn't explain the president -- and the secret service, just standing there and ignoring the threat. The whole scenario strikes me as irresponsible.

Though the thing to recognize is that we both dislike Bush. Whether or not we disagree on what action was appropriate at the time is besides the point. The important thing here is that we're both moderately sane people.

* Hugs *

[Melody]

So, what would you or a president better than Bush have done in his place, specifically?

I think I, or a better leader, would have left. Yep.

=b Why would you leave? Sure, leaving sounds better than staying, but what logic supports leaving?

I really am that calm in those types of situations. I must be insane. Yeah, I am.

[TheBladeRoden2]

Well, it sure doesn't make much sense and therefore isn't funny, so it's just like the regular Penny Arcade! Good job!

[ShineDog]

but PA is funny.

its just niche, and you have to read the front page for it to make sense.

[TheGoobla]

its just niche, and you have to read the front page for it to make sense.

Just like we had to read the explanation to this strip to get it!

[Garasade]

It is callous to even suggest that any of mirth can be given at the subject of a heaving, sniffing, traumatized man's head being cut off by savages. Maybe people have become desensitized by all the violence on TV or something, which is a shame, given that brand of violence is fake violence. As long as this does not affect them personally, they would not give crap about it unless exploited for their own levity.

As for Fahrenheit 9/11, like any other subject Mr. Moore makes his opinion known, is just conjecture, and very fragmented in that there are a lot of information presented in a hectic pace without making anything significant out of the deluge. Just the right dose amount of description and ambiguity for a perfect propaganda.

[Pockybot]

Just saw Fahrenheit 9/11...no matter where you stand on Mopore or politics, when you strip away all the hype...there is no denying the administration lied to the American public and world, went in and killed a lot of innocents, and continues to let young americans die everyday for absolutely nothing. To everyone being cynical about Moore, they are missing the whole point. May this film help upseat this very bad stain on American history.

But I'm fine with that too! I'm happy to see that Cory can take criticism in such a friendly manner. We head experiences with people... (how should I put it?...) ...more hostile than him. If he's going to use the advices, it's up to him, in the end.

If one cannot grow or evolve, and ignore any and all criticisms and advice, one will til the soil of complacency.

I can't really understand Pockybot's comic strip. Are they supposed to be in some sort of video game or virtual reality or something? Is it supposed to be a gamer strip that's making references to something I'm not familiar with? Or what? And what's so cyberpunk about it (unless I've not gotten far enough in the archives that I've yet to see the 'real world' - a more than likely thing)?

I is confuuuuuuzzed!

?~AoD

Just go through the entire archives...all the answers(and a recipe for chip dip) are in there...well maybe not the chip dip.