A Convenience or an Outrage?

Noise Monkey · Post by **Noise Monkey** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:27 am

Mr.Bob wrote:
KittyKatBlack wrote:*comic*

*sniffile*

Evil! Evil!!!!

I like it.

Okie · Post by **Okie** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:07 pm

There are webcomic rippers, and there are webcomic list programs.

If you want to defeat rippers, support lists?

http://evoluted.net/webcomics/
Latest Webcomics Program
The latest webcomics is a small program which monitors the updates to various web comic sites. The program currently monitors 144 webcomics.

It connects to the server to check if any comics have been updated, if any are found it displays a message informing you.

What it does, is it sits in your taskbar when you turn on your computer. If you click on it, a list of all the the comics that updated today show up. If you click on a Name, it loads the comic's website.

The list site has a form you can fill out if you want to request a comic be included. http://evoluted.net/webcomics/about.php#submit

Mr Ekshin · Post by **Mr Ekshin** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:33 pm

Mr.Bob wrote:
Mr Ekshin wrote:I e-mailed the author. Might want to send him more e-mail you all?

He's: andyi@world.std.com

Let him know what you think.
I did.
And by doing so, I think that I may have just singlehandedly destroyed our cause by sending him an incorent E-mail composed entirely in caps, and comprised of leet, bad spelling, varying combinations of exclamation marks and 1s and a score of inane insults principally concerning his chosen sexual orientation.

I'm sorry.

I... I couldn't help myself...

(You know I'm joking!)

I caught myself halfway through my e-mail and realized that I REALLY wanted him to read it. I got all seriousified and didn't use any expletives. I used logic to drive my point home, rather than a mallet, as I would have preferred. I left my name, but said I wouldn't tell him my comic name because I didn't want him as an audience.

I feel surprisingly strongly against the practice of comic ripping. I didn't previously expect that I would care, but I guess I do.

Post by **Mercury Hat** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:49 pm

My fellow 'Spacers, he has heard our cries: http://spiny.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=164

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:28 pm

My thoughts about it can be found on that thread too.

Taiwanimation · Post by **Taiwanimation** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:04 pm

Rather than hotlink, people ought to use the IFRAME tag. Then again, would it cause more havoc than it would solve?

<iframe width=400 height=400 src="http://www.firstcultural.com">no text</iframe>

Xmung · Post by **Xmung** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:12 pm

faub wrote:How is this different than surfing Keenspace with an ad blocker? That's stealing from Keenspace too. People do it because they believe ads invade their privacy. They didn't want to see that ad. Why is it there? The people running Keenspace have to deal with this fact.

for some reason my mac computer rarely displays keenspace banner ads in the browser... not sure why, i'm certainly not asking it to. one thing i'm glad it does though (again by accident rather than design) is completely bust those goddamn annoying e-bay pop-ups that i'm otherwise subjected to every time i browse the forum (or stats or most other keenspace comics) on my pc. does anybody ever follow the link of a pop-up? are they not the most useless most arrogant and annoying form of internet advertising? if it continues i will be looking into a blocker just so i can browse the forum in peace (relatively speaking).

huff pant huff wheeze gasp...

ok. ok. got that out of my system... i feel much better now...

Okie · Post by **Okie** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:29 pm

I like the Iframes, I've been playing with them. You can open dozens of webpages all at once on the same page, and you get most of the ads. Its free, and easy, just need to tweak the frame sizes.

Keenspace Ads do not show up and only 1 in 6 Keenspot Ads show up.

What's different about Keenads that prevent them from showing up in iframes?

Is there any difference between me visiting 15 websites of my own choosing, one at a time... and setting up a personal iframe page where I can open all 15 websites at the same time? Other than keenads not showing up (which I don't understand), are there drawbacks to iframes?

Terotrous · Post by **Terotrous** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:04 pm

Mr.Bob wrote:
KittyKatBlack wrote:*comic*

*sniffile*

That's what happens when you hit on a teacher.

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:10 pm

Okie wrote:I like the Iframes, I've been playing with them. You can open dozens of webpages all at once on the same page, and you get most of the ads. Its free, and easy, just need to tweak the frame sizes.

Keenspace Ads do not show up and only 1 in 6 Keenspot Ads show up.

What's different about Keenads that prevent them from showing up in iframes?

Is there any difference between me visiting 15 websites of my own choosing, one at a time... and setting up a personal iframe page where I can open all 15 websites at the same time? Other than keenads not showing up (which I don't understand), are there drawbacks to iframes?

We want the source of your IFrame page. So post it!

Gage Kronos · Post by **Gage Kronos** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:58 pm

I'm not sure how other people got into web comics in the first place, but my interest started with 8-Bit Theater, and then one day I decided to follow a link to another comic (Once Upon A Table...a Keenspace one), and from there found the plethora of things at Keenspace/Keenspot to keep me occupied. I'm certain I'm not the only one that's found several comics that they enjoy just by following the intricate web of links located on the pages of each comic.

Therefore, this persons arguement about this program getting people interested in web comics could not be any more false, in my view. Someone would have to already be interested in web comics to begin with to find this thing, and at that point I imagine that the person would also already know where to go to find more comics. It's not hard to create a separate folder for all of your web comic bookmarks in IE...I doubt it would be that much harder in other browsers as well.

Okie · Post by **Okie** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:04 pm

We want the source of your IFrame page. So post it!

WARNING! This Source Code contains Nudity.
<html>
<body>

<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#B05E39" link="#B05E39" vlink="#B05E39" alink="#B05E39">
<center>

<iframe width=800 height=735 src="http://roughies.keenspace.com/index.html" name="Roughies"></iframe>
<iframe width=800 height=1055 src="http://loxieandzoot.keenspace.com" name="Loxie and Zoot"></iframe>
<iframe width=800 height=520 src="http://www.meninhats.com" name="Men in Hats"></iframe>
<iframe width=1000 height=850 src="http://icjb.keenspace.com/" name="icjb"></iframe>
<iframe width=800 height=650 src="http://www.catandgirl.com/" name="Cat and Girl"></iframe>
<iframe width=800 height=575 src="http://www.buttercupfestival.com/" name="Buttercup Festival"></iframe>

</center>
<html>
<body>

Try it out for yourself, and then post whether you think there's anything wrong with it.

Phact0rri · Post by **Phact0rri** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:54 pm

well I'd not be so mad if they linked to the pages, or actually produced the pages. but we got tabbed browsing and we can launch a whole series of webcomics in one window.. why do people need to pay for it.

my biggest concern really isn't people paying some service to sneak and copy my work in pseudo browser its that the ads that keenspace runs to support this great service are being tossed aside and someone's stealing bandwidth.

PinDummy · Post by **PinDummy** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:06 am

Okie wrote:What's different about Keenads that prevent them from showing up in iframes?

Is there any difference between me visiting 15 websites of my own choosing, one at a time... and setting up a personal iframe page where I can open all 15 websites at the same time? Other than keenads not showing up (which I don't understand), are there drawbacks to iframes?

That IS weird. Back when I tried iframes with my design, they would show up correctly on IE, but wouldn't render at all on other browsers.

My guess at the time was that a html 4.0 bug didn't allow iframes and position:"absolute" to render properly. I don't know if it's actually connected to the ad problem.

Rkolter · Post by **Rkolter** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:11 am

Well, I changed my mind about the program and posted my own response to his thread:

-----
I've got a different take on your software.

The fact that most webcomic authors offer their works up for free viewing does not mean that they have terminated their copyrights. The people who are saying that your software is doing nothing illegal are, frankly, wrong. It is illegal to download copywritten intellectual property without the consent of the author.

What you are missing is this - a webcomic is not just the comic strip. It is the accumulation of the comic strip, available archives, links the authors might want to make available to their readers, forums, tagboards, etcetera. Webcomic authors produce a website that their comic comes from - it's part of the comic itself.

What you are doing is: selling a medium that displays copywritten material without the authors' permission. Your reasons may be noble, and you may have rationalizations for what you are doing. But in the end, you're no better than a newspaper that decides to print a comic it hasn't paid for or gotten permission to print. Your program illegally reprints copywritten information.

To put it in the simplest possible terms: Just because the program is a good idea and decently programmed and possibly an interesting new method of displaying webcomics, does not give you the authority to copy content off other peoples' websites and display it in your own format without first securing the permission of the content author.

If you were to change to asking permission first, you would get a huge positive feedback and kill the illegal aspects of what you're doing. It would be a win-win for everyone.

Ryan Kolter
http://www.reasonedcognition.com

YarpsDat · Post by **YarpsDat** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:38 am

Well my opinion is quite simple:
-they use Keenspace bandwidth, not giving ad revenue in exhange. sentence: extermination, possibly with family and pets.
-they charge for access to ours content. sentence: extermination
-they present the comics without the other materials it's supposed to come with. sentence: extermination
-making Kisai busy. sentence: extremly painfull extermination.
I AM THE LAW!
Boy, I hope that program has at least 4 creators.

I worked hard to design my website to look the best (<< >> << umm, let's say I like simple pages), I optymized it for bandwidth usage (so it doesn't take long to download), and I have a bunch of features, including the ULTIMATE CALENDAR, if someone presents my comics on some crappage with just next-prev links... I think that counts as "altering it without my permission"

Seriously though, I'm not realy in favour of extermination, just cease and desist or whatever the procedure is.

KittyKatBlack wrote:It's not so much as I have a problem with it being taken and reposted somewhere else. It's the fact that someone else is charging money for my content. It would be like if you were having a yard sale, and giving away stuff for free, and some random guy suddenly started standing at your front gate and started to charge admission to your yard. Wouldn't you be a little pissed off about that?

I'd start sharpening my knife

BTW, do you have any objections to me reposting that bit in their forum?

BTW, nice work in that other forum RPin.

And xmung, I get no popups from browsing this forum, either one of us is weird or I don't know what...
Scan your box for adware.

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:16 am

Well... Everyone seems to be in a mood to Lynch. In case you were wondering, we're not the only people here discussing comictastic. The other forums and newgroups are buzzing with this news too.

Initially I wasn't happy about the program (hence me posting it here), but after a bit of thinking, I'm inclined to take a different line to things...

I can actually see this program working for pay-sites like Modern Tales/Graphic Smash if they work together with the companies properly. After all, the main complaint people have about pay-sites is that they don't actually OWN anything after they suscribe (as opposed to paying for a printed book). This might be just the thing that tips the balance for pay.

For free comics, however, I think this program presents a threat in terms of bandwidth since free-sites are heavily dependent on advertising to recoup their hosting costs. Therefore, yes. very bad. And yes, they should stop if this is the case.

You do realise however, that there is no way to stop them cold, do you? The moment you shut down a Napster, a new Kazaa springs up. If there is a demand for something there's bound to be someone with the skill out there to cash in on that demand. There will always be a work around for whatever measure we may put up to stop them. We'd end up spending more time trying to fight them then doing comics.

The best we can do is find a compromise. It's probably too late to say this, seeing a number of us that have already headed for their forums, but to others who are planning to do so: if you're going to communicate with the creator of that program, please do so as a rational human being, and not as an incoherent flamer.

Also, pissing a person off is more likely to make them continue just to spite us. So everyone be careful with their words, please.

All that said, Pin, nice job over on the other forum, you sounded quite impressive (Although it's Ryan Kolter, not Richard

) So far the Keenspacers (John, Ryan and etc.) have sounded quite rational, let's keep it that way.

YarpsDat · Post by **YarpsDat** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:24 am

Phalanx wrote:I can actually see this program working for pay-sites like Modern Tales/Graphic Smash if they work together with the companies properly.

Oh no! You were supposed to be our agent in, and now you've given in to thir logic, and betray us?

Phalanx wrote: You do realise however, that there is no way to stop them cold, do you?

At least this guys are suable, and lockable in prison. ^^

Phalanx wrote: incoherent flamer.

I heard I'm quite good at beeing coherent flamer, can I go?

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:51 am

Heh, thanks, Ping and Yarps. I felt sorry for bringing the crack issue up in the first place, even though it would be nice to see the irony of it.

I'm glad I didn't post on his forum yesterday, or the outcome might have been different. When I first checked this thread, I had a few beers (and by few I mean a lot) after class with some friends (everytime I post as PinDummy is because I'm outside of my computer). That was a lesson I should've learn from Ghastly

Phalanx wrote:You do realise however, that there is no way to stop them cold, do you? The moment you shut down a Napster, a new Kazaa springs up. If there is a demand for something there's bound to be someone with the skill out there to cash in on that demand. There will always be a work around for whatever measure we may put up to stop them. We'd end up spending more time trying to fight them then doing comics.

I don't know... Please forbid me if a flame war starts out from what I'll say, but I do not believe those guys acted in good will as they want us to believe. They are no lame hacks, they knew what they were doing and the consequences of it. I mean:

lars wrote:Other comic viewers already exist -- Comictastic is merely the best of its class.

And quite a job it does indeed, defeating the system people put so many work and money to build.

He knows what he's doing, and he's now merely trying to save his ass by what can even be seen as blackmail (Either you can spend your time and money fighting people like me and my users, or you can embrace what I believe to be the future of webcomics.).

I do believe that technology can be used for good, and I support the guys who are trying to come up with a way to benefit both them and him. But frankly speaking, that wouldn't be a long term solution, as after a few months (an year, at best) yet another Comictastic would appear.

I share Joey Manley's vision on this:

joeymanley wrote:I think the best answer is education. We have to make people understand that it's a bad thing to steal, and that just because they CAN doesn't mean it's right. Sounds lame, I know, but ... well, okay, I'm lame.

We happen to live on sad times where everyone finds a way to take advantage on another. Believe me, I feel like an hypocrite, as I type this listening to mp3 download from Kazaa. But I really have the feeling, the user of such programs just doesn't know how much it damages the comics they read.

If there's anything in this that differs from Kazaa is the fact that downloading Madonna ("What the fuck do you think you're doing?") music won't make her quit her job as a musician. Comic rippers are far more potentially dangerous, as comic artists are far more down to ground than pop-stars. Not only that, but we don't force anyone to pay for a CD with 13 tracks of crap just for one song we like. All of our content is in the net for free.

Maybe the average reader gets the impression that, because it's free, it's free to be viewed anyway they like. Maybe the readers just don't know what adviews and bandwidth costs are. And the saddest part is, the readers who don't use comic rippers, who genuinely support our comics, they are the ones who really suffer, as the anti-grabbing system gets more uptight. Right now people using Norton Firewall already have problems with our KS comics. Whatever comes next, it's going to prejudice them.

I truly can see a future where the only comics to survive are ones with closed content, if this kind of mindset keeps growing.

Phalanx wrote:(Although it's Ryan Kolter, not Richard )

I keep taking that R for a Richard, dammit! Even when I recommend RC to my friends!

Ryan...Ryan... Ryan...

Okie · Post by **Okie** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:05 pm

heehee, "Comicjacking".