Looking for some critiques

Bluebug · Post by **Bluebug** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:52 am

Hello all,

My comic is now into it's fifth chapter, and will (tentatively) be in color from now on. Thought it was high time for me to ask for another critique. So critique away. You'll notice that there's a link to a recaps section on the main page, so you can just critique the general storyline and the art if you so wish.

Apart from standard critiquing, I'm interested to hear about what turns people off from the comic at first glance (ie. art style, layout, old crappy art in first chapter ...)

Thanks in advance!

PS. *Minor shameless plug* If you decide to vote for me in BuzzComix there's a nice art treat waiting for you. I spent over three hours on it ... so I'm hoping a few people will actually look at it.

http://km.keenspace.com

Taiwanimation · Post by **Taiwanimation** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:52 am

Turnoffs...

The daily pages have way too much stuff on them, so much that I can't even see the top of the comic on the first screen at 1024x768. Do you really need that many banners and topsite vote buttons?

The first/next/previous/today buttons are not intuitive at all.

----------------

Good...

The art is of good quality even in the start. If you really want to you can make a notice in the form of a text for the first page saying how the comic starts out in black and white, or that the art in ch1 isnt as good.

CodeGuy · Post by **CodeGuy** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:38 am

I agree with everything that Taiwanimation said. The buttons are confusing and the comic is lost in the mess. You're running a webcomic site. The most important thing is the webcomic. If people have to search to find it, that's a huge problem. If you put the title in your sidebar and move all the banners and other stuff around, you can put your comic right under the advertisement tag at the top. This would be massively more appealing.

Another problem is your page layout. It's super crowded. You're setting up the characters with just enough whitespace to look good all by themselves, then filling all that empty space with text. This makes things very crowded and hard to follow. It also violates the rule that characters should not have text bubbles (or even the arrows from text bubbles) in between them. It's like a barrier between the characters.

Take this comic:

http://km.keenspace.com/d/20040112.html

In the first panel, the character has text in front of him. That blocks his view of the character he's talking to. Sure, that guy is in another panel, and it's just text, but it still puts a visual wall between the two characters. You'd have been better off leaving a little more space at the top of the panel where you could put the text. It'll make things look likda empty until the text is put in, but the final product will look better.

KittyKatBlack · Post by **KittyKatBlack** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:28 pm

I agree with the first two opinions. When I first looked at your site, I didn't see a comic so I instinctively clicked 'archives' cause I figured your comic wasn't on the first page. Then I hit the ***big_calander*** that's TWO pages now I went to without seeing a comic. After I went back to the main page and clicked the 'quick archives' X button. Again site loaded up, no comic in view. I finally scrolled down and realized the comic was near the bottom of the page. I then started reading a bit, but didn't get to far into it cause something came up and I had to leave. Yeah I know I probably should have just scrolled down some on the first page, and I feel kinda stupid for not doing so, but all I'm saying is that I doubt I'm the first person to do this, and it got kinda frustrating. So yeah, make at least the top part of the comic visible to the viewer when the page first loads.

And yeah, the navigation buttons are totally confusing. I only knew which buttons did what because I'm used to webcomic layout and I knew what the normal layout is. You could try putting an arrow behind each of the little critters to at least give it more of a solid feel.

As for good points: (Since I don't want to sound like I'm just bashing the comic.) from what I saw the art style and coloring are good and you seem to have a solid idea of where you want the story to go. That's good. You also have a good varety of characters, so they all don't look similar. I think you have a good comic, but your layout definately needs to be re-thought out. The current layout makes it look like you're more concerned about how popular you are on Top 100 charts than you are about your comic. Not very good vibes, but that's just my opinion.

Bluebug · Post by **Bluebug** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:46 pm

Taiwanimation wrote:Turnoffs...

The daily pages have way too much stuff on them, so much that I can't even see the top of the comic on the first screen at 1024x768. Do you really need that many banners and topsite vote buttons?

The first/next/previous/today buttons are not intuitive at all.

Strange. I made the layout for 1024x768, but layouts always seem to look different on various computers, no matter how hard I try to make them compatible to all resolutions. Though I see your point about the clutter. The funny thing is, the major complaint I had about the last layout was that the voting/gb buttons were too small and impossible to find. I guess I overcompensated and made everything too blatantly "in your face" in this layout.

For the daily pages, would it help if I just made the vote buttons smaller and got rid of all the other buttons/text? I guess it would also help to know if people actually vote when they're reading through the comic (ie. at the daily pages), or do they just vote at the index page. If it's the latter, I would have no problem getting rid of the vote buttons on the daily pages. Any thoughts on reader voting habits?

It may seem that I'm horribly fixated on these top lists, but I do feel that the banners and vote buttons are necessary because that's how I attract most of my readers. Without them, I think the community would become rather stagnant. I went about half a year with my readership being next to none, so I'm a bit paranoid about the whole thing. That said, are the voting buttons bothersome in and of themselves (ie. is having voting buttons on the page annoying in itself?) or is it simply that the buttons are too distractingly huge?

As for the next/prev etc buttons. I was going to make them into animated gifs that lit up to show next/prev upon mouseover, but I couldn't make them work. So I gave up and just put the static images instead. I'll now make sure to modify the images and insert next/prev text under the image.

Good...

The art is of good quality even in the start. If you really want to you can make a notice in the form of a text for the first page saying how the comic starts out in black and white, or that the art in ch1 isnt as good.

Good idea.

Bluebug · Post by **Bluebug** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:54 pm

CodeGuy wrote:I agree with everything that Taiwanimation said. The buttons are confusing and the comic is lost in the mess. You're running a webcomic site. The most important thing is the webcomic. If people have to search to find it, that's a huge problem. If you put the title in your sidebar and move all the banners and other stuff around, you can put your comic right under the advertisement tag at the top. This would be massively more appealing.

I didn't realize people were having so much trouble finding the comic. Thanks for letting me know. I wish I'd asked for advice while I was working on the layout. Spent two weeks fiddling around with the thing.

Another problem is your page layout. It's super crowded. You're setting up the characters with just enough whitespace to look good all by themselves, then filling all that empty space with text. This makes things very crowded and hard to follow.

True. I've got to work on that. I have this terrible tendency to fill up every available space with text. My characters are much too verbose ... which of course doesn't actually mean they say anything

They just like to think they are.

So is there a recommended way I deal with the cluttered comic page layout? Other than making them talk less, I mean. Would it help if there were less panels on the page, or smaller text?

Bluebug · Post by **Bluebug** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:58 pm

KittyKatBlack wrote:Yeah I know I probably should have just scrolled down some on the first page, and I feel kinda stupid for not doing so, but all I'm saying is that I doubt I'm the first person to do this, and it got kinda frustrating. So yeah, make at least the top part of the comic visible to the viewer when the page first loads.

You're right. You're probably one of the many who've come to my site and left in frustration. I feel totally oblivious as to how frustrating my layout could be. Must go and work on it ...

As for good points: (Since I don't want to sound like I'm just bashing the comic.) from what I saw the art style and coloring are good and you seem to have a solid idea of where you want the story to go. That's good. You also have a good varety of characters, so they all don't look similar.

Good. I was starting to worry that my characters were starting to look too much alike. I think it's all the pointy ears and the lopsided bangs

CodeGuy · Post by **CodeGuy** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:12 pm

I think your text size is about right. Also, shrinking it wouldn't help much since there still wouldn't be much place to put it.

Bluebug · Post by **Bluebug** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:16 pm

Alrighty. I hate leaving things undone after I get critiques, so I've changed the layout.

Index page:
1) Got rid of the top image so now the comic page is nice and visible immediately. 2) Shrunk the voting buttons so there's more negative space and it doesn't look as busy as before (I hope). 3) Crunched the layout so everything's closer together and easier to find ... possibly making it look just as cluttered as before. It's a lose-lose situation, I swear.

Daily page:
1) Got rid of all unnecessary buttons. Phew.

Now the million dollar question: is the layout any better now?

And there were a few previous comments about the art. Thanks for tempering all that layout criticism with some kind thoughts about the art ... but now that the initial criticism of the layout is out of the way, give me your honest opinion about the art. As in, what can I improve (detail, anatomy, perspective, hair, eyes ...), you name it. If you can throw in some thoughts about the dialogue/storyline while you're at it, I will be ever grateful. I don't get much criticism from readers, since naturally they are a somewhat biased group of people (ie. they wouldn't be reading it if they hated it ... unless they possess masochistic tendencies of which I am unaware).

CodeGuy · Post by **CodeGuy** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:12 am

Massively better layout.

Myself, I might get rid of the navigation buttons above the pic (first, last, etc) and move the other things up there (archives, characters, etc) below the comic. Most people aren't going to press first or next or anything until they've already read the comic and scrolled down, in which case they'd use the ones on the bottom. But at this point, that's mainly my preference. I wouldn't fault you at all for leaving them if you like buttons at the top of the comic.

I also like the archives a lot better without all the extra stuff. Much more focused.

I didn't get much of a chance to read your archives today. I just read the first few and the last few. I'll read some more and try to give you some more comments in the next few days.

KittyKatBlack · Post by **KittyKatBlack** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:06 pm

150% Better!! Whew, this is SOOO much better than before. I think this layout is perfect for your site. The original layout seemed lopsided and very cumbersome. This one is much much much more streamlined. I'd go so far as to say professional looking even. I think you nailed it. Plus, the addition to the words below the little critter navigation is also much easier on the brain.

As for the art, you're lightyears ahead of me, if that counts for anything. (Not much, probably. -_-) Anyway, I like it. I haven't gotten around to reading the story, mainly cause I'm a gag-strip-a-day type of person, so I don't want to start reading it until I can devote some time to read the entire thing in one shot. Over all I think you have a good setup going and I'd stick with what you have. Nice work!

Bluebug · Post by **Bluebug** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:20 pm

CodeGuy wrote:Massively better layout. Myself, I might get rid of the navigation buttons above the pic (first, last, etc) and move the other things up there (archives, characters, etc) below the comic. Most people aren't going to press first or next or anything until they've already read the comic and scrolled down, in which case they'd use the ones on the bottom. But at this point, that's mainly my preference. I wouldn't fault you at all for leaving them if you like buttons at the top of the comic.

I also like the archives a lot better without all the extra stuff. Much more focused.

I didn't get much of a chance to read your archives today. I just read the first few and the last few. I'll read some more and try to give you some more comments in the next few days.

Thanks, CodeGuy. I just got an unhelpful comment on how the story is "cliched". I think I understand where the person was coming from, but without any specifics, I find a comment like that more aggravating than anything. So real critiques on the story would be massively helpful.

Bluebug · Post by **Bluebug** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:25 pm

KittyKatBlack wrote:150% Better!! Whew, this is SOOO much better than before.

As for the art, you're lightyears ahead of me, if that counts for anything. (Not much, probably. -_-) Anyway, I like it. I haven't gotten around to reading the story, mainly cause I'm a gag-strip-a-day type of person, so I don't want to start reading it until I can devote some time to read the entire thing in one shot. Over all I think you have a good setup going and I'd stick with what you have. Nice work!

Thanks, KittyKatBlack. Just checked out your site and you've got a pretty amazing layout yourself. Now I have an even better understanding of why my layout wreaked so much havoc. Yours is very streamlined, and I love that little metal "panelling" effect. Did you do that on Photoshop? In any case, you've got "cute" down pat. I want to take that splork home with me (in a baggie of course, in case it decides to suffocate me with its pink gooey cuteness).

CodeGuy · Post by **CodeGuy** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:16 pm

Well, I don't think I'm gonna read it after all. This isn't a comment on your story, It's just not my kinda thing. The art is cool, I can tell that much.

Bluebug · Post by **Bluebug** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:38 pm

Boo. Ah well. I expected as much. The story doesn't lend itself to a broad audience. In fact, this topic would fit so much better in the Keenime board ... if only there was anyone in that board to read it.

The fact that the comic is four chapters long doesn't help matters. Well, I would be quite happy if anyone feels inclined to read the boiled down version of the comic (ie. the recaps), and give me their impression based on that. I'm really interested in a non-biased opinion (ie. not me).

KittyKatBlack · Post by **KittyKatBlack** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:39 pm

Well, I just read through the entire archive. I can see sort of how the 'cleche' thing could be formed. Normal fantasy storylines start with 'Young boy from village. Young boy gets sacred artifact. Young boy leaves village and goes on epic quest." Which, I admit has been done before, but I was interested in how the boy didn't turn out to be the actual hero after all, and instead it follows the path of the assassin that showed up. I honestly thought that assassin was going to be a minor character that was just for plot development, I had no idea it would turn out to be the true main character. I guess unless you read far enough, it does look like it starts out as a generic fantasy story. If people sit down and take time to read the story, they will find you have a very good story telling ability (Though I will have to say that occasionally your pages get confusing, and you're left going, 'Wait... what just happened?") but generally anything you missed gets recapped at some point or another, so it's not that bad.
The art is very very good, so any comments on that are pretty much just 'Wow! So awesome!' and stuff, so I'll leave out a bunch of comments about the art since it's not hampering anything at all. It WAS quite long, but I figured since I jumped in this thread I at least owe it to you to read the story at one point. It does seem interesting, even though epics are generally not my sort of thing. The fact that it's 4 chapters long so far is a good thing though. You got the hard part out of the way when it comes to epics, you have some story to work from. When people first start storyline/epic comics a lot of the time it doesn't make much sence since all the story is still in the artists head, so it's not really worth reading until there's e decent ammount to read.
I will also say that there are a LOT of anime references, and yes, it would probably appeal much more to an anime-based crowd than the general web-junkie. If nothing else because of the use of japanese words tossed in for good measure, that would otherwise confuse and frustrate the majority of non-anime-literate people.
There is also one particular thing I wanted to bring up. Even though it's a little late for this particular page I wanted to point out a suggestion I would have about this:
http://km.keenspace.com/d/20030208.html
This particular page is important because it shows a very good view of the main character's emotions, which I felt was a little dumed down by the comment at the bottom about the amulet missing from the tree. I can understand why it's there, because after reading the coment, the fact that the amulet was missing and it's signifigance was apparent to me, but I felt that if you'd done a small inset of the empty branch itself in the panel just to emphasise the focus on the emptyness of the branch, instead of an out-of-story comment at the bottom it would have had a much better impact. Hindsight is 20/20, and I probably would have done the same thing at the time, so it's not anything personal against your storytelling abilities. I just thought I should point it out, so if you ever have to do a scene iike that again you have another view of how to go about it. This is just my personal opinion though.

Anyway, I know that was long, but I did actually want to read this thing through cause it looked interesting.

(PS. I voted for you at BuzzComix. Effort like this is worth the click. ^_^)

Lana · Post by **Lana** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:08 pm

Hi, just had a look at your site. (love the drawings by the way)

For the archive pages I would put the advertisement and the banner exchange right next to each other on top of the page. Perhaps leave a little room but put them in same line.

The navigation for the website areas - I would put them in a horizonzal order under the calendar. You have empty room there so it would fit np.

The chapter links - I would put them under the "read story from beginning" link and change the "read the condensed version" to "storyline" or "quick reader's guide" - I found it hard to understand what it was supposed to mean till I clicked it.

I think it would look better if you did it like this:

Beginning
Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3
...
Storyline

The navigation buttons - cute! I love them.

- Lana

Bluebug · Post by **Bluebug** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:52 pm

KittyKatBlack wrote:Well, I just read through the entire archive. I can see sort of how the 'cleche' thing could be formed. Normal fantasy storylines start with 'Young boy from village. Young boy gets sacred artifact. Young boy leaves village and goes on epic quest." Which, I admit has been done before, but I was interested in how the boy didn't turn out to be the actual hero after all, and instead it follows the path of the assassin that showed up. I honestly thought that assassin was going to be a minor character that was just for plot development, I had no idea it would turn out to be the true main character.

True. That was semi-intended. The boy, Turo, was supposed to have a much smaller part, but Chapter X then got drawn out ... to the point where he was so well fleshed out that Turo became one of the most popular characters in the comic. Though the prolonged focus in the first Chapter upon Turo's little adventure detracts from the main roots of the story ... which give the beginning of the comic a meandering feel. At the same time, a little twist in the story is always fun. It's not very interesting if there are no surprises.

I guess unless you read far enough, it does look like it starts out as a generic fantasy story. If people sit down and take time to read the story, they will find you have a very good story telling ability (Though I will have to say that occasionally your pages get confusing, and you're left going, 'Wait... what just happened?") but generally anything you missed gets recapped at some point or another, so it's not that bad.

I don't suppose you can remember and point out some of those confusing moments?

The art is very very good, so any comments on that are pretty much just 'Wow! So awesome!' and stuff, so I'll leave out a bunch of comments about the art since it's not hampering anything at all. It WAS quite long, but I figured since I jumped in this thread I at least owe it to you to read the story at one point. It does seem interesting, even though epics are generally not my sort of thing.

Much gratitude for reading the whole thing when it's not your thing. I always worry about being in such a small niche ... both fantasy and "manga-styled" comics are small "markets" as it were. I'll definitely return the favor and check out your archives sometime soon.

I will also say that there are a LOT of anime references, and yes, it would probably appeal much more to an anime-based crowd than the general web-junkie. If nothing else because of the use of japanese words tossed in for good measure, that would otherwise confuse and frustrate the majority of non-anime-literate people.

Ah yes, my moment of shame. My random use of Japanese was meant to be an homage to the influences of the comic (as if they weren't already obvious ... I had decided to make it even more obvious). I've since decided to take out all Japanese (except for names ... which will no doubt be a source of aggravation for some ... but when the comic is named "Kurenai Mashin", what can you do ...?)

This particular page is important because it shows a very good view of the main character's emotions, which I felt was a little dumed down by the comment at the bottom about the amulet missing from the tree. I can understand why it's there, because after reading the coment, the fact that the amulet was missing and it's signifigance was apparent to me, but I felt that if you'd done a small inset of the empty branch itself in the panel just to emphasise the focus on the emptyness of the branch, instead of an out-of-story comment at the bottom it would have had a much better impact.

No, I see your point completely. It was a bit of cheating on my part. I took the easy way out by writing a little note at the bottom, rather than thinking about how I could use my artwork to portray this moment of significance. I doubt I'll redraw the page, but it is definitely something I always have to keep in the back of my mind.

Anyway, I know that was long, but I did actually want to read this thing through cause it looked interesting.

Not at all. Thanks for your thorough critiquing. It's all too rare. Glad you enjoyed it somewhat, even though it's not your normal fare.

(PS. I voted for you at BuzzComix. Effort like this is worth the click. ^_^)

Thanks so much! Votes are as hard to get as critiques!

And that is the end of my long-winded reply ...

Bluebug · Post by **Bluebug** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:58 pm

Lana wrote:Hi, just had a look at your site. (love the drawings by the way)

For the archive pages I would put the advertisement and the banner exchange right next to each other on top of the page. Perhaps leave a little room but put them in same line.

The navigation for the website areas - I would put them in a horizonzal order under the calendar. You have empty room there so it would fit np.

- Lana

Thanks for the tips, Lana. All good ideas. I was dissatisfied with where I decided to put the links to the beginning/condensed version of the story. Putting them with the chapter links is a great idea *slaps forehead* Much more intuitive than what I decided to do. I shall move them.

KittyKatBlack · Post by **KittyKatBlack** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:54 pm

bluebug wrote: I don't suppose you can remember and point out some of those confusing moments?

I don't remember them all, but I looked through it again and things like the transition between http://km.keenspace.com/d/20030501.html and http://km.keenspace.com/d/20030505.html kind of what I'm talking about. Mainly the bottom left panel in http://km.keenspace.com/d/20030501.html. He's obviously surprised by something (I'm still not sure what though), and I assume it's the girl with the knives since she seems to be more powerful than him. But in the next panel he walks out as if nothing is wrong. You would think that a little stunt like that would make him be a bit more careful and have some doubts about his victory. But he doesn't even seem to notice he was 'given' that battle until later in the story when his antidote is fake.

I think another thing that confuses me mostly is the Japanese names, but that's mostly me. I'm not Japanese, I'm American so the names sometimes all end up looking sort of the same to me. When they're talking about other people that aren't on the page, I sometimes get lost over who their talking about. That's not really your fault, but I just know I sometimes got confused by it. I guess the only way to really get around this happening is to make sure you have enough story about a character to make a solid connection between a face and a name. More or less, I'd just suggest avoiding having a character show up breifly on one page and then later involve them in a conversation where people are supposed to remember who they are. I think this only happened a couple times, and I noticed at one point you aeven put a comment at the bottom to remind people who someone was incase they forgot.

I read through it again looking for the stuff that confused me the first time, but since I already read through it once I had trouble finding it since I knew what was going on this time and it wasn't as confusing as the first time I saw it, so I had trouble finding any real specific examples.

I hope this answers your question.