Comments from the North
Oh dear, wish, I <P>wish you hadn't brought this up right now. I have already responded to a poster on the CRFH forum in hurt tones over this post. So I cannot dodge my responsibility to answer your question, on this board that I feel is my home on the net.<P>Let me say this first. As the news broke, I was at my desk. Within minutes, someone had a broadcast radio feed on his speakers, and we were caching feeds off high-speed links for rebroadcast to the customer (who builds aeroplanes and has a legitimate business interest, we said to ourselves) Initial stunned shock was replaced with quiet speculation, but as we spoke the towers fell and reduced us to silence again. I saw people unable to speak, I saw people in tears, my keyboard was wet, I couldn't focus on my monitor...<P>I feel terribly ambivalent about commenting at all. When your friends are in trouble, you don't bring up past disagreements, you go and help. I hope you all are aware of our unconditional support at this aweful moment. I know there are medical specialists and rescue professionals from all over Europe who are hoping to be on the first flights to resume. You will be aware of Lord Robertson's announcement of NATO's invocation of Clause Five, "an attack on one is an attack on all", and Prime Minister Blair's earlier declaration "we stand shoulder to shoulder with the United States".<P>Some of this may help you understand why, from my own European perspective, I find this article dreadfully inappropriate to the present events. Gordon Sinclair apparantly wrote it in a sense of outrage at what he perceived to be world ingratitude, in 1973, the dark days of the end of the Vietnam War. But his facts, the barbs he throws at the non-American world, are wild exaggerations at best, and deeply wounding to those who are grieving with you right now.<P>We paid off our war debt, we don't owe you money.<P>The railway and aeroplane spite can be answered by any engineering student.<P>I've already related events that give the lie, today, to his quoted-out-of-context cavil that we won't help when you need it.<P>"Stand proud, America!" That I can cheer for. Strip the rest, retain only those last three words.<P>I can personally attest that Americans are open and generous, good people and good friends. I would hate this piece, quoted out of its context, to be the cause of ill-feeling between us.<P>I am powerfully reminded of one of my quote-file entries, garnered years ago from the Analog column-fillers attributed to Kelvin Throop:<P>To get the attention of a large animal, be it an elephant or a bureaucracy, it helps to know what part of it feels pain.<P>******<P>Be very sure, though, that you want its full attention.<P>Muttley<P>We know of three lost to us, two in the aircraft and one in the Pentagon; and one more is still to be heard from.<p>[This message has been edited by Muttley (edited 09-14-2001).]
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Captain Mel
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- Location: Miami, Florida, USA
What a beautiful speach Wish. What has happened is a terrible,terrible thing. I belief that America is going to need everyones help. I honestly belief this is the first of many attacks. The people who were cheering on the TV truly digusted me. If this does end up in a full scale war I hope all other countries will fight with us.
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Captain Mel
- Regular Poster
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- Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
- Location: Miami, Florida, USA
What a beautiful speach Wish. What has happened is a terrible,terrible thing. I belief that America is going to need everyones help. I honestly belief this is the first of many attacks. The people who were cheering on the TV truly digusted me. If this does end up in a full scale war I hope all other countries will fight with us.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captain Mel:
<B>The people who were cheering on the TV truly digusted me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know how you feel. I used to live in the United States, and I remember rather keenly being disgusted when, during the savage bombing that was directed against Iraq (and Kuwait, although we were supposedly defending them), there was footage on television of my fellow Americans cheering in the streets, in bars, and in their living rooms about how we were going to bomb Saddam Hussein (and everyone within a fairly large radius of him) into the stone ages. Particularly given that the US ambassador to Iraq had previously informed Hussein that the US would not interfere with an Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, and that far from defending democracy, our soldiers and equipment were fighting to protect a monarchy in Kuwait.<P>So, I know how you feel. It's disgusting to see people who hate each other so much that they'll cheer at each others suffering. My family was so disgusted we moved away from the country we lived in, where people did just that... The United States.<P>What happened on Tuesday was a terrible, terrible tragedy. There is no justification for such acts of violence. But there's no justification for the US of A to claim any kind of moral high ground, either.<P>------------------
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This message is an act of coversion. Do not attempt to understand it. It will not be explained.
<B>The people who were cheering on the TV truly digusted me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know how you feel. I used to live in the United States, and I remember rather keenly being disgusted when, during the savage bombing that was directed against Iraq (and Kuwait, although we were supposedly defending them), there was footage on television of my fellow Americans cheering in the streets, in bars, and in their living rooms about how we were going to bomb Saddam Hussein (and everyone within a fairly large radius of him) into the stone ages. Particularly given that the US ambassador to Iraq had previously informed Hussein that the US would not interfere with an Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, and that far from defending democracy, our soldiers and equipment were fighting to protect a monarchy in Kuwait.<P>So, I know how you feel. It's disgusting to see people who hate each other so much that they'll cheer at each others suffering. My family was so disgusted we moved away from the country we lived in, where people did just that... The United States.<P>What happened on Tuesday was a terrible, terrible tragedy. There is no justification for such acts of violence. But there's no justification for the US of A to claim any kind of moral high ground, either.<P>------------------
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This message is an act of coversion. Do not attempt to understand it. It will not be explained.
Muttley, I'm sorry. I didn't mean the post as an attack on anyone at all. First of all, I, personally, wasn't sure how to process what was in this speech. I know that, as an American, I go back and forth between feeling horribly guilty and injustly slighted about seven times a week. I was actually squirming uncomfortably by the end of the article, because I know that Americans often don't give aid solely out of generosity, but out of impatience and feelings of harrasment. I know I have.<P>Even after what's happened this week, I think that the commentator who wrote this piece went too easy on us as a country. There is corruption and selfishness in this country. For every brilliant advance in technology, there has been a companion swath of devestation to the environment. For nearly every dollar of aid, there has been a hefty price tag in loyalties and sometimes freedom.<P>I didn't intend to post this as a 'take that, Europe, Asia, Africa, etc!' I guess I was just curious to see if there was anyone else out there in our own country or any other, who had another opinion. <P>This article frankly startled me. I'm used to living with the idea that this country often acts greedy, self-centered, and prideful. I'm used to the idea that our people are often seen as sluggish, dull, and tasteless. To me, the thought that we might be seen as a force of good in the eyes of other nations was like the shock of diving into frigid water. I've become so accustomed to living with American Guilt that this second opinion pretty much broadsided me.<P>Again, I apologise, Muttley. I didn't mean to accuse or torment anyone. <P>-Wish
Still reeling.
Still reeling.
A Canadian friend of mine sent me this editorial by a television commentator in Toronto. The commentator's name is Gordon Sinclair, for those interested. I know we have several people on the board from other countries, and I wanted to know what they thought of this essay:<P>
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.<P>Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.<P>When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.<P>When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.<P>The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.<P>I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?<P>Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.<P>You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at . Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.<P>When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.<P>I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.<P>Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.<P>Stand proud, America!"<P>Thoughts? Rebuttals?<P>-Wish
Nobody needs extra jerky. Remember that.
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.<P>Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.<P>When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.<P>When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.<P>The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.<P>I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?<P>Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.<P>You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at . Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.<P>When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.<P>I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.<P>Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.<P>Stand proud, America!"<P>Thoughts? Rebuttals?<P>-Wish
Nobody needs extra jerky. Remember that.
It's been distributed all over the net at this point - twice - and it dates from 1973, when the US was still embroiled in Vietnam.<P>Nevertheless, it's a good and cogent read in a trying time. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"><P>------------------
James<P>"Without death there would be very little progress." - Steve Jobs
James<P>"Without death there would be very little progress." - Steve Jobs
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GarrisonBeckett
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My thanks to Mr. Sinclair.<P></P>I have had problems with my homeland in the past, from bureaucratic sloth to questionable practices in both court and government, even to the point of joking about leaving the country after the fiasco of the last presidential elections. It's easy for us here to see America in a poor light, and easier to forget what we have done for others historically, and what we as a nation continue to do. The tragedy of last Tuesday has brought out a side of Americans that few, sadly, ever see; the lines around the corners to give blood, the all-night road trips to deliver skin grafts, the fire fighters and EMTs who leave homes by the truckloads to help, and even the "greedy" corporations taht donate millions in money and services to both those in need and those who help. I can readily say that I have never been prouder of my homeland. I also wish I could thank Tony Blair and Queen Elzabeth for their immediate support of the U.S., and the nations of the world who have honestly and sincerely offered condolences and aid, through ceremony, through NATO, and through the solemn tears of their people. As proud as America has reason to be, we can't chastise our global neighbors for acts of the past, I think; this is a "moment of truth," when we shall find out what our good deeds have reaped in friendship. We'll be pleasantly surprised.<P></P>--GB<P></P>"May the Force be with us all."