It's in my brain! [music]

Gwalla · Post by **Gwalla** » Tue Apr 24, 2001 12:16 am

Thanks to a prize of $100 awarded to me by my employers (for "most professional", IIRC, which shows that I've become pretty good at faking it), I went out and bought Rhino records' "Brain in a Box: the Science Fiction Collection", a boxed set of music related to SF. It has its good points and its bad points, but IMO the good outweighs the bad and I heartily recommend buying it.First off, the packaging is a lot of fun. It's a metallic box with holograms on the front and sides showing a brain floating "inside" the box. The top is covered with printed "dials" ("Hypothalamus, Midbrain, Cerebellum, Thalamus, Wash, Rinse, Dry"). Inside are five CDs and a book. Each CD has a cover related to the contents and drawn in a psuedo-fifties pulp style: e.g. the Movie Themes disc has a bunch of cars parked at a drive in showing a movie with flying saucers, while a real flying saucer is lifting one car up in its tractor beam.There are 5 CDs in the box (in order): Movie Themes, TV Themes, Pop, Incidental/Lounge, and Novelty. The first two have the best stuff IMO, although the Lounge disc unexpectedly has quite a few gems. The Pop and Novelty discs are the most disappointing, and are sort of interchangeable...the B-52's "Planet Claire" ends up on Novelty for some reason, even though They Might Be Giants' "For Science" (a short little ditty that definitely should qualify as "novelty") is on the Pop disc.I recommend listening in order, at least the first time. Movie Themes starts off with "Science Fiction Double Feature" from Rocky Horror, a fitting introduction to the collection. Then, it kicks off the movie themes proper with the intro to Richard Strauss' "Also Spach Zarathustra" (better known as the theme from 2001...dunnn, Dunn, Dunn...DUN-DUNNN!! bum-bum bum-bum bum-bum...). Unfortunately, Star Wars is not represented (they couldn't get the rights), but there's plenty of John Williams (including "E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial"). Other highlights include the weird heartbeat theme from "Fantastic Voyage", "Terminator 2: Judgement Day", "Alien", and more theremin than you can shake a stick at. It closes with the theme from "The Matrix" (a new recording for some reason).TV Themes has a ton of great stuff. First off is three different opening themes from the Twilight Zone: the first season theme, the second season theme (which introduced the "neeneeneenee neeneeneenee" and Rod Sterling's voice-over) and the theme from the 4th and 5th seasons (mostly the same as the 2nd, but with a different voice-over). Other tracks include the theme to "Stingray", the themes to "Star Trek" and "Star Trek: the Next Generation", the "Astro Boy" song, "The Jetsons" theme, the opening theme from "The Simpsons: Bart's Treehouse of Horror #1", and "The Outer Limits" (the Controlling Voice gets its own track, as well as the theme proper). It ends with what's basically a bonus track: called "Changing Channels", it's a bunch of clips of dialogue from 1950s SF TV shows, movies, and news reports concerning UFOs.Pop starts off with the classic Telstar by the Tornadoes (as produced by Ron Meeks), an instrumental ballad that sounds like an old Nintendo and a surf guitar band, recorded on scratchy vinyl...and played back underwater. This disc has some of the weaker entries: including Jefferson Airplane's "Have You Seen the Saucers", evidently recorded before they learned to play their instruments or sing on key (it sounds like they were twice as stoned as they normally were, a condition that shouldn't be humanly survivable); and Graham Parson's "Waiting for the UFOS", in which he pronounces UFO with 2 syllables (as "yoo-foh"). Still, there's some fun songs on there, like "Machines" by Lothar and the Hand People (Lothar was the name of their theremin), "Out of Limits" (a surf guitar standard that mixes the Twilight Zone's "neeneeneenee" with a twist rhythm), and TMBG's "For Science" ("Yes I will kiss the girl from Venus...FOR SCIENCE!!!").Incidental/Lounge is surprisingly good, since a lot of composers used "futuristic" themes as an excuse to be a little adventurous (NOTE: this is the Mancini type of lounge, not the Tom Jones type...mostly instrumental). Some of it is the silly look-ma-I-can-play-theremin Disney's Tomorrowland type of stuff, but there's also "Frozen Neptune" and "Man from Mars", both excellent, and Sun-Ra's "Space is the Place". "Mars, Bringer of War" from Holst's "The Planets" really doesn't belong in "lounge" (or really in the collection at all), but it's good anyway. Unfortunately, this disc also has the single worst track in the collection: Leonard Nimoy's spoken-word torture device "Alien".The last CD is "Novelty". It's about on par with Pop. As well as "The Purple People Eater" (a requirement), it also has a punk band covering the theme from "Gigantor", the B-52's "Planet Claire", and a whole bunch of stuff you've probably never heard of (some for good reason).The real prize of the set is, actually, the book. Titled "Brain in a Book", it's actually filled with great reading. With an introduction by Ray Bradbury, it contains a fairly long essay on the development of SF in general and its relation to music in particular...with asides covering the filk song tradition, and the appropriation of the terms "grok" (from Stranger in a Strange Land) and "blesh" (from More Than Human) by the 1960s music press. Later entries include a reminiscence by the man who played the Gill Man in "Creature From the Black Lagoon", Dr. Demento, journal entries by Arthur C. Clarke from during his collaboration with Stanley Kubrick on 2001 ("Stanley returned from "H.G. Wells' Things to Come" and told me that he will never go to see another movie I recommend"), and even an essay ("I Ain't Got No Body: Disembodied Brains and Transfigured Consciousness") about "The Brain That Wouldn't Die" that almost makes you forget that the movie sucked. And lots of great photos of SF memorabilia and book covers.To sum up: thumbs up. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif"> A lot of fun, even with its weaknesses. Highly recommended.------------------
"Sun Ra? He's out to lunch, all right...same place I eat at!"
- George Clinton[This message has been edited by gwalla (edited 04-24-2001).]

Czhorat · Post by **Czhorat** » Tue Apr 24, 2001 1:36 am

Thanks for the review, gwalla!I'm not sure if I can justify the $100 pricetag, but the collection looks really neat. And anyone here with any patience can get it from amazon.com for $90. Yes, it is lots of money, but it also looks like lots of product. Certainly something worth looking at.Does anyone else here have anything interesting you've encountered and would like to share with the group? It could be a great way for some of us to find things we've missed.

Muttley · Post by **Muttley** » Tue Apr 24, 2001 1:40 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gwalla:

TV Themes has a ton of great stuff. First off is three different opening themes from the Twilight Zone: the first season theme, the second season theme (which introduced the "neeneeneenee neeneeneenee" and Rod Sterling's voice-over) ---it also has a punk band covering the theme from "Gigantor", <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My PC startup sound is a section from the Manhattan Transfer version of the Twilight Zone theme, which has a fair rendition of the voiceover. I'd love to replace it with the real thing, but don't think I can justify the cost just for that. Maybe I can persuade the library to get it.Gigantor! My goodness, that's - - - old. Does it have the original theme as well??Muttley,
recovering from 'flu - temperature now the right side of 100 [This message has been edited by Muttley (edited 04-24-2001).]

Muttley · Post by **Muttley** » Tue Apr 24, 2001 1:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Czhorat:

Does anyone else here have anything interesting you've encountered and would like to share with the group? It could be a great way for some of us to find things we've missed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not in the same vein as gwalla's, but I had a great Christmas present; "The Remains of Tom Lehrer" - a triple CD box-set containing everything he's ever recorded, with a fat book containing all the lyrics. Now, I'm a Lehrer fan, and have only had two albums on vinyl up to now, so this was a real treat. Muttley
--
We aim for the stars, but sometimes we hit London
Werner von Braun

Gwalla · Post by **Gwalla** » Tue Apr 24, 2001 2:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Muttley:
Gigantor! My goodness, that's - - - old. Does it have the original theme as well??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It doesn't have the original Gigantor theme, but it does have the Astro Boy theme.
------------------
"Sun Ra? He's out to lunch, all right...same place I eat at!"
- George Clinton

Maccabee · Post by **Maccabee** » Tue Apr 24, 2001 7:14 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Muttley:
 Not in the same vein as gwalla's, but I had a great Christmas present; "The Remains of Tom Lehrer" - a triple CD box-set containing everything he's ever recorded, with a fat book containing all the lyrics. Now, I'm a Lehrer fan, and have only had two albums on vinyl up to now, so this was a real treat. Muttley
--
We aim for the stars, but sometimes we hit London
Werner von Braun<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I love Tom Lehrer! The Nuclear Proliferation song (I'm blanking on the official title at the moment) is one of my all-time favorites.Hubert Humphrey in 2004 -- rested, reanimated, and rarin' to go.

Gwalla · Post by **Gwalla** » Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maccabee:
 I love Tom Lehrer! The Nuclear Proliferation song (I'm blanking on the official title at the moment) is one of my all-time favorites.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We Will All Go Together When We Go
Every Hottentot and every Eskimo
When the world become uraneous
We will all go simultaneous
Yes we all will go together when we go------------------
"Sun Ra? He's out to lunch, all right...same place I eat at!"
- George Clinton

Muttley · Post by **Muttley** » Wed Apr 25, 2001 2:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maccabee:
 I love Tom Lehrer! The Nuclear Proliferation song (I'm blanking on the official title at the moment) is one of my all-time favorites.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Could be "We Will All Go Together When We Go", as gwalla suggests, or maybe the "MLF Lullaby" - MLF
Will scare Brezhnev,
I hope he is half as scared as I!But I still like "The Vatican Rag"Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional,
There the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original.
If it is, try playin' it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!By the way, does your nickname come from Babylon 5 (character played by Roy Dotrice, Minister of Truth or Information) or is there another story behind it?Muttley
--
ski mountaineering: simplified way to move fast, fall a short distance, and remain uninjured. usually.
-- "An Alphabet for Mountaineers", Climbing 1982

Maccabee · Post by **Maccabee** » Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Muttley:
 Could be "We Will All Go Together When We Go", as gwalla suggests, or maybe the "MLF Lullaby" - MLF
Will scare Brezhnev,
I hope he is half as scared as I!But I still like "The Vatican Rag"
{snip}By the way, does your nickname come from Babylon 5 (character played by Roy Dotrice, Minister of Truth or Information) or is there another story behind it?Muttley<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The one I was thinking of beganFirst we got the bomb, and that was good
'Cause we love peace and motherhood
Then Russia Got the bomb but that's okay
'Cause the balance of power's maintained that way.Who's Next?If you're referring to my handle, it's the name of my second Shadowrun character, who hailed from Israel and used a war hammer in hand-to-hand (Maccabee="the hammer")The original Maccabee was Judah, who led the Jewish rebellion against the Selucids celebrated in story and dreidl song.------------------
Risus est telum ultimum contra tyrranem. Nullus dictator exercitibus allibus ridiculem vulgi longe resistare potest.

Tom the Fanboy · Post by **Tom the Fanboy** » Wed Apr 25, 2001 8:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maccabee:

The original Maccabee was Judah, who led the Jewish rebellion against the Selucids celebrated in story and dreidl song.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Important note to others (not you Greg). This is not the same Judah that the kingdom and tribe were named after. Maccabee (again, not you Greg) was named AFTER Judah Son of Israel. Thank you for letting me exercise my Christian College Skills.------------------
Tom the Fanboy
http://www.geocities.com/tee-moss[begin Fans! code]
E(xkodt)M++FF-A++W+++FCt++(s)Ip20000406f1mcKt+cCp- -bw++Ll++
[end Fans! code]

Muttley · Post by **Muttley** » Thu Apr 26, 2001 1:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maccabee:
 The one I was thinking of beganFirst we got the bomb, and that was good
'Cause we love peace and motherhood
Then Russia Got the bomb but that's okay
'Cause the balance of power's maintained that way.Who's Next?---The original Maccabee was Judah, who led the Jewish rebellion against the Selucids celebrated in story and dreidl song.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You will be unsurprised to learn that this is called "Who's Next"Then France got the bomb, but don't you grieve,
'Cause they're on our side (I believe).
China got the bomb, but have no fears,
'Cause they can't wipe us out for at least five years.
Who's next?Of the "Big Five", only England doesn't get a mention. No, I'm not going to make anything out of that.(CD box-set Warner Archives/Rhino Records Reprise R2 79831)Re: Maccabbee; yes, I thought the derivation might be biblical, but couldn't place it. Must do more research before posting, must do more research . . . Ah they're in the Apocrypha! Oh, and the character played by Roy Dotrice was Fredrick Lantze of the Ministry of Peace, in The Fall of Night episode of B5. A MiniPax agent called Macabee turns up in an earlier episode (In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum). Now what was it I was saying about memory?Muttley

Maccabee · Post by **Maccabee** » Thu Apr 26, 2001 5:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom the Fanboy:
 Thank you for letting me exercise my Christian College Skills.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"If we have brought some pleasure into your humdrum little lives, then it ain't all been in vain fer nuthin'!"Lena Lamonte
Singin' In The Rain <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">------------------
Risus est telum ultimum contra tyrranem. Nullus dictator exercitibus allibus ridiculem vulgi longe resistare potest.

Maccabee · Post by **Maccabee** » Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Muttley:
 You will be unsurprised to learn that this is called "Who's Next"Figures. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/rolleye ... Then France got the bomb, but don't you grieve,
'Cause they're on our side (I believe).
China got the bomb, but have no fears,
'Cause they can't wipe us out for at least five years.
Who's next?Of the "Big Five", only England doesn't get a mention. No, I'm not going to make anything out of that.Muttley<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Probably because the Anglo-American alliance was solid enough that both powers having the bomb didn't seem like such a huge change from when just one of them did.South Africa needs two, that's right --
One for the black and one for the whiteWho's next?I really need to get his stuff on CD...------------------
Risus est telum ultimum contra tyrranem. Nullus dictator exercitibus allibus ridiculem vulgi longe resistare potest.

Gwalla · Post by **Gwalla** » Fri Apr 27, 2001 11:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Muttley:
Re: Maccabbee; yes, I thought the derivation might be biblical, but couldn't place it. Must do more research before posting, must do more research . . . Ah they're in the Apocrypha!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As long as you're a Protestant, yeah. The Catholics consider 1 and 2 Maccabees to be deuterocanonical (meaning "later added to the canon" but still considered authoritative). So do the Orthodox, IIRC, who also consider 3 and 4 Maccabees to be canonical.Josephus also wrote about Judas Maccabeus and his family in the Jewish Antiquities. I think there's also an opera about him (it's been one of the more popular apocryphal books).------------------
"Sun Ra? He's out to lunch, all right...same place I eat at!"
- George Clinton

Muttley · Post by **Muttley** » Sun Apr 29, 2001 3:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maccabee:
 Probably because the Anglo-American alliance was solid enough that both powers having the bomb didn't seem like such a huge change from when just one of them did.-----I really need to get his stuff on CD...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ahem,
Actually, we got the bomb at the same time you did. It was a joint project, and we sent our atom scientists to join in, along with a few other gifts, including the cavity magnetron (making all radar, but particularly airborne, much easier to make) and jet engine data. I think there was a falling-out after the war which meant that we had to develop the H-bomb separately, but don't quote me.from <A HREF="http://ebooks.whsmithonline.co.uk/encyc ... 009508.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://ebooks.whsmithonline.co.uk/encyc ... 508.htm</A>
Research began in the UK 1940 and was transferred to the USA after its entry into World War II the following year. Known as the Manhattan Project, the work was carried out under the direction of the US physicist J Robert Oppenheimer at Los Alamos, New Mexico. After one test explosion, two atom bombs were dropped on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima (6 August 1945) and Nagasaki (9 August 1945); the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was as powerful as 12,700 tonnes of TNT, that on Nagaskai was equivalent to 22,000 tonnes of TNT. The USSR first detonated an atom bomb 1949 and the UK 1952.
Amazon shows that "The Remains of Tom Lehrer" is available for about $45, and it does contain everything he's ever done . . .

Maccabee · Post by **Maccabee** » Sun Apr 29, 2001 6:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Muttley:
 The USSR first detonated an atom bomb 1949 and the UK 1952.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And therein lies the difference. Having the research and having stockpiled weapons are two different things.Britain going from knowing how to make one to actually having one was a change -- but not one that really changed the balance of power since the US and UK were firm NATO allies in spite of occasional policy differences (e.g. the Sinai in '56). France drifted out of NATO and had a weird quasi-member status, making them line-worthy for the song.For a world where the US and UK really split, read Harry Turtledove's Colonization series. Nazi Germany survives the war, and England (shorn of its colonies) gradually drifts into the German orbit during the '50s. The story takes place in the early '60s -- two volumes are out already.------------------
Risus est telum ultimum contra tyrranem. Nullus dictator exercitibus allibus ridiculem vulgi longe resistare potest.

Muttley · Post by **Muttley** » Mon Apr 30, 2001 3:16 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maccabee:

the US and UK were firm NATO allies in spite of occasional policy differences (e.g. the Sinai in '56).-----For a world where the US and UK really split, read Harry Turtledove's Colonization series. Nazi Germany survives the war, and England (shorn of its colonies) gradually drifts into the German orbit during the '50s.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, I think Lehrer didn't want to waste any more lines on the big players, as South Africa et al gave many more comic possibilities.Sinia in '56 an "occasional policy difference"! Known a "The Suez Crisis" over here, it toppled the government (not saying that they didn't deserve it). Britain, France, Israel go to war with Egypt, and the US says "No!" and takes the ball away!In reality it was the cold light of a new day for the UK, the wake-up call that told us that the days of our Imperial influence really had gone. The fact was that we had spent our empire to gain victory in WWII (so not without honour then). The politicians just hadn't noticed.I was a toddler then, and I still have vague memories of the news headlines, and the sense of numbness (yes, and betrayal) that overcame us at that time. Hindsight allows a more balanced view.Re: Turtledove: he's competant, but I have trouble with "alternate universe" stories (look how badly I'm doing in Auxilerated!) It was once said that you don't need inspiration to write an alternate universe story, just a history book and a hammer. (It doesn't help that in Auxilerated there appear to be several alternates involved, most of which I don't recognise the originals for! I feel a wandering monster coming on!)Muttley

Maccabee · Post by **Maccabee** » Tue May 01, 2001 3:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Muttley:
 Actually, I think Lehrer didn't want to waste any more lines on the big players, as South Africa et al gave many more comic possibilities.Sinia in '56 an "occasional policy difference"! Known a "The Suez Crisis" over here, it toppled the government (not saying that they didn't deserve it). Britain, France, Israel go to war with Egypt, and the US says "No!" and takes the ball away!In reality it was the cold light of a new day for the UK, the wake-up call that told us that the days of our Imperial influence really had gone. The fact was that we had spent our empire to gain victory in WWII (so not without honour then). The politicians just hadn't noticed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've mostly studied the Sinai War from the Israeli perspective, from which having to shape foreign policy based on the need to keep allies happy is kind of a given. It was insensitive of me not to fully realize that this was a new and horribly uncomfortable feeling for a nation that had controlled a quarter of the Earth's land surface only a short time before. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 
Re: Turtledove: he's competant, but I have trouble with "alternate universe" stories (look how badly I'm doing in Auxilerated!) It was once said that you don't need inspiration to write an alternate universe story, just a history book and a hammer.Muttley<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There I'm going to have to respectfully but strongly disagree. One of the things SF in general does is examine the human condition by showing it in the funhouse mirror of changed premises. This is what good alternate history does (bad alternate history is either wishful thinking on somebody's part or a chance to do the historical equivalent of the Enterprise vs. Imperial Star Destroyer Battle). It examines the essential spirits of historical figures by trying to guess how they'd behave under changed circumstances -- for instance, what would a Lincoln who'd lost the American Civil War do after being turned out of office in disgrace? It examines social interaction by imagining how cultures that were swamped in the real world might have developed if they'd survived, or how successful societies would have dealt with disaster.There are also sci-fi "alternate histories" -- remember how popular Yesterday's Enterprise was? Again, it's the power of seeing a familiar character in unfamiliar circumstances.There is history-book-and-hammer stuff out there. Harry Harrison's alternate Civil War series (Stars and Stripes) does this. His research is inconsistent, his characters don't behave consistently with their historical models. I'm going to toss out major spoilers for the book here, but I don't think many of you were planning on reading it anyway, so...He changes history in the Winter of 1861-'62 by having England go to war with the U.S. over the Trent affair (for those of you not up on Civil War history, a U.S. ship boarded an English vessel and siezed a couple of Confederate diplomats -- same sort of thing Britain did to the U.S. to help start the war of 1812). Things swing off on a highly improbable tangent, all of this before Robert E. Lee would have taken over the Army of Northern Virginia. So Lee never fights and wins all those battles, and they still talk about his great victories in the book -- Harrison keeps on forgetting that he's wiped out all that history. He does other things that really bothered me, but if you haven't read the book my whining about them is a bit of a waste of time.I have to admit, alternate history is my favorite sub-genre at the moment. I'm even fiddling with a couple of ideas myself -- I just need better mass-market hooks... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/frown.gif">getting off my soapbox now,
Greg------------------
Risus est telum ultimum contra tyrranem. Nullus dictator exercitibus allibus ridiculem vulgi longe resistare potest.

Gwalla · Post by **Gwalla** » Tue May 01, 2001 9:46 am

And then there's The Man in the High Castle...(actually, I couldn't really get into that one, even though I normally like PKD)------------------
"Sun Ra? He's out to lunch, all right...same place I eat at!"
- George Clinton

Muttley · Post by **Muttley** » Thu May 03, 2001 5:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maccabee:
It was insensitive of me not to fully realize that this was a new and horribly uncomfortable feeling for a nation that had controlled a quarter of the Earth's land surface only a short time before.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh, I'm not offended, as I tried to make clear in my reply: I was just adding my perspective to to overall view. To put in another bit of context, the US and UK had been fighting together in Korea only three years earlier. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maccabee:
 There I'm going to have to respectfully but strongly disagree. One of the things SF in general does is examine the human condition by showing it in the funhouse mirror of changed premises.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Chaq'un a son gout. I'm not a historian in the first place, only remembering the gist of most history, not the details, so I end up having to keep a reference book open as well, which reduces my tolerance. Perhaps I've been unlucky and read too many of the formulaic hack-written stuff; in any case, I have got to the point of rejecting the whole sub-genre, unless a reliable reccomendation is presented.I wouldn't suggest my point of view was widely-held; "Alternate histories", as you point out, sell well.Perhaps we should start a new thread???Muttley