29-01-2002

Kree · Post by **Kree** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:14 am

Kree blows a raspberry. "Okay people. You want a relationship where the man has to abase himself before the woman will admit that maybe he had a point, fine, you go with that. Me, I really don't think it sets a very healthy pattern for a relationship where one half can't be right so long as the other half is upset. Appologies are good - by all means use them when someone is upset, but you should believe the words you speak. If you seriously feel you were being a bonehead, by all means say so, but if you honestly can't see the flaw in your belief/reasoning, stop at just an appology - Thou shalt not lie means DO NOT LIE.""Compromise, not surrender, is the key to a good relationship, and you really don't need a partner that requires you to lie to them to sooth their emotions. Any woman that demands that a man totally surrender every time he upsets her deserves exactly what she gets. News flash folks - those views and beliefs don't go away just because someone says, Gosh I'm an idiot. Can you ever forgive me? You don't fix problems by sweeping them under the rug and hoping they'll go away.""Random George, I respect a lot of what you say, but chill. Its one thing to say, 'Back off, that's my brother/sister/mother/father/etc.' I've done that myself, but its another thing to become totally and unreasonably angered by it especially if you share those same opinions. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about because I know how often I become unreasonably angry, and I end up having to appologize for it. A further note: There is no moral or ethical support for turning down an attempt at an appology, especially from someone you know is socially inept. In my book, Lily just lost the moral high ground."[This message has been edited by Kree (edited 02-04-2002).]

The JAM · Post by **The JAM** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 4:15 am

[...unWARP!!!]Good evening.Maybe that will teach Ben not to listen to anyone of the Posse from now on.So Lily is mad. But can she stay mad? Or will she forget the first kiss, his brush with death, the way he defended her when she was being trashed by whats-his-name (another reason why he prefers conservative apparel on females), his faithfulness when Merry tried to cut in, etc.?Ben, if she throws you out because of one fault (a big one, yes, but amendable), after all of the above, then dude, you deserve better. And don't listen to the Posse!!Until next time, remember:I AM THE J.A.M.Good evening.[WARP!!!]

RHJunior · Post by **RHJunior** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 4:24 am

Given, Lily's real beef is the fact that her boyfriend openly said what Lily was *afraid* guys were saying about her sister.. namely that she looks like a floozy.
Ever have a younger brother or sister or cousin do something awful, or who just behaved badly on a consistent basis? Remember how embarrassing it was for the whole family?
Having it pointed out, even accidentally, that you have failed to keep your younger siblings from screwing up can sting.And on a side note, that whole "teen slut" look... sorry. It DOES look like they forgot their "for rent" sign. Brittany Spear-chucked-thru-the-head looks, acts, dresses and sings like a bad Japanese fetish. There could scarcely be a worse role model for young girls-- and I've seen girls as young as nine or ten tarted up like her and shimmying thru the mall to her latest plastic-boobed hit.
Sorry, girls, it may be crude of guys to say the things they do,and it is wrong, but if you don't want guys talking trash about you, don't dress and act trashy.------------------

Mothspiral · Post by **Mothspiral** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 6:27 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kree:
Kree blows a raspberry. "Okay people. You want a relationship where the man has to abase himself before the woman will admit that maybe he had a point, fine, you go with that. Me, I really don't think it sets a very healthy pattern for a relationship where one half can't be right so long as the other half is upset. Appologies are good - by all means use them when someone is upset, but you should believe the words you speak. If you seriously feel you were being a bonehead, by all means say so, but if you honestly can't see the flaw in your belief/reasoning, stop at just an appology - Thou shalt not lie means DO NOT LIE.""Compromise, not surrender, is the key to a good relationship, and you really don't need a partner that requires you to lie to them to sooth their emotions. Any woman that demands that a man totally surrender every time he upsets her deserves exactly what she gets. News flash folks - those views and beliefs don't go away just because someone says, Gosh I'm an idiot. Can you ever forgive me? You don't fix problems by sweeping them under the rug and hoping they'll go away."
Here here.
------------------
Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out, and when they are let out they're usually a real pain and cause all sorts of trouble. --Chris Boucher

Kree · Post by **Kree** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 6:44 am

Kree blinks. "Okay, first order of business: Who heard me say Ben was right to criticize someone just because he didn't agree with them? Anyone? Come on, from all that talking I could swear someone must have. Now as for myself, I'm looking through what I said, and all I can find is me discussing how appologies are supposed to be given and recieved. Indeed, I never mentioned Ben and didn't mention Lily until my final sentence. I was addressing the fact that there seemed to be a strong current of belief that because a woman has become upset at a man, he is wrong, and any emotional torment heaped upon the man is just fine because 'he brought it on himself'. You know what? Wife beaters have been quoted saying the same thing of their wives. The pendulum swings both ways folks. I really wish people would learn to stop the bloody pendulum in the middle rather than swinging from one awful extreme to the other.""Yes, Ben was wrong. Yes, Ben is guilty of the holier than thou attitude. I never said he shouldn't appologize. On the other paw, let's not blow this out of proportion. Yes, his words were harmful, but not malicious because that implies intent to do harm. Intent means forethought, and Ben was not using forethought. What he was quite simply was an ordinary mortal, and thus quite fallible. He erred and that happened to hurt someone he cared for, so what was his first instinct? To try to explain that he did not mean to hurt her. As someone who does not think well on his feet and thus sometimes speaks less eloquently than he writes, I have compassion for Ben's situation even though I do not approve of his remarks. He tried in his own fumbling and inarticulate way to make things right. Yes, he did miss the point, but gee, isn't that turtle supposed to represent his intellect?""Did you ever wonder where that policy of appologize to the woman, no matter what came from? Lily is demonstrating it quite well. The assumption appears to be that since she knows why she's mad, and any number of other people can figure out why she's mad, then Ben must understand why she is mad and thus is just chosing not to appologize properly...or is it now okay to punish people for being slow in the head? That is what you are saying - he must appologize for the right offense even if he doesn't know what it is. WRONG! Noone ought to be expected to appologize for a crime they don't even know they commited - that's why in America it is required that criminals be informed of the charges against them. I would much rather have someone tell me off properly before storming off, no matter how much it makes my cheeks burn because at least then I have something to think about and know how to appologize when I realize I was wrong. Rather than explain exactly what Ben said that upset her, she would rather stew about it even though he obviously wants to make things right - that is not a fair or healthy choice for her to make on behalf of the two of them, and that is why she has lost the moral high ground.""I would say more, but I've thought better of that for several reasons. What I will say instead is that its very easy to judge other people for their mistakes, but its much harder to admit your own. Everyone who has been pointing the finger at Ben and exclaiming how wrong he is and that there is no room for compromise, remember that next time you open your mouth and stick your foot into it. Yes, justice is necessary or else you aren't likely to learn from your mistakes, but me, I hope that I am greeted with a measure of understanding and mercy as well as justice."Addendum: Don't put words in my mouth Xiane.Darn these Keenspace message boards and their sluggish response... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/tongue.gif">

UncleMonty · Post by **UncleMonty** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:05 am

In my opinion, Ben was guilty of impolite behavior. While few gentleman might think well of a girl dressed as a tart, it is wrong to insult her (especially behind her back) out loud.
The girl may well believe she looks entirely different than the man sees her. He looks at her and sees a slut, while she looks into a mirror and sees a pop star.
It is best, in my humble opinion, to leave insults unsaid - whenever possible.

Random George · Post by **Random George** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:29 am

i'm not faulting his views, his right to have them, or his right to express them. i'm faulting his execution. he had it right in the first panel of yesterday's comic. he was rude and thoughtless. he was wrong, and there is no excuse for the way he said what he said. he's a classic example of people who only feel bad about disrespecting others when it comes home to roost. i stand by my earlier words. had he been tactful and respectful of others instead of vicious and snide, lily wouldn't have had the right to get as angry as she did. had he offered an apology for what he actually did wrong, lily would have lost moral high ground for not accepting. he apologized for insulting her sister, not for being a jerk. lily seems to be more upset at his words themselves than at the fact that he said them about her sister. maybe if good old mister bruin took thirty seconds to ask himself why she got angry the way she did, and said the words she said, he might realize that she's upset because it's not ok to talk trash on others just because they're 'not your tribe'. maybe if the second phrase of the apology had not been an attempt to justify the situation and mitigate his culpability somewhat, his apology might have come off a little more sincerely. ben gets awfully touchy about being a 'good' person--awfully prickly about his own personal moral high ground. if you're a good person, you're a good person all around, not just towards people you approve of and agree with. you want to start talking about morals, remember that the rules of common courtesy and the rules of common decency apply across the board. the true measure of a man (or bear) is not in his treatment of his equals. it's in his treatment of those no one would fault him for mistreating. anyone else seen 'gone with the wind'? no one faults scarlett o'hara (and some people applaud her) for snubbing belle watling (the madam)--but malanie, who is the film's archetype for moral goodness and true gentility, accepts her help and treats her like a human being. there's a lesson there. i learned it at my mother's knee: just because someone else lives life differently from you, that doesn't make him any less worthy of respectful treatment. some people make others earn their respect. i make others earn my disrespect. ben is wrong. dead wrong. no justification. no rationalization. i actually agree with him that little sister is dressed inappropriately for her age. i don't agree with him that dressing inappropriately is proper justification for rudeness, snide comments, and judgemental behaviour. follow that train of thought far enough and make another very short mental leap, and you end up with, "well, what did she expect, dressed like that? she deserved what she got." and i think that's a leap that gets made far too often in this society. i once asked a very sweet southern boy why he treated all women as if they were made of precious gems. he said, "well, i got me a sister, and a mama. i treat ladies like i'd want someone to treat my sister or my mama. i look at a girl, and even if i don't like her much, i think, maybe that girl's somebody's sister, and she must have somethin good about her cause somebody somewhere loves her and thinks she's a good person. so i try to find that somethin about her somebody loves, and respect her for that." i think that guy's got a better handle on how to treat people than most of the other people i've ever met.geo

Xiane · Post by **Xiane** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:53 am

The problem here guys is the fact Ben IS in the wrong, there are times to agree to disagree but Ben in the last three strips or so has insulted:a) Lily's sister (cheap britney spears)
b) Lily's fashion sense (she helped with the look)
c) Lily's kinship with sister (can't help that she's your sister)
d) Their parents thoughts on the way sis dresses (the parent crack that started the whole glare from lily)Ben sort of cut the compermise ability out of this fight. Indirectly he's insulted his girlfriend by spouting his own narrow minded views. Lily didn't want an opinion in that first strip, she was gonna point out her sister...but what does ben do, proceeds to insult the "unknown" person Lily pointed out.YEah...lots of room to compermise in this arguement when it's as clear as day Ben is completely and utterly in the wrong...But to keep up that "big macho man attitude" Ben gotta make Lily take part of the blame right guys? Cause he shot his mouth off she's also at fault! <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">

Random George · Post by **Random George** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by UncleMonty:

...It is best, in my humble opinion, to leave insults unsaid - whenever possible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>hear, hear. no one was ever hurt or upset by an insult that remained unsaid, and few are ever helped by a hurtful thought given life in voice.geo

Kree · Post by **Kree** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:59 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Random George:
 hear, hear. no one was ever hurt or upset by an insult that remained unsaid, and few are ever helped by a hurtful thought given life in voice.geo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The otter nods. "That is one thing I never disputed, nor do I intend to."

Random George · Post by **Random George** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:17 am

kree--i think you misread my comments, or put words in my mouth. i never said (or thought, for that matter) that men should always buy into that "if the woman is upset, apologize until she forgives you, even if she's wrong" mentality. that's an incredibly damaging precedent to set. what i did say was that _in this case_ ben was wrong. he was further wrong when he realized that he had made a mistake and instead of a plain, sincere apology, he offered one with conditions. "i'm sorry" is invariably better than "i'm sorry and here's the reason you should think that what i did isn't really that bad" or "i'm sorry you got mad at what i did". if you have upset someone and care enough about having upset that person to apologize, that person deserves a real apology, not some half-hearted lip service based upon accepting the conditions under which it's offered. lily gave him plenty of information to understand what he had done wrong in monday's strip. and he figured it out, so obviously it couldn't have been too complex for him. too darn many people do what ben tried first: apologize for the sake of getting the other person to stop being mad at them. i don't advocate that, never have, never will. when i say that a total apology is the only way to salvage that situation, it's because the only way to remedy what was done wrong is to admit that it was unconditionally wrong. ben and lily may fight again. if they're like any other couple i know, they will. next time, it may be lily who's in the wrong totally, or there may be a shared blame requiring a compromise. don't make the mistake of simplistically applying comments directed at a specific situation to my opinions at large, or anyone else's. relationships are tricky and complex, and require a willingness to accept when you are wrong and a willingness to stand firm when you know you are right. why should a woman (or a man for that matter) accept a conditional apology when they don't think the person doing the apologizing understands what was wrong? and why should someone who is very very angry be expected to give a full and logical explanation of her reasons for being angry? if i've had a fight with a friend or a mate, and i don't understand what happened, i give it a day or two before i start jumping in and trying to justify my actions, so everybody can cool down and collect their thoughts. every interaction between two people is full of nuances and emotions. i never said that women are always right and men should always abase themselves. that would just be stupid, frankly. no party in a relationship should have to be submissive and constantly admit to wrongs they don't believe exist just to keep the other person from being mad. but likewise, no party in a relationship should tolerate justifications of reprehensible and offensive behaviour just to preserve the peace. thankfully, ben realized that it was not so much the target of the insults as their nature and delivery that was in error, and took appropriate steps to correct his mistake. now, if lily continues to huff and hold his actions against him, she will be in the wrong, and i'll switch to defending ben...just my thoughts,
geo

Kree · Post by **Kree** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 12:40 pm

Kree sighs and shakes his head. "Geo, you weren't the only one I was addressing - Xiane also replied to my first statement. Additionally, I did much explaining in my second statement about the reasoning behind my first statement and much of that had nothing to do with what you said. Apparently I wasted over two hours typing that since I still didn't make my point clear. We seem to be arguing at angles to each other. In many cases, it is not necessarily your reasoning, but rather your premises that I disagree with. For instance, at the time I wrote, it was not a foregone conclusion that Ben would indeed figure out how he had erred. Lily's refusal to enlighten him or even say, I'm not talking about this right now is where she failed. Yes, I have said that when I was too angry to articulate why I was angry, and I believe that omitting either an explanation or the promise that one will come is every bit as bad as insulting someone because it means you do not care how they feel, and that is unconditionally wrong. Now, unless there is something else that I feel interested in addressing, I believe I am done discussing this. It is a fundamentally emotional topic, and thus quite draining on an otter that wants nothing more than happiness for himself and those he meets."

Garm · Post by **Garm** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:17 am

What Ben needs to do now is to hold a veeeery low profile. If Lily is the good girl I'm sure she is she will forgive him after letting him fret for a while.
But I hope she will give him a condition, something like "keep your lethal tounge in check or It's really gonna be over." I think he needs that.And this is the golden oppurtunity for her sister to have some fun. Before Lily forgive him she could walk over to quiz him and pretend to be really hurt, just to make him sweat. It would be a great way to get even.
"Hi there. I heard you said I look like a *****. Is that true?"
She could be so evil. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">

Xiane · Post by **Xiane** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 9:20 am

I'll agree to disagree. Most women I've known in the past will react much the same way Lily would have. One simple reason behind this is trying to talk something out while pissed off. Quite simply put trying to have a discussion/arguement while one person is currently fuming never works. You're BEGGING to make the situation worse by improvising points...look at strip two of the arguement for proof. Ben tried to talk his way out of it as soon as he realized he pissed off Lily...He further added his insulting opinions.Is Lily at fault for walking off? IMO no, had Ben dug his hole any deeper he'd have had no way to salvage their relationship.
But we'll see how it turns out anyways, he found a good way to apologize to Lily...through her sister, the original one his comments would have offended. Now that he's apologized about his comments to the one they were directed at it's a level playing feild and the arguement can open on both sides and be discussed rationally without Ben constantly trying to un-insert his foot from his mouth. *Shrugs* Ben'll probably have a sermon coming in the tune of:If you have nothing good to say about someone, don't say anything.And yes people will disagree friend, it's the nature of individuals and differing view points. We're all welcome to giving our two cents worth...or two hours worth eh? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
[This message has been edited by Xiane (edited 02-07-2002).]

David Adrian · Post by **David Adrian** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 10:20 am

"Not many [people] can be totally evil. It's harder than you would think." Anyone recognize the line?Seriously, I don't think Lily's sister has it in her to torment someone like that - particularly not (1) a stranger, or (2) her sister's boyfriend, even if they're fighting at the moment. She just looks too much the part of the wide-eyed innocent. Admittedly, that can fool me (has in the past), but I don't think so in this case.Shoot, after the introduction Ben gave for himself, if Lily was silly enough to dump him, her sister might take a run at him... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif"> Crazy, but sweet.

David Adrian · Post by **David Adrian** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 7:29 am

I think we're talking to two different things here, Wolffur. You see, when I use the word "innocent", I use it as it relates to how a person acts towards others. Since my own tastes in sexual mores would tend to get me exiled from most groups, I make a point in not judging people on that basis - to me, there is no inherent contradiction in the phrase "innocent hedonist".From the little we've seen of Lily's sister, she appears to be willing to give others the benefit of the doubt, even if she's not sure about whether her sister should be dating one of them. By my lights, the fact that she's willing to think the best of others until they prove themselves unworthy (I'm assuming she forgave Ben - seems likely, or she'd have taken a harsher tone in describing the incident to Lily), marks her as an innocent.

WolfFur · Post by **WolfFur** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 10:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Adrian:
I think we're talking to two different things here, Wolffur. You see, when I use the word "innocent", I use it as it relates to how a person acts towards others. Since my own tastes in sexual mores would tend to get me exiled from most groups, I make a point in not judging people on that basis - to me, there is no inherent contradiction in the phrase "innocent hedonist".From the little we've seen of Lily's sister, she appears to be willing to give others the benefit of the doubt, even if she's not sure about whether her sister should be dating one of them. By my lights, the fact that she's willing to think the best of others until they prove themselves unworthy (I'm assuming she forgave Ben - seems likely, or she'd have taken a harsher tone in describing the incident to Lily), marks her as an innocent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I understand what you mean..."innocent" as in "Guileless." I suppose I had more of a William Blake definition in mind.I can't wait to see them together again, now that the air has been cleared and everyone knows what the relationships are. Somehow I forsee Ben taking the same big brother position he assumed with Merry. With the way she dresses, she IS likely to attract less-than-honorable intentioned attentions. (Perhaps Drezzo is due for a return? If Lily's comments on the PA didnt send him packing out of state.)I also can't wait to find out her name!

WolfFur · Post by **WolfFur** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 10:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Adrian:
Seriously, I don't think Lily's sister has it in her to torment someone like that - particularly not (1) a stranger, or (2) her sister's boyfriend, even if they're fighting at the moment. She just looks too much the part of the wide-eyed innocent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, those clothes DON'T make her look all that innocent....But I don't see her tormenting Ben either. As Lily's sister one must assume she would have some of Lily's sensitivity and compassion, and after Ben gave her such a sincere apology she wouldn't bother rubbing it in.
[This message has been edited by WolfFur (edited 02-09-2002).]

David Adrian · Post by **David Adrian** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:58 am

Ben wouldn't be the ideal one to deal with Drezzo. Imagine his reaction when he starts chatting up the cute kitten, only to look over at the counter and see Lily glaring at him, and reaching for the phone... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif">

WolfFur · Post by **WolfFur** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 10:29 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Adrian:
Ben wouldn't be the ideal one to deal with Drezzo. Imagine his reaction when he starts chatting up the cute kitten, only to look over at the counter and see Lily glaring at him, and reaching for the phone... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin ... CKQUOTE>
Hm. The only reason I could see for her reaching for the phone at that point would be to place it in a location where Drezzo would have to have it surgicly removed.