Please do.

[Itlandm]

Hmm. Imagine you live in a country where the government is appointed by some guy which most of the population don't want there and wouldn't vote for if they got the chance. But that's just the way things are, and people wait it out. Then some genius from abroad decides to try to topple the regime by heavy duty bombing, after warning them first to change their evil ways of course. Now what will happen? Will the people rise up against the government, or will they suddenly switch sides and support whoever is currently in power?

There is no need to guess. It happened, less than a year ago. This thread eloquently demonstrates the effect.

[BJ]

jdhays: Any hatred. I realise much of our counterstrike has not been motivated by hatred and actually was done very well. What I see, though, on a human level, is a "kill 'em all" attitude. It doesn't just involve anybody with moderately brown skin and a beard--my area has a large Hmong population which is constantly under attack by the white people around them. Some of my friends have been known to spout ignorate, racial slurs against them, and it's frustrating because I can't change how they think, nor can I really defend this other culture, since I'm pretty ignorant about 'em myself. I'm kind of touchy about that, and now all these people have turned against anything Islamic (does anybody know the outcome of that college who required incoming freshmen to read the Quran? I haven't been reading the paper for the past couple weeks). It's like nobody even tries to understand this other culture; even though the actions of a few radicals turn our stomachs, isn't anybody compelled to find out a little more about them?
Eh, I don't think I'm making any sense here. I'm sorry.

BunnyStompthePig: Don't get all self-conscious about your posts--I LIKE your posts! But...well... it was kind of odd reading such an amazing dissertation by someone using Pinky as their avatar. It caught me off guard.

DocMan: Thanks for being resident NitPicker--we do need one around here.

Yun: I know you were kidding; I attempted to further lighten the mood. And I think those little foam-disc-guns are neat. Let's hope Clinton ultimately turns out as well as Nixon did in the end. It might be a stretch, but we can hope. And the political nonsense will be over by monday, I promise. Maybe friday....I'm kind of getting tired of losing so much sleep.

Itlandm: I agree, and I'll reiterate that it really doens't matter who's in power; they're all about the same.

Maybe I'll go take a nap before Joey gets home....

[AntiAntagonist]

Well I read this entire thread, and I'm not really sure how much more can be said (or at least that I can add.) I know from personal experience that american tourists can be quite narrowminded. Complaints of accomodations from dullards aside, sometimes I really can't stand people who have no empathy or understanding for others' cultures. Hating chopsticks, body covering shawls, and English food are all examples that I keep hearing perpetuated. Chopsticks are easy to master if you just sit down and practice, body shawls are ok if you have a choice in not wearing them or not, and Shepherd's Pie is good!

I have met ignorant tourists and even watched a play with stereotypes of such people, as main characters no less.

As for war...hmmm. Patience is a virtue. We should not directly/indirectly target civilians who disagree with their government by using lethal force. We need to only grab/eliminate those willing to fight us. If we twitch attack everything then it will be both costly and ineffecient (loss of life included.) I think we should go ahead and protect those in the international community that we are able to, whether we are damned for it or not. I don't care if people think we should bunker behind our borders or not. WWII started before we joined in, but we could have ended it more quickly, had the public favored it.

That's as much as I wanna say for now. I could spout off on a lot american culture that I dislike, but that would take far too long.

I'll just leave with a paraphrase of an equation:
Group IQ=Dumbest Group Member's IQ/# of Group members
If you don't believe that then remember the second and third Woodstock concerts.

PS: I'm from Tennessee.

[DukeNuke]

You know, after reading all this, I dunno if I should put up my terrorist arc in my Fanfic, The Arkana Force.

Nah, I'll put it up. The terrorists in my fanfic have nothing to do with bin Laden, Hussein, or anyone else in real life. Plus, most of you probably haven't been to my site, much less read the fic, so you probably have no idea what I'm babbling about. (I think only BJ, Josh, and HBomb are the ones from this board to visit my site. Of course, nobody from this board is posting in the Andthen forums. Shame on you!)

And when I do put up the later, much, much, darker chapters (that includes a good guy going insane and is so focused upon killing this one guy that he doesn't really care what happens around him, that also includes a bad guy who would probably behead an innocent person and use the head as a beach ball [I like to make my bad guys extra evil, so readers get more satisfaction when they get their asses kicked royally by the good guys. ], and a guy who would brutally beat up anyone who opposes him, then blast them, then beat them up again. But I'm getting ahead of myself. These things probably won't hit the web until 2004 at least. Of course, with the way I'm working, probably 2010.) I expect that nobody reading will have disagreements. But the world's not perfect, and people will flame me and argue with me that what I did was terrible. Nothing they say or do will sway me from my position, but it would be a fun arguement nonetheless (and it will bring traffic to the forum!), so...uhh...yea. Lemme guess, I just turned off about 90% of the people here, huh?

And just because I have those darker moments doesn't mean the fic is going to be a super-dark series like Evangelion or whatever. In fact, there's a storyline where the gang attend a video game tournament (with DDR), another where they cosplay and attend the best anime convention ever (probably because they would actually allow the stuff shown, including a 7 foot tall robot), and one where the gang gets turned into Super Deformed Anime characters and end up lost in the city. Hilarity ensues.

--
Spubman: Defender of the Way of the Spub would like to say that everyone should live in peace and harmony! But Spubman: Defender of the Way of the Spub is a realist and knows that that will never happen due to human nature. But Spubman: Defender of the Way of the Spub is made out of Spub and is, in fact, not human, so what does he know.

[Cannonshop]

As for war...hmmm. Patience is a virtue. We should not directly/indirectly target civilians who disagree with their government by using lethal force. We need to only grab/eliminate those willing to fight us. If we twitch attack everything then it will be both costly and ineffecient (loss of life included.) I think we should go ahead and protect those in the international community that we are able to, whether we are damned for it or not. I don't care if people think we should bunker behind our borders or not. WWII started before we joined in, but we could have ended it more quickly, had the public favored it.

And how would you propose we carry out your alternative? even sending in a Special Forces team involves lethal force,(Somalia, the failed Hostage Rescue in Iran...), and, if you think you can talk some of these guys into just surrendering because you want them to, well... think again. There are simply times when the only option is to use Force. Now, as for Pell-Mell uncontrolled use of force, we had that for eight years under Clinton- a new bombing mission or half-baked deployment an average of every 2 months. Guided bombs are not Surgical, and, assassination is still a technique that is not allowed. Given the options, it is better, once things have reached the point of Violence, to carry out that violence the best you can, because half-done fighting has far worse consequences to fighting all-out, (Vietnam, the Gulf War, Korea...) including the creation of a situation where you have to maintain a military presence for an extended period of time- essentially Garrisoning somewhere you didn't want to be in the first place. There are a lot more options available before someone starts shooting, than there are after the first person dies.
Right now, we are basically without options, because the first person died back in, ohh... 1972? 73? or was it 1979? Maybe 1982? or was it in '87? We have foreborne the presence of these groups for more than 30 years, we have tolerated them, we have even tolerated them taking our people hostage and murdering them. There comes a point, when you must stop being tolerant, when you must make it cost both the Terrorists, and, their supporters. WE do not ACTIVELY target Civilians, They, on the other hand, actively hide behind and among those same civilians, in a belief that we will not fire on them, for fear of harming women and children.
If we allow human shields to stay our hands, (as we have in the past), we invite further attacks, and strengthen the resolve of these men, by creating safeholds for them.

It's a hellish decision- your enemy has made his fortress of non-combatants. His armour is made of the living bodies of children. This is the moral dilemna of the Middle East, because he will continue to strike at you, aiming for your civilians whenever possible, in the belief that you will be too squeamish to drive through that wall of innocents. Innocents he has no problem killing himself. (Nerve gas in northern Iraq, against villages...)

Okay, what're you going to do?

Under those circumstances, the choices are limited to a grotesque degree- the enemy made villagers into combat assets, but, if we kill them, do we degrade our own moral authority? Do we fight, risking the consequences, or, do we win, granting these scumbags moral authority and real power outside the reach of their borders?

In 1941, we faced this same choice. Carpet Bombing in Europe was necessary to stop the Nazi war machine, but, by bombing the cities, we were killing thousands of noncombatants in forcefully occupied lands (France, Belgium, Poland, etc.). Further, during the land-campaigns, the enemy used similar attempts, such as occupying hospitals, Churches, and, farms. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were necessary to break the power of the Tojo factions, in Japan, otherwise, we would have faced even more (individually) horrific consequences- like having soldiers coming home who'd been emotionally conditioned to shoot children. There is little choice in those circumstances- you attack with maximum force, to end the battle as quickly as possible, and, hope that enough can be salvaged when you're done to prevent a repeat of what you just did.

War is not a nice business, and, those who try to make it a nice business are ignoring the one saving grace it has: If it's horrible enough, nobody wants another one for a long, long, time.

[Jdhays]

BJ, I understand your frustration, but the people you're mad at probably had that attitude before Sep. 11th. Meanwhile, my friend, you've painted a two hundred year old egalitarian culture as a bunch of blood-thirsty goons based on the actions of a bigoted few.

Of course, I'm being touchy too. You have genuine frustration behind your opinions. Chomsky, Falwell, Ted Rall, EU bureaucrats, and dictator apologists call us killers and make crap up, in order to further their own interests.

[AntiAntagonist]

I'm not proposing "flower power". I was just reiterating that we need to try and keep peaceful civilians out of the fray as much as possible. I know that some civilians may try to help the enemy (which I think pretty much makes them an enemy anyway.) WE NEED FORCE, but we need to be prudent. People die in every single war, whether they are soldiers, peaceful civilians, or completely neutral. That doesn't give license to take the most immediate option, if you can prevent those bystanders from dying, then do it if it is within acceptable risk.

So basically: "Bonus points if you can defeat the other guy with as few civilian casualties as possible." (And yes I know that that amount is arguable, based on many given situations.) I suppose that that's a given though.

Finally, yes I know about us using carpet bombings in WWII, like Dresden Germany, where if you didn't die from the blasts and fire, you suffocated from lack of air. The fire burned for something like three days, with wind rushing in from all sides of the city towards the fire because of the immense vaccuum. Somewhere along the lines of 35,000 dead.

On the note of using comics as political soap boxes, I think that's fair game. People make the comics to spread ideas, whether or not they concern politics and real life. Just because the artist is expected to do make something, doesn't mean they have to. Sure we see a much smaller amount of sick/lazy day strips (a popular trend in online comics), but they/we wouldn't have as much fun.

[Red_Cedars]

Geography nitpick!

The District of Columbia is surrounded by Maryland on three sides, and by the Potomac River on the fourth side. The State of Virginia claims that the Potomac River is entirely in Maryland so that it doesn't have to pay for the upkeep of bridges over the Potomac.

The Pentagon is NOT in the District of Columbia! The Pentagon is in Arlington, Virginia.

Wellllll .... Doesn't that mean that, yes, the D.C. IS in fact surrounded by Maryland? Which was my only real point.

Oh, and your second paragraph I was NOT aware of (or if I was, I forgot. Sucks getting old). That explains why I couldn't find the Pentagon on MapQuest.

Thanks for the Clue,
R_C

[McCart42]

Well having just read through this thread, one thing I have to say is "cool it, everybody"...anger isn't going to solve anything. I know people get put off by things sometimes but just chill and think first. I actually thought BJ's political expression comics have been far more lighthearted than many attacks on the Bush administration that I've seen. And I'm definitely an ardent Bush supporter. Of course, I don't buy into most of the hype straight away that he's completely free of guilt from the recession, same as I don't buy the pundits that say that Clinton's free of said guilt.

Conclusion: Go ahead BJ--I think you had more to say with your political comics before you get back to the regular JF plot--go for it. I won't get upset. But everyone, just keep it above the belt (meaning constructive criticism against the other side, not blows that don't change anything).

[BanditAngel]

"The current form of American government is a Representitive Democracy."
-Doc

Last time I took history, we where called a "Republic". Not to nitpick or anything

Anyways, back on topic, I'm also not very into the whole rah-rah flag waving stuff, and I ignored pretty much every single assembly my school had too I don't think that makes me "unpatriotic" - I still support our country. It just means that I don't care to make a big deal of it.

[DukeNuke]

You know, we need some sort of humanoid alien with super powers to show up or for some people to gain super-powerful magical powers, or for some guy to gain super powers due to an experiment gone wrong. Then we wouldn't need to do any of the bombing stuff. We just send the superhero in and kick their ass.

--
Spubman: Defender of the Way of the Spub's somewhat daily Quoty-thing: "When all else fails, yell 'NI!'"

[Red_Cedars]

My brother summed it up pretty well. He went ahead and put a flag decal in the back window of his car, but underneath he added another sticker that says "This is NOT a Blindfold."

Go ahead and wave your flag, but don't be blinded by it.

R_C

[BaronGZ]

After having read this thread all day, I needed to add my US$0.02 --

As opinions go, people tend to support the government/President or not.
This is all fine and good -- what they often forget to do when criticising the actions of the government is offer a new solution.

If, as the artist's comic would suggest, the US is overly patriotic and/or commiting some criminal act -- (taking the hammer to the mosquito...)
Point it out -- then suggest how you'd fix it.

Usually, the military and President have A LOT more information about potential enemy strikes than the general public ever sees. One of their primary jobs is to guarantee the security of the country. If they are doing that badly, how would you fix it?

That is not denying that they do not have other concerns like the economy and other domestic issues. On any given day, they have to prioritize what needs attention first. Some people like how the President is handling things -- let them wave their flags. Griping about it without offering a better solution sounds like sour grapes.

If you don't have a solution to offer -- you're not helping the situation.

If you oppress national pride, eventually no one will care to stop more terrorists from striking again. At least with national pride being visible, you know that there are people who will band together when they are needed.

I agree with Jackie in the new strip: "Can we be fun again now?"

BaronGZ

[BJ]

I can't offer a solution because, as you said, the government knows much more than I do about the current situation and the options available. If they would let me know--all of it--then certainly I'd drop the comic and take a leave of absence from work to try and figure it out.

The point of griping about a situation is to try to get people to come together and maybe realise that not everything is going smoothly (the increased security at airports is ludicrous--the hijackers had all the right papers, tickets and luggage. I rather liked the air marshall idea, though).

When I decided to run strips with a political slant, I never EVER expected such an uproar--I figured a few people would agree or not and we'd all move on. Last night I was up until 2am reading hate email. But you know, alternative solution or not, at least I got a few people riled up enough to take action, even if that action was only to see how many profane words they can fit in an anonymous email message. The more opinions we get on the table, the more likely someone will make a good point that leads to a solid idea...

And today's was the last political strip. I don't know what I'll do for Friday, but at least it'll be fun again.

[BanditAngel]

I think it is a fool who does not voice his dissent merely because he can suggest nothing better. I don't know the entire situation - anything I suggest isn't going to take in to account a LOT of things. At best, I could suggest a rough plan. Even then, that isn't really going to help, because I'm not even TRYING to influence the politicians - I'm trying to influence other people.

But just because I don't know what SHOULD be done, doesn't mean I have no standing to judge that an action should NOT be taken. I can't tell you how to fix the problem of corporate corporation, but I sure as hell realize that corruption is wrong, and that it should be stopped. And if the corruption continues, it's because no one has stood up and said "This is wrong" with enough force for the people who CAN figure out what to do, for THEM to care about the issue.

And I accept that, sometimes, those in charge will make decisions I don't like, and that those decisions will be the right choice. But I will still tell them that I don't approve, so that they do not fall in to the trap of seeing such actions as accepted.

I think that we, as the people, must be forever vigilant in reminding the government what we will tolerate. While sometimes the government, with it's knowledge, will make choices we don't like, we still have to let them know that we DONT approve, so that those choices aren't made thoughtlessly, without considering if there might not be viable alternatives.

*pause* I think I just blew a little statement totally out of porportions

- BanditAngel

[ZOMBIE USER 1159]

I've always thought it was interesting how... hard it is for the american government to use it's military. How dependant it is on the peoples support. Look at how long it took to get a chance to do something about the Taliban, the disaster of Vietnam, the delay in entering WWII, the ringamarole needed to invade Iraq (I'm not sure this happened).

I also wanted to say how pleased I am at the direction this discussion thread has been taking, getting better and better as we go along. And did you see the lengths of some of those posts!

Someone brought up Isreal a bit ago, and I wondered if anyone has studied events surrounding it's creation, I remember hearing that the land was basically taken from the locals and given to the Jewish people. Is this accurate? If it is it would certainly explain the beginnings of much of the animosity there. Eeep! It's almost 3am here, I have to work in the morning! Stupid forums, no fair being fasinating reading.

[Zorlond]

Stating dissent does have valid purpose. It tells those in charge that we're not satisfied with their choices. Enough dissent, and they better start looking at other options. Or start looking for new jobs.

As for a real solution, only two rough plans come to mind. One, we go in and actively build up their economy. Technology, factories, workers, whatever it takes to bring their economical power to something closer to our own. They hate us for our riches, don't they? If we actively aid them in making their own riches, that hatred may be at least lessened. Probably unworkable (and potentially dangerous), but it's something.

Two, very obviously unworkable, would be to throw them all into ReEducation Camps and teach them how civilized people behave, that you don't hack people up for things that happened centuries ago, that you don't fight to the death over a hunk of land that has no intrinsic value whatsoever (we're talking not even grass, here), and that you don't butcher people just because you're in pain and you want them to be in pain too.

Does stating these plans help at all? Not really......

[DukeNuke]

Nobody's said anything about my post...I feel unloved

--
Spubman: Defender of the Way of the Spub will defend his stance until the bitter end, or the other side has a sudden heart attack.

[DocMan]

Geography nitpick!

The District of Columbia is surrounded by Maryland on three sides, and by the Potomac River on the fourth side. The State of Virginia claims that the Potomac River is entirely in Maryland so that it doesn't have to pay for the upkeep of bridges over the Potomac.

The Pentagon is NOT in the District of Columbia! The Pentagon is in Arlington, Virginia.

Wellllll .... Doesn't that mean that, yes, the D.C. IS in fact surrounded by Maryland? Which was my only real point.

Only if you're willing to believe whatever the State of Virginia tells you. Personally, I feel the State of Virginia is full of it and if they're going to bury their hands so VERY deeply into their taxpayer's pockets, they can at least pony up for half a bridge.

Can you tell that I live in Maryland?

Doc

[DukeNuke]

Can you tell that I live in Maryland?

You ain't the only one.

Actually, starting Saturday, I'll be living in my college dorm in Pennsylvania with a good chunk of my shirts being Orioles and Ravens shirts.

--
The Baltimore Spubs