Movies: What makes and impact with you?

[McDuffies]

I saw "Serbia, year zero" today. Yeah, it made an impact. It's a documentary about last ten years in Serbia, made by one of our best directors, Goran Markovic, and it's really moving. I believe it'd communicate with someone who didn't live in Serbia for past ten years as well, unlike most of films that king.

Incidentally, did anyone see "No man's land", last years oscar winner for foreign movie.

[Fi13r]

And they did manage to maintain the Bungie Spirit.

No, see, that's the point. They DIDN'T. The writing in Halo's solo game is sub-par. That's it. That's what's important from a Bungie game, as far as I'm concerned. The integration of the most excellent writing in the genre with entertaining, excellent gameplay. No matter HOW well it fulfills one, if it's missing the other, then as far as I'm concerned, there's a problem. Even "slightly above average" writing by the standards of the majority of shooters is WELL below average by the standards of Bungie Software.

I had a feeling it was going to fail to impress me, based on the quality I expected from them, the moment the first screenshot containing a "Fishin' Bob" hit the web. And the game confirmed my feelings.

Really, compare the depth and the amount of material in Halo's story to that of the first Marathon alone. The difference is staggering and highly disappointing. From the get-go, the game has problems like this, such as frequently-occuring aliens speaking English for no reason. Frequently occuring... I could see Bungie Software doing this as a joke with some obscure alien you don't see much of, but not a core alien. With a core alien, it's not funny, and it doesn't add anything to the story or the solo game on its own. "Well, Master Chief has a universal translator" or whatever... no. Not good enough. Bungie Software would've explained that and would've at least HINTED at a highly developed mythos (that would be fully fleshed out in a sequel, if not earlier) behind it without resorting to lame, overused explanations. Perhaps I missed something, but Bungie Studios didn't seem to drop any such hints.

By itself, this wouldn't be such a big deal (after all, maybe I just missed some explanation or something), but this kind of thing continues on, with the writing they DO have seeming like a tired retread of a lot of the writing in Marathon, until the very end where you have that stupid "race." Races only belong in two kinds of solo video games: Racing games, and humorous ones like Earthworm Jim 2. They're just dumb and an uninspired, tacked-on climax, otherwise.

Then of course they have the characters at the end EXPLICITLY STATE the continuation of the game in a sequel, by saying something like "I have a feeling this is only the beginning." THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING?! I expect that kind of cliche from ID, not from Bungie. This probably summed up what has changed better than any other single statement from the game. As I said on another forum elsewhere, they may as well have slapped the words "To be continued" over a still of the final scene while an announcer says, "Halo will be back in Halo II: The Search For More Money!"

True, when you make a game with a story like Marathon, I guess you do set your writing standards SO high that you have nowhere to go but down (Bungie's track record since Marathon seems to verify this... the Myth seres was pretty good and somewhat interesting, but the writing was nowhere near as impressive as Marathon, Weekend Warrior SUCKED, Oni was disappointing following all its hype and the lack of network play SUCKED, and Halo was a little better in terms of writing, but not as good as either Myth 1 or 2... in other words, their writing is gradually regressing), but that's no excuse. The solo story from a fast-paced sci-fi shooter? This is what Bungie has HONED to a CRAFT finer than ANY OTHER company in the industry, the most stand-out aspect of any of their products. It didn't have to be as good as Marathon, but it should've at least been CLOSE, and better than Myth! But they fumbled the skull. Somebody who was in the company before and has since left must've stolen the bacon. I have a feeling it was Greg Kirkpatrick, but since Double Aught folded, we'll never know.

And I don't care about those stupid novels they commissioned from hack writers for the same reasons I wouldn't read novels based on a TV show or a movie, even if I LIKED the TV show or movie in question, for the above-mentioned reason regarding the integration of the the vast, complex story WITH the gameplay. WITH IT, TOGETHER, not "on the side." If I want to read a good science-fiction novel, I'll pick up PKD or Heinlein or something like that; I'd have to be an IDIOT to pick up a book based on a video-game, and go, "Yeah, this is the best thing I can read right now!" I play a videogame, with this in mind, expecting that combination. It doesn't matter how much of the "backstory that's supposedly more complex than what's discussed in the game is" is revealed by the novels. It's outside of the game, so Halo's writers were obviously too lazy/didn't care enough to make the effort to weave it into the game or write it in a compelling fashion THEMSELVES, so I don't care enough to make the effort to seek it out. Seems like little more than a marketing tie-in to me, really, and this is probably exactly how Microsoft thinks of it. To borrow some more Spaceballs references, what's next? "Halo the Breakfast Cereal"? "Halo the Lunchbox"? "Halo the Flamethrower"?? Talking Master Chief dolls that say phrases like, "I have a feeling this is only the beginning," and "Lone Starr, you must master the Schwarz"?

Most importantly, the old Bungie wouldn't've tortured anyone with that stupid robot. Ending the game with a race is bad enough, but that guy was just salt in the WOUND.

[Sippan]

And they did manage to maintain the Bungie Spirit.

No, see, that's the point. They DIDN'T. The writing in Halo's solo game is sub-par. That's it. That's what's important from a Bungie game, as far as I'm concerned. The integration of the most excellent writing in the genre with entertaining, excellent gameplay. No matter HOW well it fulfills one, if it's missing the other, then as far as I'm concerned, there's a problem. Even "slightly above average" writing by the standards of the majority of shooters is WELL below average by the standards of Bungie Software.

I had a feeling it was going to fail to impress me, based on the quality I expected from them, the moment the first screenshot containing a "Fishin' Bob" hit the web. And the game confirmed my feelings.

Really, compare the depth and the amount of material in Halo's story to that of the first Marathon alone. The difference is staggering and highly disappointing.

But seriously, you can't expect anyone, even Bungie, to ever get even close to Marathon in terms of depth of story. It's literally impossible and it was impossible even the first time they did it, God knows how they do their thing.

From the get-go, the game has problems like this, such as frequently-occuring aliens speaking English for no reason. Frequently occuring... I could see Bungie Software doing this as a joke with some obscure alien you don't see much of, but not a core alien. With a core alien, it's not funny, and it doesn't add anything to the story or the solo game on its own. "Well, Master Chief has a universal translator" or whatever... no. Not good enough. Bungie Software would've explained that and would've at least HINTED at a highly developed mythos (that would be fully fleshed out in a sequel, if not earlier) behind it without resorting to lame, overused explanations. Perhaps I missed something, but Bungie Studios didn't seem to drop any such hints.

I think you missed something... I got the feeling there was quite an iceberg of story under the little tip that was Halo. I reckon Bungie has awesome things waiting in the shadows. But I do agree that Halo showed too little. You didn't have to strain yourself to see that Marathon was HUGE. Even a closer look at Halo reveals nothing more than an ordinary eartlings vs spacemen plot. But I promise you, there is depth in there, it just hasn't been discovered yet. New things are still being found in Marathon 10 years after the release, don't expect Halo to fold itself out after just a year or two

By itself, this wouldn't be such a big deal (after all, maybe I just missed some explanation or something), but this kind of thing continues on, with the writing they DO have seeming like a tired retread of a lot of the writing in Marathon, until the very end where you have that stupid "race." Races only belong in two kinds of solo video games: Racing games, and humorous ones like Earthworm Jim 2. They're just dumb and an uninspired, tacked-on climax, otherwise.

Then of course they have the characters at the end EXPLICITLY STATE the continuation of the game in a sequel, by saying something like "I have a feeling this is only the beginning." THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING?! I expect that kind of cliche from ID, not from Bungie. This probably summed up what has changed better than any other single statement from the game. As I said on another forum elsewhere, they may as well have slapped the words "To be continued" over a still of the final scene while an announcer says, "Halo will be back in Halo II: The Search For More Money!"

But that's because Marathon was a full game that could have ended right there. Halo isn't. And it's not Bungie's fault. Microsoft pushed them to get Halo finished in time, to they had to scrap a LOT of stuff. Only half of the 20 levels made it into the game. That's another reason why it seems so shallow. This time they have heaps of cash and no deadline, they can give us what we love about them.

If they go on to make Halo 3, however - then everyone has the right to be pissed and I will be too.

True, when you make a game with a story like Marathon, I guess you do set your writing standards SO high that you have nowhere to go but down (Bungie's track record since Marathon seems to verify this... the Myth seres was pretty good and somewhat interesting, but the writing was nowhere near as impressive as Marathon, Weekend Warrior SUCKED, Oni was disappointing following all its hype and the lack of network play SUCKED, and Halo was a little better in terms of writing, but not as good as either Myth 1 or 2... in other words, their writing is gradually regressing), but that's no excuse. The solo story from a fast-paced sci-fi shooter? This is what Bungie has HONED to a CRAFT finer than ANY OTHER company in the industry, the most stand-out aspect of any of their products. It didn't have to be as good as Marathon, but it should've at least been CLOSE, and better than Myth! But they fumbled the skull. Somebody who was in the company before and has since left must've stolen the bacon. I have a feeling it was Greg Kirkpatrick, but since Double Aught folded, we'll never know.

Weekend Warrior was hardly even a Bungie game. Oni was made by a smaller branch of Bungie...although it certainly could have been better

And you can't deny that even if it's not Marathon, Halo *is* pretty high above other companies' games.

And I don't care about those stupid novels they commissioned from hack writers for the same reasons I wouldn't read novels based on a TV show or a movie, even if I LIKED the TV show or movie in question, for the above-mentioned reason regarding the integration of the the vast, complex story WITH the gameplay. WITH IT, TOGETHER, not "on the side." If I want to read a good science-fiction novel, I'll pick up PKD or Heinlein or something like that; I'd have to be an IDIOT to pick up a book based on a video-game, and go, "Yeah, this is the best thing I can read right now!" I play a videogame, with this in mind, expecting that combination. It doesn't matter how much of the "backstory that's supposedly more complex than what's discussed in the game is" is revealed by the novels. It's outside of the game, so Halo's writers were obviously too lazy/didn't care enough to make the effort to weave it into the game or write it in a compelling fashion THEMSELVES, so I don't care enough to make the effort to seek it out.

As I said, they had no choice but to leave it out since they had very limited time. I mean... Imagine planning to spread the story out over 20 levels, only to realize when it's too late that you'll only have time to make 10. It's impossible to not leave a lot out.

Seems like little more than a marketing tie-in to me, really, and this is probably exactly how Microsoft thinks of it. To borrow some more Spaceballs references, what's next? "Halo the Breakfast Cereal"? "Halo the Lunchbox"? "Halo the Flamethrower"?? Talking Master Chief dolls that say phrases like, "I have a feeling this is only the beginning," and "Lone Starr, you must master the Schwarz"?

Most importantly, the old Bungie wouldn't've tortured anyone with that stupid robot. Ending the game with a race is bad enough, but that guy was just salt in the WOUND.

I found the race pretty fun. As for 343GS, he's no more annoying than Durandal, it's just that you have to listen to his voice...that and the fact that the level is 2 rooms over and over and over and over and over and over again. But once again, it was supposed to be more interesting but...

As always, only Microsoft are to blame. And that will become obvious when Halo 2, the game made without Microsoft's restraints, is released.

[Fi13r]

Really, compare the depth and the amount of material in Halo's story to that of the first Marathon alone. The difference is staggering and highly disappointing.

But seriously, you can't expect anyone, even Bungie, to ever get even close to Marathon in terms of depth of story. It's literally impossible and it was impossible even the first time they did it, God knows how they do their thing.

Covered this, and I don't think it's unreasonable to have the expectation for them to give at least the same appearance of EFFORT.

I got the impression from Halo that I get from a lot of shooters: If I was being paid to make this (especially to the rumored tune of tens of millions of dollars), and had a TEAM of friends and fellow writers working with me, I could write a better story. Like you say later in your reply, Halo's story is little more than a humans-versus-aliens standard. They didn't even put a particularly unique spin (me, I would like to see a shooter where the HUMANS are the imperialists, personally... Heinlein did that a lot in his fiction, and it would've been neat to see that Starship Troopers movie address this point, but instead, Paul Verhoven unsurprsingly completely missed the point of the story and seemed to actually be GLORIFYING facism) or style on it this time. They certainly didn't put millions of dollars worth of effort into it. Remember, I'm not talking about the engine or the gameplay. I'm talking about the creative aspects of the game alone.

I think you missed something....

Okay. What did I miss? Why were there aliens speaking English, from the very beginning of the game? What hints did they drop? Remember, cliched explanations like Universal Translators aren't enough.

Marathon would've at least dropped hints. Myth probably would have, too. Halo, to my memory, did not. Personally, I can't even believe they missed such a glaring omission.

I got the feeling there was quite an iceberg of story under the little tip that was Halo.

There was. And they used it to make those novels, instead of including it in the game. That may be good enough for the dumb majority, but not for me.

I think when you're a real fan of someone, you're enough of one to tell them when they're doing something wrong and stick to your guns, regardless of how much you liked earlier stuff they did. I know what Bungie's people are capable of, or at least, what they WERE capable of, and I care enough about that to ignore them until they try to live up to that expectation again. Tough love.

I reckon Bungie has awesome things waiting in the shadows. But I do agree that Halo showed too little. You didn't have to strain yourself to see that Marathon was HUGE. Even a closer look at Halo reveals nothing more than an ordinary eartlings vs spacemen plot. But I promise you, there is depth in there, it just hasn't been discovered yet.

Promises, promises. "Keep coming back, we'll do better next time," is a lax attitude, because there's ALWAYS going to be a "next time." They should've done it the first time, and if Microsoft was going to be a restriction, they shouldn't've sold themselves into a golden cage. Besides, if Microsoft was a restriction once, what assurance do I have that they won't continue to be? I certainly don't have anything material to go on, and phantom promises are meaningless.

"Next time" I'll be looking for a new company that cares enough to do things right the FIRST time, like Bungie used to.

New things are still being found in Marathon 10 years after the release, don't expect Halo to fold itself out after just a year or two

Indeed. Because there probably isn't even a year's worth of evidenced material to discover.

But that's because Marathon was a full game that could have ended right there. Halo isn't.

The point is that it's a shallow cliche, one they shouldn't've even had to resort to in a PINCH. But they did. They had the choice to use something a little more creative, and it wouldn't've taken any more time to do so, and they didn't. There's no one to blame but the people on the creative end. And that kind of B-performance where it felt like they could've come up with something better, but instead used something tired and overdone that's been done all over the science-fiction spectrum a million times, is everywhere.

And it's not Bungie's fault. Microsoft pushed them to get Halo finished in time, to they had to scrap a LOT of stuff

Excuses, excuses. See my above comment about the golden cage.

They knew what they were getting into. They took money over creative freedom. They released a statement shortly after Microsoft bought them that basically served as a big FU to all the people who were publicly worried about the creative aspects of their games being limited and damaged by Microsoft (Something like, "We are first and foremost a business, so we don't care what any of you think as long as we're getting paid"). I have no respect for that attitude.

Only half of the 20 levels made it into the game.

This does the opposite of absolving them of blame.

That's another reason why it seems so shallow. This time they have heaps of cash

The heaps of cash seem to be part of the problem, from where I'm standing. They're burying Bungie's creativity rather than fueling it.

and no deadline, they can give us what we love about them.

And what material evidence is this based on? Excuses and assurances aren't enough. Everything they've done with Halo 1 (including giving it the retarded subtitle, "Combat Evolved," which it really doesn't even live up to) has been contrary evidence.

First impressions are everything.

If they go on to make Halo 3, however - then everyone has the right to be pissed and I will be too.

Well, while you may not be consciously aware of the problem, you at least seem to be SUBconsciously aware of it.

The thing is, if they'd lived up to their expectations and the hype they gave Halo (it fulfilled neither), another trilogy would be totally welcome, I think. But even sensible apologists can already tell the material's JUST NOT THERE.

The only way to force Bungie to live up to their old reputation again is for people to inform them with their wallets, unfortunately. And that's not going to happen, because they've already ensnared more than enough dumb people who are impressed by "graphics" and little else (you know, the kinds of people who trick out their computers like cars from The Fast And The Furious). So it's already a lost cause.

The only chance the former fans of the company's creative side had to make a difference was early on, but instead, most were spineless sheep, saying stuff like "Oh, it'll be fine," and salivating over whatever the latest screenshot was. And they blew it. It's too late now. I don't just blame Bungie for sucking, I blame their veteran fans who continue to LET THEM suck. Those of us with dignity moved on a long time ago, and regard Halo as a somewhat amusing multiplayer game, but just another member of the crowd who doesn't stand out when it comes to everything else. And for me, that's not good enough to justify spending money on it.

Weekend Warrior was hardly even a Bungie game.

Yeah, I only included it for the purposes of completeness.

Oni was made by a smaller branch of Bungie...although it certainly could have been better

Oni turned out to be a fairly good indicator of the New Bungie, actually: Hype some aspect of your latest game up, then don't deliver on that hype, promising things will be better "next time." Lather, rinse, repeat. Consumers are too stupid to get tired of it after a while and just leave. But then Bungie is "first and foremost a business." Screw quality and screw the fans, as long as you can bank on it, it's all good!

And you can't deny that even if it's not Marathon, Halo *is* pretty high above other companies' games.

Depends on which you mean. Saying it's better than most shooters is like saying any other Presidential candidate is smarter than George W. Bush. Sure, it's technically a compliment, but it sure as hell doesn't mean much.

I felt Halo's writing was WAY below Half-Life's, even, which is why I'm still embittered over the way Sierra cancelled the Mac port of that for no good reason.

"Better than average" does not necessarily imply "good."

In any case, I don't think they had any business marketing Halo as "From the company that made Marathon," as they did. All that does is tarnish Marathon's name.

As I said, they had no choice but to leave it out since they had very limited time. I mean... Imagine planning to spread the story out over 20 levels, only to realize when it's too late that you'll only have time to make 10. It's impossible to not leave a lot out.

This is the VERY DEFINITION OF THE TERM "SELL-OUT!"

If they knew this was going to be a problem (and, come on, you don't go into any business relationship with Microsoft not expecting problems like this), WHY do it?!

Those rumors that they were going to go out of business otherwise are false, so there was no danger that they weren't going to be able to finish the game. It would've come out, and they would've made plenty of money to cover costs and make a profit, and they would've avoided these unnecessary restrictions, AND THE GAME WOULD'VE BEEN BETTER. It might've taken a little bit longer to be released, but, ironically, it probably would've been available on the Mac and Windows earlier than it was. It certainly would've been available on the Mac sooner. Talk about a slap in the face. We get an inferior game AND we get it later than we would've gotten it otherwise. I don't take kindly to that kind of treatment, and anyone else who does is stupid.

The reason is selfishness and greed, pure and simple. Calvin put it best, "Raise the ante high enough and there

[McDuffies]

Wow! Half-page long post!

[Sippan]

Oh well... It's sad that you feel that way and I assume you'd say the same about me, but as usual none of us are going to convince the other of anything

At least we both agree that Marathon is the best game ever

[Fi13r]

Oh well... It's sad that you feel that way and I assume you'd say the same about me, but as usual none of us are going to convince the other of anything

Well, eventually you'll get tired of being kicked to the curb by them in favor of More Money(TM). You seem to be too smart to be continually hooked back by flashy whiz-bang graphics, unlike most gamers (or movie-goers *cough*TheMatrix*coughcoughcough*).

[Mr.Bob]

*cough*TheMatrix*coughcoughcough*)

*SNEEZE* *HACK* *COUGH* *CHOKE*

[Mooman]

Cover your mouth, plague-bearer!!

[DGC]

I'd have to say that Bungie's Myth Series was my all-time favorite from that company. There was just such a gloomy hopelessness to the entire thing. You'd battle through impossible odds only to end up outnumbered and surrounded in the next level. Myth II had better gameplay, but it felt like you had the upper hand a lot of the time and it wasn't such an against-all-odds fight.

[Bright spark]

Cover your mouth, plague-bearer!!

I think we'll have to put this thread in Quarantine, we might all get infected.

...Oh, god, it's starting.

[Sippan]

I'd have to say that Bungie's Myth Series was my all-time favorite from that company.

Then you didn't play Marathon? =)

[YarpsDat]

[...]
"Halo will be back in Halo II: The Search For More Money!"
[...]

Or Halo: Director's Cut.

[McDuffies]

Oh no, I feel it comming! Cough cough Haaaack!

[KittyKatBlack]

Didn't Bungie used to be Bullfrog? Or am I thinking of someone else? Bullfrog used to make cool games.

[Fi13r]

Didn't Bungie used to be Bullfrog?

No.

[Okie]

Syndicate was Bullfrog's Greatest Game.

[LAGtheNoggin]

Didn't Bungie used to be Bullfrog? Or am I thinking of someone else? Bullfrog used to make cool games.

Bullfrog are/were Guildford, England based. Bungie are currently in Redmond, United States.

Also note Bullfrog were eaten alive some years ago by Electronic Arts and currently no trace of their existence, uh, exists. A lot of them left after they sold, Peter Molyneux (who got a lot of money from the sale to EA) went off to make Lionhead studios and some others went and made Mucky Foot Prodcutions (which disbanded a few months ago) responsible for Startopia and some other game I forget, Startopia's great fun! - Sold badly though.

Anywho, the games industry is volatile, many people would kill for a safe backing like Microsoft. I would.

[KittyKatBlack]

Ah. Electronic Arts. That's who I was thinking of.

[Fi13r]

Anywho, the games industry is volatile, many people would kill for a safe backing like Microsoft. I would.

Many people would kill instead of compromising their creativity though, too.