Take that pretentious documentary about webcomics

TheGoobla · Post by **TheGoobla** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:42 am

Ida wrote:What documentary?

The one about Penny Arcade trashing hippies.

What else could we possibly be talking about?

Mvmarcz · Post by **Mvmarcz** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:29 am

TheGoobla wrote:It's a good thing you've all seen this documentary and have told me what to think of it. Otherwise, I may have had to watch it myself and form an independent opinion.

You can think whatever you want to think. I think documentaries are over rated and I also don't give a flying hong kong phooey what the guys at penny arcade think

TheGoobla · Post by **TheGoobla** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:36 am

Over rated, you say? Perhaps! But the important thing is that we're the ones doing the rating.

Col · Post by **Col** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:42 am

Scott McCloud makes a good point, especially at the very end there.

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:55 am

Honestly, I don't buy the "being mean" as a solid argument (although it can be a factor) and I honestly don't buy the "the man is out to get us argument" either (I actually approve of editors) and I have no idea what the point of making a documentary about webcomic is gonna do, but if it's true about the thing about Penny-Arcade ignoring the documentery people, and then feeling insulted when it appears without them, then ok, that's not very nice.

The Neko · Post by **The Neko** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:51 am

I'm all for bashing pretentious bullshit, but I haven't seen the preview yet, nor do I care to. So I can't make any judgements on the film itself. It's just amazing how much internet drama comes out of the webcomics community. WHO FUCKIN' CARES?! It's the internet. It is easily ignored. Even then, it honestly didn't seem that insulting to begin with. Jeezus. People need to find better uses of their time than get riled up over a "he said/she said" debacle.

Mr.Bob · Post by **Mr.Bob** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:10 pm

Col wrote:Scott McCloud makes a good point, especially at the very end there.

He's promoting skull plushies! Man he looks old. Also, why isn't he wearing a red shirt and a green coat??? I'm disillusioned!

Col · Post by **Col** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:32 pm

Mr.Bob wrote:
Col wrote:Scott McCloud makes a good point, especially at the very end there.
He's promoting skull plushies! Man he looks old. Also, why isn't he wearing a red shirt and a green coat??? I'm disillusioned!

OH, THE HUMANITY!!!

Steverules · Post by **Steverules** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:43 pm

The Neko wrote:I'm all for bashing pretentious bullshit, but I haven't seen the preview yet, nor do I care to. So I can't make any judgements on the film itself. It's just amazing how much internet drama comes out of the webcomics community. WHO FUCKIN' CARES?! It's the internet. It is easily ignored. Even then, it honestly didn't seem that insulting to begin with. Jeezus. People need to find better uses of their time than get riled up over a "he said/she said" debacle.

I agree.

TheGoobla · Post by **TheGoobla** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:26 pm

Phalanx wrote:I honestly don't buy the "the man is out to get us argument" either

It's rather interesting people comment about that, seeing as how I've never, in the entirety of passively observing webcomic politics, heard anyone actually hold a position like that. I've heard that position reiterated a lot by people who don't hold it, however. Which seems largely to indicate that it is a childish strawman more then anything else. But what can you do about the memes, eh.

It's sort of like the Propaganda Model. It's a fairly reasonable and common sensical observation about the effect of institutional pressures, but invariably there are those who misinterpret it as "conspiratorial" to mock it, without actually positing an argument. Likewise, there are certain artists who greatly value creative control, and don't appreciate the needless (yes, needless) institutional pressures which deprive them of that control, which is easy to understand. It's a very human impulse which we all possess. It's easy to understand why these sorts of individuals value the webcomics medium, especially given the success its had for some artists.

Some folks also simply take their artform seriously. Probably because their damn good artists. I don't see why it makes any sense to denounce them as "pretentious" or whatever. Whenever KeenSpace is dumped on as a host of newbish crap, we're always quick to rush to our defence. Are we pretentious because we believe there are good artists on 'Space? When adult webcomickers are disregarded as "pornographers", is it pretentious of them to defend their artwork as something more? Does it make one pretentious to appreciate the finer points of an artform? I for one don't think so.

At the heart of it I suppose, differences of opinion like this don't bother me either. So some artists view this as a mere hobby, while others take it rather seriously, while still others like to reinvent and innovate. How any one of those particular sorts of artists could possibly bother me to the extent that I must publically denounce them, is something I don't quite understand. Some serious artists occasionally denounce hobbyists who claim webcomics is nothing but a hobby, while hobbyists occasionally denounce the ones who believe its a serious medium. This is all absurdly childish for a difference of opinion. I simply don't understand the needlessly partisan nature of the webcomics community.

So someone made a documentary about webcomics. It looks like a rather low budget, amateurish one to boot. But it also looks intriguing. They probably did it because their interested in comics, its their passion. How on earth does this cause me harm? How does it make them assholes? It doesn't, but that doesn't stop certain people from blathering and raving as if it does. If you like the documentary, fine. If not, fine again. What is this debate over, exactly? It's about nothing. We're arguing over nothing.

Gabe wrote:One of my favorite things is to see a forum thread about a PA comic strip with people arguing for pages about whatever topic we mentioned that day.

This, in addition to other comments they've made, can only lead one to the conclusion they have enormous egos, carefully covered in a thick delicious layer of arrogance. We go to great pains to consistently overlook that fact, as has been apparently indicated by people on these fora. I'll also overlook the fact they have big egos. That's not a crime and I don't imply it is. I'll also somewhat overlook the glaring hypocrisy of their rant. However, given these things, I do want to know: why are we, especially the PA guys, all dumping on a harmless little documentary about webcomics? Especially considering no one's seen it?

Why exactly are we getting so vitriolic because one particular group of people are taking their artwork seriously? This is all a waste of our damn time. Let's move on and stop acting like a bunch of "anti-pretentious" jerks.

Well, that's fulfills my long-winded post quota. Be well!

Ida · Post by **Ida** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:29 pm

Goobla: You say it, man!

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:44 pm

I think at one point, the "The Man" school of belief/thought was very real. I remember, back a few years ago (1999? 2000?) Scott Kurtz's "The Comix" (Matrix Spoof) was based on it. Interesting to see his thoughts have changed a few years down the line.

I also ran into another example of this when doing the feminism issue for Comixpedia. You don't see so much of it in webcomics, but there were quite a number of believers in " we must fight against the man" (or should I say "the men").

I wouldn't say it was a phantom cause, but to me it seems to be a severely outdated one.

Can't deny we're wasting time on it though. *goes back to colouring*

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:37 pm

I don't get that. ANYONE can make a webcomic; regardless of gender, income, or talent.

Mvmarcz · Post by **Mvmarcz** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:42 pm

which is exactly why I say a documentary on them is pointless

Kirb · Post by **Kirb** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:49 pm

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Levi-chan · Post by **Levi-chan** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:37 pm

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Jen_Babcock · Post by **Jen_Babcock** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:15 am

I haven't seen this trailer, but I doubt this documentary will bring anything new to the table. That said, I certainly don't feel threatened by it, nor care all too much about what it has to say.

I know two things I am sure of though:

1) I'm glad that people are passionate enough about comics to make a documentary

2) I disagree with a lot of what Scott McCloud has to say, and I do get the sense that a lot of people kiss his ass too much.

But to each his own. I don't want to get in a debate about it.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:17 am

Ida wrote:Goobla: You say it, man!

True. I don't like when people like to talk about their work and explain it too much instead of letting work speak for itself, I don't like when they reat too much into it and see things that noone else can see, I don't like when people wrap up statements into big words when it could've been said simpler, but I don't see anything wrong in desiring to make art.
If you like funny comics, you'll want to make funny comics. It your taste least to more artsy stuff, you'll want to make more artsy stuff. It's logical, I don't see anything pretentious about it.

Honestly, I don't buy the "being mean" as a solid argument (although it can be a factor) and I honestly don't buy the "the man is out to get us argument" either (I actually approve of editors)

Well, there are two sides of it too, but you have to bear in mind that one of those sides is american comic book editors who know next to nothing about comics and yet like to give advices to much more skilled people. Think of editors who, when presented with original pages, actually draw with red marker on right them to show artist what they think should've been done with them. Now tell me, how would you feel if someone drew circles and arrows with red (unerasable) marker on the original of your finished page. Not ever editor is like Mosshunter or T.
Of course, some people go too far with it making it a kind of conspiracy theory but then again, that's not the reason to go to the other extreme.

BrownEyedCat · Post by **BrownEyedCat** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:31 am

What I think is ironic about the situation is that I consider the very people interviewed to BE 'The Man' of webcomics. In a sense.

They're the ones who occasionally say that if you aren't trying to broaden to scope of comics as an artistic of electronic medium, then you have no real place in it, and look down on hobbyists like me, and say other well-intentioned things that make me feel bad.

Col · Post by **Col** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:41 pm

mcDuffies wrote:...Now tell me, how would you feel if someone drew circles and arrows with red (unerasable) marker on the original of your finished page...

I think they mark up photocopies, and not the original art. At least, here in America. Otherwise, they'd have to wait forever for the art to get to their office, and then to return that art to the penciller, and wait for them to get that done. Nowadays, it's done with faxes, emails, and copies, so that they can mark 'em up, and then the artist can go back to the original and fix it without having to start all over again.