So, KeenSPACE is getting a name change on Monday.

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:00 am

If you have Mac OS X, don't forget it runs on a Unix shell, so technically you could do a multi-find-and-replace with the Unix sed command in Terminal.

Glarryg · Post by **Glarryg** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:02 am

Well, great. I just started KeenSwim; now what am I supposed to call it?

Glarryg

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:23 am

SwimKeen!

Wrightc · Post by **Wrightc** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:43 am

I'm torn between amusement and annoyance at the way Ghastly likes to play up this "us vs. them" thing -- as if Keenspot, as a whole, rose up as one in order to smack down that "uppity Keenspace group."

Because really... that's utterly stupid.

People have been talking about the name change for *years*. You know why it took years? Because there were plenty of us who didn't really see a problem with it.

And for those who *did* see a problem with it -- it had nothing whatsoever to do with anyone on Keenspace who actively publishes a comic. No, it was the people who started a comic, published three times, and then just stopped updating... they were the problem.

And the case that was made, for the record, was that the confusion hurt BOTH Keenspot AND Keenspace.

Keenspot advertises itself as a comic collective. It advertises Keenspace as a free service for anyone who wants to publish a webcomic. The expectations for both are vastly different, and if you start thinking that one is the other, well, you have problems.

A free service for anyone who wants to publish a webcomic is going to have people who publish once and walk away forever. It's also going to have good, regularly-updated comics. And when you look at the service as exactly that, then the presence of one does not, in any way, hurt the other. No-one will think that Ghastly's Ghastly Comic sucks because The Amazing Adventures of Fart-Boy and Mr. Zippo has all of two comics in it's archive, both from 2001. Why? Because with a *service* you will find a wide range of quality.

Obviously, the people who have formed the Keenspace *community* care a lot more about quality than the people who updated twice and wandered away forever. But the truth of the matter is, the people who updated twice and wandered away forever are (or were, at one point) a large portion of Keenspace -- they weren't Spacers, they were just accounts... taking up... er... space.

But the problem, at least as championed by people who wanted the name changed, was that a lot of people seemed to think:

- that Keenspot and Keenspace were the same thing, or
- that Keenspace was the "minor leagues" for Keenspot

And so the confusion was that people stopped thinking of Keenspace as a service where cartoonists could build their own community and have access to tools and hosting for their comic -- instead, they saw it as an extension of Keenspot.

And, therefore, it gave the impression that the two-updates-and-then-they're-gone comics were "official Keenspot products."

And yes, even as someone who liked the similarities between the names I have to admit that such a thing made us look bad. This is the "stench" that Ghastly is talking about, but I'd like to point out that this "stench" doesn't just affect us -- it also affects the Spacers that actually do the work... and if affects you because Keenspace was not being viewed as a service that is free to anyone who wants to sign up.

There are plenty of things to criticize about Keenspot that are legitimate complaints without resorting to accuastions that we are somehow an elitist clique trying to stomp our foot down on the back of your collective necks. The people I have heard complaining about Keenspace have *never* complained about you guys who actually *do things*.

And in my opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing two comics and walking away from it forever. The idea of free hosting is that you should be allowed to give it a try, run on enthusiasm if you want, and then stop if you decide it's not for you. The problem is if people start thinking "oh, well, this is what Keenspot considers professional behavior then" (well, some could argue that it *is* what we consider professional behavior, but that's another discussion). And that mindset leads people to think that *everything* on Keenspace is sketchy.

I can quite understand if people are pissed about the name change, but I wanted to defend my fellow Keenspotters from the implications and accusations that we think you guys suck. Hell, I'm sure there is probably someone who does -- then again, I know there are people here who think the same thing in the other direction -- but there is no cultural, systemic bias against Keenspace.

Claiming there is might be a convenient rhetorical device to rely on when you're framing arguments and trying to win supporters, but it's just not true.

PinDummy · Post by **PinDummy** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:47 am

wrightc wrote:Huge retort

There was no need for that, the issue has settled now. Let sleeping dogs lie.

Post by **STrRedWolf** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:21 am

Okay, I'm shooting Steve Troup. He started to blab but didn't release the full name.

But yes, we're retaining the name "SPACE". That means I got to bust my ass and put up a new !*)@#( design ASAP. Damnit, can't I get more time! And why wasn't I notified that we were going to change it in MAY when the 5 year anniversiry is in JUNE?!?

Chris Crosby wrote:6 of the Top 10 most popular comics on KeenSPOT are comics by creators that started on 'SPACE. That alone says more than enough about the talent that 'SPACE is capable of.

If The Keen Four did not respect 'SPACE and realize that it is an important part of our business, we would be even stupider and crazier than we are frequently made out to be by you kind folks.

I'm not feeling the love as an admin, Chris (and you just opened the door). It's recently taken me more than a month to get Nate to talk to me (after repeated calling his cell phone) in order to do a simple task that would help me immensely, and he STILL hasn't done it!!! Darren promised me we (Kisai and I) would be involved in the decision, but the email was very sudden and I've had to tall Teri to express my lividity over how communications between us and the Keen Four have devolved.

Now I got to shelve getting PREMIUM working so I can change 6000+ entries in a database...

Code: Select all

UPDATE keen_comics SET comic_domain='NEWDOMAINHERE' WHERE comic_domain='keenspace.com'

... and crank out new graphics, a new front page, changing the utilities to reflect the new name (or just remove Keen). AutoSpace, perhapse?

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:24 am

The people I have heard complaining about Keenspace have *never* complained about you guys who actually *do things*.

Except when they complain about Keenspace they don't bother to point out that there are quality comics here done by artists with a professional level of dedication to their work. They just complain, insult, and degrade and engage in wanton douchebaggery. They talk about the two then dropped comics done by 14 year olds when they were bored in math class and not the professional calibur comics in the top ranks that stack up against any of the crop on Spot. The crap on Keenspace is a weak and easy target but for the most part the crap on Keenspace weeds itself out anyways. When less than 10% of the comics account for over 90% of the over 25 million pageviews each month that Keenspace gets what's the fucking point of attacking the lined notebook paper crowd and holding them up as an example of what Keenspace is all about.

Keenspace is almost pure meritocracy. Nobody on Keenspace gets to ride on Ishida's fame. Nobody on Keenspace gets to ride on Poe's talent. If you make it up to the top of Keenspace (and when you get to the top you're pulling in numbers greater than some of those on Spot let me tell you) it's because you worked your fucking ass off to get there.

So nobody on Spot has any business attacking anyone on Keenspace let alone the lined paper crowd. Nobody reads the lined paper crowd so holding them up as an example of how unprofessional Keenspace comic artists are is beyond assinine. The comics pulling in the readership at the top levels of Space are on par with most of the comics on Spot and even surpass a good number of them but when Spot attacks the lined paper crowd they brand all of us on Space as crap and don't for a second think that doesn't make it harder for those of us on Space who do work hard to put together a quality comic and build a readership.

Those of us here who work our asses off to get to the top of the game don't deserve to be treated like charity cases. We don't deserve to be dismissed as amatures and we don't deserve to be held on par with the lined notebook paper crowd. We've worked hard and we've earned the right to be respected as peers. We've earned the fucking right not to be looked down upon simply because we're on Space. We put in the same level of dedication to our work as those on Spot. We're entitled to the same damned respect as artists that they'd give to any Spot artist. Then again that's the problem right there because generally those guilty of the most douchebaggery tend to be too insecure and to egomaniacle to have respect for anyone but themselves.

Wrightc · Post by **Wrightc** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:33 am

I'm not entirely sure you actually took the time to read my post, Ghastly.

Scrubbo · Post by **Scrubbo** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:33 am

Don't listen to the voices of reason! DUMP GASOLINE ON THE FIRES OF INTOLERANCE!

KEENSPOT HATES KEENSPACE! WITH A PASSION! KEENSPACE IS A GREAT PLACE..... FOR US TO POOP ON!

Also, if you keep telling people I look down on keenspace because I'm on keenspot, Ghastly, I MAY just have to SUBJECT YOU TO MORE PICTURES OF ME DRESSED AS A SCHOOLGIRL! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Gross generalizations aren't useful, yet you keep making them in your arguments.

SOMETIMES you say "a few Keenspot Egos" but a lot of the time you talk about Keenspot in general.

So yah, it's crappy that KeenSpace is getting renamed beceause it generates a lot of busy work. But there are some great things to come from this.

1) Learn that if you like your comic, you should like it enough to spring for the 10 bucks a year to have your own URL. Everybody with their own URLs will have a nearly painless transition.
2) You guys can use the name now "officially" to do promotional literature, convention booths, macrame monkey hats, etc.
3) You can be dissociated with the massively Ego'd asshats on Keenspot.
4) You'll still be able to call yourself Spacers
5) It's not LoveRocket

Seriously, though, there really WAS a lot of confusion about the two different services. I never thought there was until I joined keenspot and got to hear about Chris trying to talk to advertisers/reporters/etc about Keenspot/space and having to constantly correct the same person multiple times and knowing that they probably screwed it up when they talked to other people inside THEIR company.

There was a great deal of discussion, including the idea of renaming KeenSPOT instead of KeenSpace. But from a business perspective which includes more than just online comics, renaming KeenSpot was much more costly as it would mean the large inventory of books and plushies and everything would have to be retagged/reprinted/etc. And there has been quite a bit of work to get SOME branding done on the KeenSpot name. The people who run Keenspot (and believe me, it's not the artists!) had to make a decision on all that information. So KeenSpace is the one who gets it in the neck.

But honestly, I don't think it'll be as bad as all that. Keenspace grew for years as a community and will continue to do so for as long as it's on the web. And it won't matter in the long run about the name change as far as the community is concerned. Just look at the WWE! They're still body slammin' right along. Since the old URLs will work for quite some time, there should be no interruption to the readers.

To conclude, monkeys rule.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:53 am

scrubbo wrote: Also, if you keep telling people I look down on keenspace because I'm on keenspot, Ghastly, I MAY just have to SUBJECT YOU TO MORE PICTURES OF ME DRESSED AS A SCHOOLGIRL! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Hey don't think I haven't searched my CDs everywhere for that picture.

Gross generalizations aren't useful, yet you keep making them in your arguments. SOMETIMES you say "a few Keenspot Egos" but a lot of the time you talk about Keenspot in general.

Yes you have a point there. I must be careful to remember to point out that it is only a very vocal minority of those on Spot who are guilty of acts of wanton douchebaggery. Fair enough. Plus, with the recent exodus at least part of that number has diminished (which is not to say that all those leaving Spot were part of the crowd guilty of douchebaggery, not by a longshot).

Who knows, the exodus combined with the name change may be a good thing for Space. Maybe the personel changes in Spot will make artists like Space Coyote comfortable with accepting promotion to Spot which would definetly help things improve.

You have to understand the reason why it upsets me so much to see Space attacked from anyone on Spot when I just shrug it off when some independent attacks us. Space and Spot are all part of the same Keen family. While Space's contribution to the overall wellness of Keen is different from Spot's it is no less important and no less vital. When some vocal Spotters dismiss us as "charity", when some vocal Spotters dismiss us as "customers", when some vocal Spotters dismiss us as "amatures", when some vocal Spotters dismiss us as "hacks" it's an injustice not only to all of us on Space but to all of Keen. What worries me about the name change is that by taking us out of Keen our contribution to Keen will be seen as being diminished if not altogether non existant and that attacking us will be made all the more easy and consequence free.

Dotty · Post by **Dotty** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:53 am

I feel bad for the keenswim guy.

SwimSpace?

Post by **STrRedWolf** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:05 am

!)*@#( it.

See my annoucement in this forum.

Jops · Post by **Jops** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:08 am

I think if Ghastly refers to keenspot as a whole sometimes, is just to put it simple.
Most of the people here know that not all the 'spotters are bad and that Ghastly refers to a bunch of them.

Also, let's make it clear all the people who're annoyed about this matter, it's not because of the name-change itself. Changing the name, in the end, could actually work at our advantage.
But, still, we can't shake the feeling that the real reason behind this is a few arrogant spotters whining so much about being confused with us, that the fab four decided to make them happy so they could finally shut up. In other words we feel there's some disrespect in this! We feel we're victims of the arrogance of a few assholes (and this would piss off anyone, regardless of the benefits).

Go ahead with the name change, that's fine to me... but don't expect one could kick a puppy in the face and make it believe he's giving it a cookie.

Wrightc · Post by **Wrightc** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:12 am

You have to understand the reason why it upsets me so much to see Space attacked from anyone on Spot when I just shrug it off when some independent attacks us. Space and Spot are all part of the same Keen family. While Space's contribution to the overall wellness of Keen is different from Spot's it is no less important and no less vital.

You know what? I agree with you 100%.

When Keenspot started, the environment of webcomics was very much like the environment that Keenspace provides today. Most everyone was using free or cheap webspace, the community was much smaller, and we all knew of each other to a certain degree. It was a community in much the same way the Keenspace community is a community.

From my perspective, I don't see a whole lot of that community left. We were *all* amateurs then, with a few notable exceptions, and there was a fair amount of freedom to just throw something against the wall and see what stuck. My favorite webcomic aroundthe time Keenspot was first starting up (alas, not around any more I think) was a truly weird comic that featured, as one of its main characters, a "badly drawn circle" (it's official name) with an amazing super power called "photoshop gradient fill." It was one of the funniest things I'd ever read... horribly drawn, but the terrible art was worked into the plot, and it worked in a very absurdist way. It would get savagely ridiculed these days, I'm afraid.

(Anyone remember this comic? Is it still around? I haven't been able to find it, and I can't remember what it was called.)

Keenspot is a remnant of older times, and frequently berated because of that. Keenspace, in my eyes, has a lot of that as well: it is something that allows a lot of what was good about the "old days" to flourish, because there are no financial penalties involved in taking risks.

Back in 1996 there was no financial penalty for a guy who can't draw to start writing a comic that mocked the excesses of the computer industry. In 2000, when Keenspot started, that was still pretty much true. These days? I couldn't afford to pay for my bandwidth. If I weren't on Keenspot I'd be on Keenspace, no question about it.

So yeah, Ghastly. I agree with you. And I get tired of cartoonists who keep their noses in the air when it comes to "amateur" comics. Most of them forget where they came from.

RemusShepherd · Post by **RemusShepherd** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:16 am

STrRedWolf wrote:!)*@#( it.

See my annoucement in this forum.

Ah.

So, those of you asking, 'How does this affect us?' -- That's how.

I'm too new to be anything but neutral in this little spat y'all have going on. But now your spat has cost me an admin (and one I still owe fan art). Now you have my attention. And I have to give some credence to the testimonials that Spot isn't treating Space very well.

So the next thing I'll be looking for is what does Spot plan to do about it.

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:23 am

RemusShepherd wrote:But now your spat has cost me an admin (and one I still owe fan art). Now you have my attention. And I have to give some credence to the testimonials that Spot isn't treating Space very well.

So the next thing I'll be looking for is what does Spot plan to do about it.

You know what, Remus? I have to agree with this.

CJBurgandy · Post by **CJBurgandy** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:42 am

wrightc wrote: From my perspective, I don't see a whole lot of that community left. We were *all* amateurs then, with a few notable exceptions, and there was a fair amount of freedom to just throw something against the wall and see what stuck. My favorite webcomic aroundthe time Keenspot was first starting up (alas, not around any more I think) was a truly weird comic that featured, as one of its main characters, a "badly drawn circle" (it's official name) with an amazing super power called "photoshop gradient fill." It was one of the funniest things I'd ever read... horribly drawn, but the terrible art was worked into the plot, and it worked in a very absurdist way. It would get savagely ridiculed these days, I'm afraid.

I actually have to admit that besides "thin H line" the first webcomic I read was called Triangle and Bob. It was pretty much like badly drawn circle, it was funny but the artwork was terrible. I'm not sure if that comic is still around or not either, but I eventually tettered off of reading it... you can only watch a triangle and rhombus make fun of a prozac pill so many times.

Col · Post by **Col** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:45 am

Phalanx wrote:
RemusShepherd wrote:But now your spat has cost me an admin (and one I still owe fan art). Now you have my attention. And I have to give some credence to the testimonials that Spot isn't treating Space very well.

So the next thing I'll be looking for is what does Spot plan to do about it.
You know what, Remus? I have to agree with this.

Ditto. Now I'm starting to get pissed about this.

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:50 am

Well let's wait for a bit and see what's the response to that is first.

Honestly I don't buy the 'arrogant Spotters trampling uppity Spacers' theory one bit , but lack of communication, on the other hand...

Scrubbo · Post by **Scrubbo** » Thu May 19, 2005 9:01 am

Ghastly wrote:
scrubbo wrote: Also, if you keep telling people I look down on keenspace because I'm on keenspot, Ghastly, I MAY just have to SUBJECT YOU TO MORE PICTURES OF ME DRESSED AS A SCHOOLGIRL! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Hey don't think I haven't searched my CDs everywhere for that picture.

I have a copy still, somewhere. I should make it my icon.

Who knows, the exodus combined with the name change may be a good thing for Space. Maybe the personel changes in Spot will make artists like Space Coyote comfortable with accepting promotion to Spot which would definetly help things improve.

I'm hoping the exodus is good for those that have left as well as good for keenspot as a whole. And not in any 'personalities leaving' sort of way.

You have to understand the reason why it upsets me so much to see Space attacked from anyone on Spot when I just shrug it off when some independent attacks us. Space and Spot are all part of the same Keen family. While Space's contribution to the overall wellness of Keen is different from Spot's it is no less important and no less vital. When some vocal Spotters dismiss us as "charity", when some vocal Spotters dismiss us as "customers", when some vocal Spotters dismiss us as "amatures", when some vocal Spotters dismiss us as "hacks" it's an injustice not only to all of us on Space but to all of Keen. What worries me about the name change is that by taking us out of Keen our contribution to Keen will be seen as being diminished if not altogether non existant and that attacking us will be made all the more easy and consequence free.

Hah hah! You think that's bad? You can be ON keenspot and get dismissed as a 'hack' 'amatuer' 'charity case' by certain keenspotters.

Note that you can attack any and all keenspotters that you want however you want without getting kicked off of keenspace, just as Keenspot has not punished Keenspotters for spouting off with their personal opinion about keenspace.

I was around for the whole debate about keenspace/keenspot brand confusion. I know it wasn't done as a 'fuck you, Keenspace!' or done to mollify a few vocal critics. It was done because there really was a point to "keenspace/keenspot are too similar for branding purposes" argument. And that branding problem was the reason why no keenspace book/booths/etc could be done without direct supervision by keenspot. With a name change, people outside of the tight knit webcomics community will make no mistakes. And everybody inside the community will know that *Space is a part of what Keenspot does for online comics.

The same argument behind the keenspace name change is ALSO behind the adding of 'archives' to the keenspot front page and moving inactive comics from the front page to the archives. (Which we need to be better about, imho, with an automated check on update frequency) It was the same argument behind the keenspot web redesign. It's the argument behind other stuff that may be coming down the pike in Keenspot's future. (NOT in keenspace's future! I'm NOT implying that more things will happen to keenspace!)

Keenspot is trying to be a more profitable business, do more for its creators, and having a more professional front is a continuing part of that. THe culling of non-updating strips from keenspot's front was driven by this. Dissociating brands from Keenspace which has a massive precentage of non-updating strips is part of that. It's true some people (usually in private discussions) denegrated Keenspace as a whole without admitting that there are some very good strips and supported the change of branding for those reasons, but they were a minority. A large number of people were swayed by the 'professional front' and specifically the non-updating comics. Note that some keenspot artists get the shaft from that decision, being moved into the 'inactive area' of keenspot.

Some keenspotters have said mean things publically about keenspace, and that was pure asshattedness. Of course, the reverse is also true. The asshat fits on many heads. (including mine!)

The point I'm trying to make is that the name change wasn't meant to be a jerk move. We knew there would be protests and some hurt feelings, and Chris, Gav, Teri, and Nate knew too. I think that's one of the reasons they asked for suggestions from you guys. In the long run, the benefits outweigh the problems for keenspacers as well as keenspot. It gives you a 'brand' you can own more completely and actually use.

As a Keenspotter who spent 4 years on keenspace (and watched other people on keenspace get spotted) I actually was against the name change originally, but the reasoning behind it made me change my mind.

Anyway, I'm hoping you guys will like the new name! If all else fails, just remember large friendly letters printed on the front of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.