Defend Anime Art!!

Superlance · Post by **Superlance** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:12 pm

Anime is one of the most popular art forms in the world.
It is well recognised everywhere, unlike some other types of art.
Yet anime is the worst recieved form; shunned by many as being unethical, and disliked by even more.
Anime artists have a hard time in a world where their hard work is simply shunned by others simply because of what style it is; most people don't even consider how much work each artist puts into the art.

People give excuses like: Well, anime is so easy anyone could do it.
Wrong; while the anime style does include Chibi, which is a very easy style; it also includes much more difficult forms, which rival realistic form in their difficulty.

Or: Anime is just for kids.
Also incorrect. Most anime movies are rated PG-13 or R. And almost every anime show on TV has been edited.

These, my friends, are just a few of the problems anime artists face.
But, now; we will hide in the shadows no more- it is time for us to stand and be counted amonst other more accepted arts.

We are not here to start a war, and we are not here to make enemies; we are simply sick of being shunned by the close-minded people of this world.
Join, and support Defend Anime Art; and help make a difference.

Defend Anime Art
Defend Anime Art Forums

This art clique was formed by Chungleng Chong (who is not me) on March 16th, 2004.

Luprand · Post by **Luprand** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:12 am

Personally, while I like anime and occasionally draw in a style that vaguely approaches it ... I'm kinda sick of the Internet ads that are all like "Free anime porn! Lookie lookie lookie! Download this stuff! WOoooo!"

--Sij

Thingschange · Post by **Thingschange** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:52 am

Anime is persecuted? Is this an American thing?

Where I live just about everyone around their twenties has at least watched an episode of at least Neon-genesis or Sakura. A lot of people have seen either ghost in the shell, akira or ninja scroll. A lot of people (like me) grew up on astroboy and voltron. Some people enjoy the art style, others don't but most people appreciate the work that goes into it as an art form.

Admitedly I practically live in Asia, (Australia), so maybe that's why we don't experience this Anime prejudice.

Some complaints against anime are quite reasonable though. As a technical medium they tend to be of lower quality than western cartoons in the number of distinct frames drawn (though there are many exceptions to this pattern) which gives a less perfect illusion of motion.

I can also understand why people would have difficulty understanding the typical anime plot if they are not experienced with manga or japanese culture. The only reason I can even vaguely understand these plots is because I've been watching them my entire life.

But the one thing I absolutely love about Anime is that it doesn't always have a happy ending (I'm sick of the gratuitous hollywood ending), is quite likely the same reason some people find it unethical. The greyscale morality of their worlds may offend people used to the standard black-white morality they experience in other media.

Phact0rri · Post by **Phact0rri** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:53 am

all comic an animation styles are under such arrest. don't think its just anime. Comics as an art form has been a battle going on forever. Manga are comics so they are in that lumped sum.

So its not just anime/manga. its all comics and animation.

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:08 am

But what if I just don't care for the drawing style? Not that I want to ban it or anything, it just isn't my thing....

Thingschange · Post by **Thingschange** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:00 am

phactorri wrote:all comic an animation styles are under such arrest

A good explanation of why this has happened is "Gods and tulips" by Neil Gaiman, published by the comic book legal defence fund.

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:23 am

Superlance, this seems more like a discussion than a group thing. You're not really making or joining anything Keenspace so I would like to move this to GD. What do you think?

As far as anime having a bad rep, yeah I would say it does. Most people who don't know anything about it will think of hentai or they think of Disney. Anime didn't get shown on TV until recently. Even now you get stuff like Yu-Gi-Oh, Dragonball, or Pokemon. Parents see these and "anime is for kids." Cowboy Bebop gets played on Adult Swim. Tenchi Muyo gets made safe for American TV (really, they could have at least drawn a better bikini for Ryoko). We don't really get to see anime. We see cartoons with bad voice acting that's just as simplified and sanitized as Young Hercules or Aladdin the series.

Phact0rri · Post by **Phact0rri** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:28 pm

I have to disagree again. There are some good american animation TVs shows with high production values some of which are made over seas. I don't see where or how anime is getting any diffrence than any other style of art, or animation.

When people think "cartoons" they think Tom and Jerry, Scooby doo and the like, as apposed to some of the better cartoons like Justice League, or Teen titans. Or heck stuff like Titan AE, Atlantis, spider man or what not. So I don't really see a valid point to where anime is any more critcized than any other countries animation. We could even say that German animation we think of Butch and Kreiger or the KMFDM videos.

All art is criticized all art is put up to all these standards. people look at Anime and say "hey I could do that" when watching Yugi or what not. the same could be said about watching somthing from williams Street like Aqua Teen, or Sea Lab.

I don't see where its more perscuted than any other animation style. Actually its more revevered in the long run. Most people thing Anime is cool, as apposed to american Cartoons. They are looked at as better, and many animators look to the Japanese for inspiration.

Gage Kronos · Post by **Gage Kronos** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:16 pm

The thing with the, "Hey I could do that" thought about the drawing style is that it's takes some practice to be able to say, "Hey...I CAN do that!" My drawing style has obviously been influenced by Anime but I won't say that I'm any good at drawing in any one Anime style...my style has become my own now, it just has an influence from Anime.

Even so, there are hundreds of different individual styles within the entire genre to begin with. Just look at DragonBall and then look at something like Lain. Completely different styles of drawing AND story telling. That wide range of styles in both art and story telling was what increased my love for the genre to begin with.

My high school friends called the entire genre stupid kiddy stuff and nothing more than perverted cartoons. This was all before Pokemon became mainstream on our shores as well (wow, I'm dating myself). I'm not sure what a lot of them would say now, but I gather they would think the same. I think a lot of the people that say such things have never really looked past the cartoon-like surface to look at the underlying story and what it says about Japanese culture.

When I still attended the University of Oregon, I was fortunate enough to nab a spot in "Tokyo Cyberpunk", which is a class only offered every other Winter term. The class was devoted to watching various Anime of the "cyberpunk" genre like Akira, Lain, and Evangelion and then discussing the themes and subtexts. It was quite eye opening, and I doubt that many American cartoons would hold up to such discussion.

Superlance · Post by **Superlance** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:11 pm

faub wrote:Superlance, this seems more like a discussion than a group thing. You're not really making or joining anything Keenspace so I would like to move this to GD. What do you think?

As far as anime having a bad rep, yeah I would say it does. Most people who don't know anything about it will think of hentai or they think of Disney. Anime didn't get shown on TV until recently. Even now you get stuff like Yu-Gi-Oh, Dragonball, or Pokemon. Parents see these and "anime is for kids." Cowboy Bebop gets played on Adult Swim. Tenchi Muyo gets made safe for American TV (really, they could have at least drawn a better bikini for Ryoko). We don't really get to see anime. We see cartoons with bad voice acting that's just as simplified and sanitized as Young Hercules or Aladdin the series.

Yes, I agree.

As for moving this to GD; I don't care, Chungleng just said on the clique's site that she wanted some publicity for this thing, so I promised I would give her any I could find.
So...
Yeah.
So move it if you think that would be a good idea.

Thingschange: Anime is persecuted here as being childish; it is compared to shows such as Dexters' Lab; Powerpuff Girls; and Ed, Edd, and Eddy; all very much younger childrens shows.
When I told my misinformed mother that most anime was rated PG-13, or R, she did a exact impersonation image of the

smiley.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:42 am

Superlance wrote:Anime is one of the most popular art forms in the world.
It is well recognised everywhere, unlike some other types of art.
Yet anime is the worst recieved form; shunned by many as being unethical, and disliked by even more.
Anime artists have a hard time in a world where their hard work is simply shunned by others simply because of what style it is; most people don't even consider how much work each artist puts into the art.

People give excuses like: Well, anime is so easy anyone could do it.
Wrong; while the anime style does include Chibi, which is a very easy style; it also includes much more difficult forms, which rival realistic form in their difficulty.

Or: Anime is just for kids.
Also incorrect. Most anime movies are rated PG-13 or R. And almost every anime show on TV has been edited.

These, my friends, are just a few of the problems anime artists face.
But, now; we will hide in the shadows no more- it is time for us to stand and be counted amonst other more accepted arts.

We are not here to start a war, and we are not here to make enemies; we are simply sick of being shunned by the close-minded people of this world.
Join, and support Defend Anime Art; and help make a difference.

Defend Anime Art
Defend Anime Art Forums

This art clique was formed by Chungleng Chong (who is not me) on March 16th, 2004.

What you said can as well be applied to a lot of things.

Like comic strips (have you ever recieved that "oh, you draw comics" look? Bad easel or conceptuel artist is more appreciated that best comic artist).
Or science fiction.
Or even pop music.
Or everything new for that matter.

They all have to be protected. Some of them have, for years and years, but it's no use. You can't change human nature.

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:55 pm

So moved.

Powerpuff Girls is a total parody of anime.

Mr Ekshin · Post by **Mr Ekshin** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:10 pm

I have nothing against anime. It's just another style.

Where comics are involved, I've always wondered why more peeps don't try to develop their own style instead of copying anime.

It's weird, but it seems to me that the better people get at it, the more their stuff looks the same as others who are as good, instead of looking different.

ZOMBIE USER 16849 · Post by **ZOMBIE USER 16849** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:15 pm

Anime can be hard to draw for people who are used to drawing realistically, and vice versa.

I wasn't aware that anime was oppressed (here in America)... go to your local Barnes and Nobles or Books A Million, and see the vast selections of graphic novels - ranging from the crappy manga to kickass.

Not that I can afford any of it.

Though I must say, when I'm in art class and I do an anime doodle, it annoys me to have the instructor ask if that's "Sailor Moon." Dude, I love Sailor Moon - but no.

I think anime's doing fine. People may find anime to be inferior, but it's all your own opinion that matters. I don't think it needs an alliance.

Toxic · Post by **Toxic** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:20 pm

I also think anime is grossly misunderstood in this country. I live in the bay area in California which is at least half Asian, so practically everyone I know is an anime fan. This summer I was visiting a friend in Chicago, and he said practically everyone there knew nothing about anime, other than Pokemon and "Spirited Away".

War · Post by **War** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:22 pm

Remember the whole "comic books are for kids" debacle.

I never noticed a problem with peoples perceptions of anime. None of my friends think it's childish, and if they did, I'd just show them some of the last episodes of Evangelion and watch their heads explode.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:34 pm

TOXIC AVENGER! wrote:I also think anime is grossly misunderstood in this country. I live in the bay area in California which is at least half Asian, so practically everyone I know is an anime fan. This summer I was visiting a friend in Chicago, and he said practically everyone there knew nothing about anime, other than Pokemon and "Spirited Away".

You said it yourself, it's a strictly local thing (not knowing about anime, that is). Here, too, noone knows about it except for Dragonball and Pokemon, but you can't blame them, the only other manga thing (including anime and comics as well) ever imported here was "Princess Mononoke", and, very recently, "Akira" which is pretty easy to mestake for realistic comic anyway.
But it's like with french movies or comics, which are not very known or well distributed in USA sa USA people sometimes don't even know europeans make films at all. Nothing to be worried about, again it's relatively local mestake.
Let's just leave style defending itself with it's own quality.

MixedMyth · Post by **MixedMyth** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:00 pm

1. Anime is like any medium. It has a large quantity of bad stuff, and some good stuff...or at least a large portion of stuff that a person won't like, and some that they will. The same could be said for a lot of other artistic media- paintings, movies, music, etc.

2. The style is actually very fluid. It's true that there is a sort of cannon that it tends to follow. The same is true for, say, American comic books. But there's still diversity within that. The degree of individuality, realism, and technique verry widely while still often adhering to some stylistic/cultural based constants.

3. The idea that anime is only for kids is silly. This idea was actually popularized back in the day when Disney took the reigns of the American animation industry and decided to cater cartoons towards a child audience. It was not so cut and dried before that, and it still wasn't over in Japan.

4. Also, anime covers a wide variety of genres. Sure, there are some stereotypes within it- mecha anime, magical girl anime, etc. But these are two of many genres...as many as exist in, say, regular TV programing. Not all anime is action based, or sheer fanservice. I once heard about one that was based on the game Go. Also, now and again there are those that, as with film here, try to make a point, to break the barriers of stereotype. I'd point to Grave of the Fireflies for this. Quite possibly the saddest movie I've ever seen, but also very good. American film has its stereotypical genres, too. The sitcom, the reality show. Things like that.

5. I'm not going to say that anime is the b3stist, or superior to anything else. I just like it because it more often conveys stories in which I am interested. I.E. the sci fi/fantasy contingent in anime usually interests me more than what's on TV. It's personal preference. Besides, I still watch some of the good American/ British sci fi shoes. And, truth to tell, there aren't many good fantasy shows out there.

Christwriter · Post by **Christwriter** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:26 pm

I think what causes Anime and Manga to be derided so often is because it is a very simplified art form to the american eye. Manga is often colorless, with fine lines and graidants, frequent backdrops instead of backgrounds, and very conservative in its details. The Zen of comic books, in a way. Especially compared to American style...color, heavy lines, lots of detailed backgrounds. Anime seems to be, basically, colored Manga. The same style, the same amount of complexity, but just colored and shaded with, (depending on the kind of story) more detailed backgrounds. In contrast, an American comic-to-cartoon is dramatically simplified to make it easier on the animators.

The problem is that Manga's simplicity looks easier than it really is. If you compare X-Men or Spider-Man to Chobits or Alien9, naturally, the Manga LOOKS much easier. It's not. It's completely different...you still have to know basic anatomy, geometry, hair flow, fabric flow and creative writing. You just do it with a minimum of lines and color.

Basically...it's different. It's a completely different style, and right now that style seems to be more alive than American style. (Come on. How many versions of SuperHero can you do before you've scraped the bucket dry?). And while there are limits to Manga and Anime (Poke'mon and DragonballZ...if I see one more gelcap ball or thirty-minute powerup, I'm gonna put my pencil box through the TV) there are limits to American animation too. (Two Words. Spongebob. Squarepants.)

Translation: It's ART, it's FUN and it hasn't degraded itself TOO far...yet.

CW

Post by **Mercury Hat** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:44 pm

As it's been mentioned, anime is the newest thing we've got, within the last few years it's really started to get to more areas than just the California coast where it originated in the States. But I think the thing is the fans, more than anything. You've got fans drawing the extremely simplified basic faces and characters and they seem to be everywhere. The hardcore fan types who are "omg here's me as a chibi BAKA NEKO KAWAII~~~" really start to grate on your nerves.

But then you get people who use the style as a mere starting point and develop their own styles off of it. Dominic Deegan is the simple manga style, there's also Slightly Schizophrenic and Saturnalia whose artists have a very good handle on anatomy.

But the biggest part of any comic is the story. Good art can never make up for a bad story but faults in the art can be overlooked if the story is good enough. Dominic Deegan does this for me, the characters are obviously not as realistic as they could be, but the story is solid and enjoyable.

So while there may be people who can draw Cowboy Bebop/Fushigi Yugi/Ranma/whatever-ish characters, most don't have their own characters or stories to put them in. Of course anyone who limits themselves to exclusively fan art or just a copying of someone else's style is never going to develop their own.

Comic Genesis Forums

Defend Anime Art!!

Defend Anime Art!!

Re: Defend Anime Art!!