The morality of suicide.

Kibbles · Post by **Kibbles** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 12:08 am

Between this story arc, and a flash thing I saw about the WTC, this was in my mind a lot lately.

On 9/11 people jumped to their deaths. Probably because it was better than the alternative. (Burning/suffocating? Dont know, wasnt there.)

Now, TECHNICALLY, is this suicide? I mean, if you were the sort to think that suicide meant you were going to hell would these people be hell bound? Personally I think no, would HATE to think that any Diety would be that much of a BASTARD (the fact that this even happened we wont even go int0) but going by the strict doctrine of religions around the world, was that or was that not suicide, and was it or was it not a sin?

Someone in my livejournal pointed out that perhaps they were hoping beyond hope that jumping they MIGHT live, or that they would have been blown out of the building, but I dont know about the feasability of either (especially having worked in WTC myself).

What do you guys think?

Surtur · Post by **Surtur** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 1:20 am

I vote no.

Choosing which way to go isn't the same as choosing to go... is it?

Kibbles · Post by **Kibbles** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 1:25 am

On 2002-03-20 01:20, Surtur wrote:
I vote no.

Choosing which way to go isn't the same as choosing to go... is it?

See now what I dont know is -- what if in the mind of the Diety, you were choosing to go because you werent trusting Him/Her (trying to be open here) into getting you out of the situation? Jump by choice and you surely die, but maybe somehow something will rescue you if you just wait a little bit longer. . .

Ian Rain Soulfox · Post by **Ian Rain Soulfox** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:51 am

I thought about that and posted about the same sort of thing far earlier into the arc once the WTC building went into play.. I'm sure the guy who leapt from the building in that one panel is probably there for a good reason, though something keeps nagging me about that.. just a horrible thought to know that those that were perhaps more desperate than others during that tradgedy may have been damned because of it.

Ian R. Soulfox

Vazagi · Post by **Vazagi** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:54 am

Jumping in that case, to me, is an act of defiance. That you will die on your own terms, not theirs. I don't think that the deity would condemn you for making that choice, since you are going to die no matter what.

Jump by choice and you surely die, but maybe somehow something will rescue you if you just wait a little bit longer. . .

And then again, maybe not. You can never know what will happen in such situations, since they are - thankfully - rare...

You might want to check out some images that David posted in this thread: 1 2 3 4

Kibbles · Post by **Kibbles** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 3:32 am

And then again, maybe not. You can never know what will happen in such situations, since they are - thankfully - rare...

You might want to check out some images that David posted in this thread: 1 2 3 4

There was a married couple, expecting a baby, that was in that very situation. They were in one of the local papers yesterday (I am in NYC).

They found his hand. Nothing of hers, yet. Waiting to bury until they have a piece of each. People are somewhat comforted knowing that since they worked in the same office, right near each other, that they at least HAD each other.

And then there is the neighbor of my parents, the widow was dying of cancer. He expected her to go first, and to raise their kids by themselves. The kids (same age as mine, really, they are 4 and 7) were 'prepared' for mom to die. They didnt expect dad to go first. She died last month, I believe (the past few months have been a blur, I just had a baby). So they are together. The kids, however, have to go on without them.

Striker · Post by **Striker** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 4:11 am

I'd jump. Because...in a way...I've always been convinced that I can fly. It's one of those minor delusions that aren't really interfering with daily life because self-preservation instinct blocks them out, but if I see that there's no way out anyway...

I'd jump and finally find out whether I'm superman or not. Positive or negative, at least I'd have an answer in the end.

Arcaton · Post by **Arcaton** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:27 am

Remember Fnar's mommy? And Jack's observation that she would have been a good mommy and that that might have saved her soul?
IMHO the guy who jumped from the "oblong tomb" need not have been damned for jumping but for his balance at the time of his death. In Piers Anthony's "Incarnations of Immortality" series the theory put forward was that a murderer took on board all the negative acts of his victims, thus ensuring a good long time in Hell, with each expiated sin being replaced by the next as in the case of a character in the book who had caused the wreck of a school bus...he had a lot of damnation to work off.
Would I jump? Dunno. May it please God none of us ever have occasion to find out.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Arcaton on 2002-03-20 05:29 ]</font>

Michael Ezaiany · Post by **Michael Ezaiany** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 8:06 am

Suicide is always a bad thing to do, even if you suffer the worst torture in your life. God is a mean son of a bitch and he told us something like this "You're not allowed to ease your pain. Only I am allowed to do so."

JD · Post by JD » Wed Mar 20, 2002 9:04 am

On 2002-03-20 08:06, Michael Ezaiany wrote:
Suicide is always a bad thing to do, even if you suffer the worst torture in your life. God is a mean son of a bitch and he told us something like this "You're not allowed to ease your pain. Only I am allowed to do so."

Suicide's bad, M'kay..?
Frankly, what the ringleaders of an old cult that got big write about morality, hasn't really all that much to do with right and wrong. Not doing something just because an entity - whose existance can not be verified - told you not to, is pretty darned lame alltogether. Basing one's ethics on something a little less vague would be doing the world a big service.

Anyways, I feel suicide should be freed of the stigma it has had in western societies. From where I am looking, the fact does seem to be that some people will never be strong enough to carry on without having others constantly supporting them. It is called pouring water into a well, and it is always a major waste of resources.

If a person wants to off themselves, they should be allowed to do so, but only after a certain 'waiting period', and a touch of counseling to find out if their reasoning is intact. Actually, that is the rational me talking there, the emotional me would dismiss with the waiting period and have suicide booths on every corner, for fast and convenient self-termination. We'd have a lot less whiny people around that way.

Zzzzzzzzzzzap - JD

----
"I have lost the will to live
Simply nothing more to give
There is nothing more for me
Need the end to set me free"
-Fade to Black; Metallica-

Michael Ezaiany · Post by **Michael Ezaiany** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 9:19 am

Just to clear some things:

I don't care what God says we should do. I always do what I want and what I think that it's good. For some time, I was a satanist. I've read the Satanic bible and dozens of satanic documents. Now, I have an opinion on satanists. There're two main groups:1)Fanatical 2)Normal

1)Disgusting, vile, brutal, masochistic, sadictics, blood thirsty freaks, who only seek to torture and bring pain to themselves and to others. They're disgrace of all Satanists and they make the Normal Satanists look bad.

2)Nice people. They never hurt anyone, unless they have a good reason to do so. They pray to Satan, but they know that only they can safe themselves. Satanism represents a good life on Earth, instead of self-denial and preparation for after-life, because thye believe that there's no afterlife.

Like I said, I was a Satanist for some time, but I'm now I'm not. Y'know why? Jack. Yep, Jack kinda opened my eyes. Now, I have stabilized my creed status:

God, Satan, Angels, Devils, Souls and Demons probably exist (thought I'm not sure), but I don't care. I don't pray to God, I don't pray to Satan. I'll NEVER pray to either of them, because I believe that only you can be your own savior. I'm something like a mix between a Satanist, a Christian and an Atheist. I believe that my fate is in my hands, I don't want to hurt anyone, unless he really deserves it, I don't care about God or Satan. It's confusing, I know...

Now, back to the topic. My mother once said : "You haven't gave your life to yourself, so you can't end it."
What I say is : "Nobody ever asked me if I want to live. If someone gave me life, it was my parents, not God. Therefore, it's my life, so I can do with it anything I want and anything I consider being good."

_________________
In the real world, as in dreams.
Nothing is quite what it seems.
____________________________________
-Official greeter of the Jack forum

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Michael Ezaiany on 2002-03-20 09:21 ]</font>

Lobo · Post by **Lobo** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 9:45 am

I've really never pondered suicide as a viable option, but if for some reason I decided that I had to kill myself, I think I know how I'd like to go.
First I'd take skydiving lessons with a friend and get certified. Then go skydiving with said friend over a dry, desert-y place (maybe Arizona or New Mexico) and have them bring a video camera. When I pull my ripcord, an anvil pops out instead of a parachute. I look at the camera in mock surprise and pull a sign from behind my back that reads 'Uh Oh!'.
Then my friend pulls their cord as I recede into the distance, hopefully making a convincing puff of dust when I hit.
Of course it would suck if the camera broke afterwards

Another option that I have discussed with some friends is, if we're not gainfully employed or happily married by the time we're 30, we pool our money, buy a bunch of guns and a fast boat, and become the Pirates of the Caribbean. Well, probably not, but a man can dream, no?

Michael Ezaiany · Post by **Michael Ezaiany** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 9:50 am

I thought about suicide many times and I still think about it even now, sometimes. My best bet is to use the good old bridge in Nusle in Prague. It's not called the Bridge of Suicides for nothing...

JD · Post by JD » Wed Mar 20, 2002 9:52 am

On 2002-03-20 09:19, Michael Ezaiany wrote:
Now, I have an opinion on satanists. There're two main groups:1)Fanatical 2)Normal

Wrote a paper on these funloving people once as a part of my Comparative Religion studies. We had had a bit of a 'satanic ritual killing' here in Finland, and the media was having a field day of course. Although our media isn't nearly as ill as it is in the UK or the US, the yellow press was still working heavily on the 'evil satanic threat' angle - black metal, roleplaying games, yadayadayada, you know the drill.

Anyway, I decided to write a paper to sort out the mess a bit, focusing on the fact that a satanist, and a satan worshipper, are two very different things, a distinction the media constantly failed to make. (The paper is available on my home page actually, but only in Finnish, sorry.)

My results were basically as follows:
You basically have satanists, and satan worshippers. The first group is composed of older, philosophical types, who do not practise a religion, but an ideology. They are selfish in a healthy sort of way, putting themselves first, but are mindful not to let the society around them fall down. Both the self and the society must be nurtured. The second group is composed of teen-aged glueheads, who use their 'religion' as an excuse, and a front, for sex, violence, and drugs. They care solely for themselves, and a couple even actually believe in satan, offering him sacrifice. These latter people in general, are off their fcking minds.

That's the basic distinction, but of course you have individuals who say they practise one thing, while doing the other. There are satanists who havn't a clue about the satanic philosophy, and satan-worshippers who have taken a rather ponderous, theological angle towards their worship. Still, the bulk of these groups remain fairly uniform.

Satanism would have a lot going for it, if LaVey hadn't played up the sensationalist angle as much as he did. It got him into the media, yes, but it also robbed 'the church' of most of its credibility. These days, a lot of people actually follow the basic satanic commandments, without knowing it. It's a funny old world...

Insulsissimus Est Homo - JD

-----
"Would you please explain to me
why your "loving god" took my friend from me?
I'm sure it comes as no surprise
that the answer can't be found in your Book of Lies"
-Book of Lies; The Electric Hellfire Club-

Lobo · Post by **Lobo** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 9:53 am

On 2002-03-20 09:19, Michael Ezaiany wrote:
Just to clear some things:

I don't care what God says we should do.

Yeah! Stupid God, creating everything and telling us what to do! I'd smack his punk ass around and be all like 'what's up now, bitch?'

Michael Ezaiany · Post by **Michael Ezaiany** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 9:55 am

If that so-called God is all powerful, all knowing, all everything, then he should know that giving us free thinking was the stupidest idea since creating Adam and Eve.

Merlark · Post by **Merlark** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 12:04 pm

Good thoughts, heres anouther clock stopper here.

those who invoke the death penalty apon a murderer, are they infact commiting murder themselves and there for, sinning?

the guy who gives lethal injections or throws the switch on the chair... does he get slapped with murder as well in the land down under?

I would say yes i suppose...

El SillY · Post by **El SillY** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 12:11 pm

Suicide: Okay by me, after all it is your life isn't it?

Death Penalty: Is Jack responsible for the souls he reap? I think not, the guy hitting the switch is just doing his job, nothing he can do about it really. The fact that he choose that job is another matter though...

Cypress · Post by **Cypress** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 1:43 pm

You know... I have absolutely nothing to say about this for once!

As far as I'm concerend about uh, satanism, they can do what ever they want just... just as long as they don't touch my cupcake!

Arcaton · Post by **Arcaton** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:34 pm

As to the mind of an executioner, there was one I think called Syd Dernley who assisted Albert Pierrepoint in carrying out judicial hangings in the UK once upon a time. He wrote a book that I recall reading (in a very fragile yellowed edition) from the library.
He doen't seem from his book to be a particularly pleasant person....perhaps others would be interested?