The Arena

[DJ]

If I ever see a Ryu only Hadokening or Shoryukening in a battle, I end up bitchslapping the fool for being so stupid.

[JJ "The Badass"]

well what i'm saying is its a semi-viable tactic in the old street fighters which is pure suicide in mvc2 because of the totally different mechanics. i realize its not an advanced ryu, but even shoto rushdown is pretty useless in mvc2.

[Bonus-kun]

On 2002-03-02 09:19, DJ wrote:
I don't fault anyone for wanting to be good... but listen to yourself a little... you talk of the Strider/Doom trap, I don't like hearing things like that. I believe no matter how good the player, no matter what team they have, no matter what team you have they shouldn't have to resort to "tricks" and "traps" to win. Play the game as it was *meant* to be played and not the way the lazzies over at Capcom programed it.

DJ, DJ, DJ.

You see a trap or strategy you can't get around? There is a way. Find it. I haven't been exposed to enough StriDoom to work a way around it yet (hell, I downright suck at MvC2), but take guard breaking for example.

You know that when Cable kills a character, he can do a normal j.HP on the character coming in. If he blocks, Cable fires off an unblockable AHVB, which can be linked into another AHVB, ad infinitum until the poor bastard dies. Cheap! ...NOT. Just don't block the guard-breaking j.HP, and you'll be able to block the AHVB easily. I've seen this done many times at a recent MvC2 tournament at West Edmonton Mall.

MvC2 is not that bad of a game; I dare say it takes more skill than any previous Versus game. A type of skill I don't posess, admittedly; my area of expertise is the more "traditional" fighting game engines, including the SF2 series, the Alpha series, and the CvS series. But you know this already since we're in cahoots in RL.

There are glitches a-plenty, yes, but the truly gamebreaking ones are banned. Claiming that the predominance of glitches is a recent phenomenon is misguided at best; remember SF2:WW Guile and Dhalsim? SSF2 Zangief? SFA2 Valle CCs?

DJ, stop complaining about traps and tricks. A good player finds a way around them. A scrub whines and bitches while never getting better at the game. The way a game "should" be played, as you put it, is not something you have the power to define. Nor is it anyone else's but the programmers at Capcom, lazy as they may be.

Whining about things like StriDoom and priority is no better than having other people whine about your throwing. It's downright foolish.

There is still time, DJ. We were at the same level of skill back when Alpha 3 was new, but now it seems you'll need my help to catch up to me. Remember: if it's in the game, it's in the game.

-PVC

[DJ]

Oi! Reread that post I made... not *once* did I complain about this trap... I on;y commented on it in general and I said much the same as you did. Yes, unfair stuff may be in the game, but there's usually a way around it.

Admittedly I've only played MvC2 a handful of times, I just comment in general. Yes, one or two glitches were in games before this, but never on this magnitude... personally I have yet to hear about anyone pathetic enough to try and use Gulie's "Magic Cuffs" to win a match... it's all about honor. Something today's players seem to lack.

Yes, I've slacked off in my skillz lately, but if you remember correctly I couldn't even do supers reliably until late Alpha 2 hence my need to "CUSTOM!!!!" and remember how long it took me to learn basic air combos? Not until MvC1... even now, I'm not *that* good at it... I still can't parry reliably... I've always been a generation behind everyone else in terms of my gameplay, but I accept that handicap and work around it. Sure, I may bitch and complain a lot, but that's really my frustration with having to learn the system over again due to minor tweaking (Case in point, throwing. My throwing game has been fudged up *so* badly with *every* new game Capcom has released lately...)

Have I made myself clear enough or am I just rambling?

[Anime_duck]

the way the game was "meant" to be played is judged by the player not capcom.

....mvc2 is made to blitz the screen full of insane stuff and move at a million miles an hour to do a 182 hit combo on someone. hell there's so many 100% combos that aren't infinites its pretty insane.

yeah, it's all up to the player, and it IS meant to fill up the screen with lots of pretty (and painful) eye candy. but again, it's up to the player. i find that the game is meant to be played up close fast and furious fighting. (yeah i know there are better characters to use for this task, but i like my team. and my team isn't really set either, but that's part of the game, well for me) so i rush in, and pop up, and keep iceman for assist occasionally.

but others it may be based on skill on not using glitches or what ever they can find, and just play to play. win or lose.

oh and i bet that gambit glitch would be banned in tournament, but against a good friend who's pissin ya off, it's fair game.

[Anime_duck]

well what i'm saying is its a semi-viable tactic in the old street fighters which is pure suicide in mvc2 because of the totally different mechanics

not only in mvc2 but also capcom vs snk 2 as well with the roll feature. it's askin to get bitchslapped repeatedly until they cry.

[Bokutou]

mmm. Oh yes, the Cheapness.. many fighting games revolve around winning through "cheapness". (..not saying that's their purpose, but it is what it can become at the arcade.) But like Bonus-kun says, there's generally a way out of any trap. It just takes some experimenting to find out the say out of the traps. Granted, I haven't found any ways out of most traps myself, but that's due to people changing tactics every battle, and not having a constant between battles to test for ways out of certain traps. So it just takes some practicing to get out of them, and that means experiencing traps a few times. So there's generally a way to out-'cheap' someone in about any game. Sometimes it's as simple as DJ says: throws. I'm not saying that's always the fail-safe, but it's just an example. Even in DOA3 each character can cheese alone or in Tag (like capcoms fighters you can cheese with or without call-in's, etc), but since each character can cheese the other in some way, that's not really an excuse for why ya lost. It's integrated into the game. Deal. Though, granted, some characters are just better than others, regardless.. You just have to out-cheese a cheeser, someway, somehow, though, if you lost 'cuz someone trapped you and cheesed you. But if you have found out how to escape most traps, and you still get beat down and 'cheaped' then you most likely are just playing against a better player. And sometimes there's not much you can do to win against someone more skilled. It's competitive, and some people practice to get damn good, and there ain't nuttin' you can do to school these people sometimes, no matter how much you know about the game. And that's 'cuz they just play better. This might mean that they know more, but maybe not. Knowledge of how to escape a trap, OTG, in-tha-air, cross-up, go into an infinite, and therefore, theoretically win, sometimes just isn't enough. There's also raw skill. Even if luck is one of your skills. So just practice more, and if you're playing to win, as TheBadass JJ insinuates you should, you won't learn much fast from lower-level kids' play. Jack up the Dif. level on the game, and experience some hurt, if you haven't already, to get used to seeing new tricks, which inevitably prepares you for some more stuff, like better playing. And if you've already Owned on the game with the Dif. jacked, then you gotta find some good players, and take some hits, and get used to the new level of cheap if need be. The sooner you start seeing traps, etc. on a regular basis to get used to when they can and can't be pulled off, on you, the more prepared you'll be for them, and you won't get taken by surprise (and won't know what to do) and lose your 50 cents in 30 seconds by a 'cheese'. Get out there, read faqs, challege those better than you to learn faster and callous yourself to their tricks, maybe get your ass kicked, maybe play 'til your fingers blister as some do, and abuse the training to find better tricks if you're looking to win by trap/cheese, and train to get skilled, and then get back to the arcade and Own.

[JJ "The Badass"]

the thing to note about mvc2 is glitches aren't a big part of the game, traps usually are though. the only real glitch i see implemented is the juggernaut glitch where you do a power up and then switch him out and his assist does insane damage (hence 100 percent combos). i myself drove 2 hours through a blizzard to play jack the FOB and seth killian and shogun17 at mvc2 and cvs2. did i win? like maybe 3 or 4 times that day...did i count it a bad experience? hell no! i'm going to do it against as soon as shogun's down for it. by saying "i won't use this character, i don't need this tactic, ect cause its cheap" you've just handicapped yourself against serious players who will stop at nothing to win. reading seth killian's article "Domination 101" on http://www.shoryuken.com will expand your horizons on thinking about what it takes to be really competitive. i myself am hopelessly competitive "just ask bokutou" and constantly try to improve my skills and seek real competition. i try to teach people but its hard if they don't or can't go home and practice something i tought them until they get it right. its very rough in a place like where i live where the arcade has virtually nothing to play and no competition at all. basically what i'm saying is, if you play someone who is going to do dastardly things to you, you'll quickly let go of the scrubby idea known as honor and play to win. yes honor is scrubby, and it will always ensure you'll lose to a real player. if you don't want to be a real player then that's fine. just because some of us do, doesn't mean we're "cheap".

[Bokutou]

Yeah, JJ is right. Playing with honor will get you 6 feet under in the Versus realm. If you want a game that uses only honor, with no cheap-ing in it, you've apparently written a game where there's only 1 character. with 1 move. Cheap-ing has become integral to the fighting game genre because if you want fast fury of combo madness with lots of projectiles and whatever cool stuff else, you're going to imbue more possiblilties for cheap in the game. In the versus engine, you should play to have fun, but if you also aren't playing to win, step down 'cuz you'll get Owned. If you have no problem with losing and that by not playing to win, hey, that's your perogative. If someone can 'cheap you out', and you're a good player, most likely that's a good tactic to use to win. Learn it and use it against other schmucks who are unsuspecting possibly. (Be wary of using something you've picked up from someone to use back at them [for a taste of their own medicine as it were] because if they can pull it off, most likely they've used it enough to see a weakness in it, but perhaps not.) If someone plays something to be cheap, then why not mirror the team and see who's 'cheap'ness is better. (Ever see 6 Anakaris [alpha call-in] on the screen at once, just for comedy's sake, if nothing else? ^_~) I'm not saying mirroring is the way to win. But it does let you see who's 'Team Whatever' is good, and lets you try a trick, when you see one pulled off, immediately, to try to grasp the mechanics of it. Most people call that Learning. It's mostly for those who are showing you new tricks with a team and explaining how to do it, and not for competition. But anyway, Before I went AWoL from my thesis here.. If someone plays something to be cheap, playing 'with honor' by not picking something that wins is, as JJ says, your own handicap and downfall. If winning means cheap, then hey, I can stand to go against weaker teams for competition/ tourneys/ whatever, if I'm looking to win. So if one person can play a cheap team, that doesn't mean that you can't play that same team that the victor did next time around, if you think they won by cheap-ness. You can use any team that anyone else does, you know. Cheaping is power. Having power is winning. Winning can make you a Badass. Being a Badass is the Shiz-nit.

[Anime_duck]

actually fighting games can have honor without all those limits. it's just about character balance. if characters are blanced properly, then cheapness goes down, and honor goes up.

MVC2 is one of the most unbalanced games in my opinion (mostly because of it's game mechanics) so then there become cheap attacks, combos, and stratagies. i look at games such as Alpha 3 or Darkstalkers or Rival Schools, and i see those as fairly balanced games that make you want to play against people (MVC2 is also a game i like to play against others, mostly because of the ease against the computer).

yes there are ways around cheapness, in all forms. but i'm someone who plays with honor i guess. i dont' like using cheap tactics, even against the computer. yes i know it will get me burried in tournament play. but i'm not playing for that, i'm playing to enjoy my time. and i feel that being cheap, isn't fun for me or my opponent. but this is my opinion, and everyones entitled to theirs..

[Bokutou]

Well, as I said, 'cheaping' has become an integral part of the game. You just don't have too many games that are /perfectly/ balanced. But cheaping, as it were, has become so integral, that it's not really cheap playing anymore. It's just playing the game. Do I play characters with more 'Cheap' possibilities than others? No. I play whoever I'm not sick of playing. Even if it's 2 Rolls and a servbot, and I get Owned for it. I wouldn't use 'cheap' combos on newbies, 'cuz it doesn't teach them anything about the game, since they aren't well adjusted to mechanics yet to realy learn from it. But against someone like JJ, who's looking for a good fight, and if I was to play a character with 'cheap' possiblities, I'd use them. He'd want a challenge, and not giving him that is practically disgrace and not very honoring of Him, anyway. Playing without some characters' moves isn't honor, it's just handicapping yourself.
As for Darkstalkers being balanced.. I hope you aren't referring to Vampire Savior. (DS3 in USA on PSX.) or maybe you haven't seen Donovan's potential. And I don't even want to go into talking about Morrigan in that game. I think that's just illegal in some places, but I could be wrong.

[Anime_duck]

i hate to say it, but yeah, cheaping is becoming a part of games. and yeah it's becoming less and less cheap, but it's still annoying as heck.

as for playing as who you feel like, that's the attitude i tend to have. and occasionally you just make up teams based on loose concepts, and sometimes that's just a blast.

and i don't limit myself from using a move, i limit how i use it. like if i was playing cable, i wouldn't use the HP X4 viper beam, hyper viper beam combo, but i may mix it up so it's a bit more fair to opponents (unless they are masters at the game, because then sometimes its my only chance.... and they know better.)

but i do mean i won't jump in, have you block a kick, and then throw you. that i dont' think is fair, so i don't use it.

and yeah i admit Morrigan and Donovan are a bit unbalanced, (Morrigan has like 6 supers....) but it's no where as bad as MVC2.

[JJ "The Badass"]

ok guess i got a few things to address here, though i must admit bokutou is handling himself nicely (probably in more ways than one). anyway he's also very correct about the darkstalkers 1 man top tier being morrigan...once i got serious about the game and discovered some sick advantages, people who used to give me competition just became nothing. as for street fighter alpha 3, i'm just gonna assume you don't play v-ism and have no idea how ridiculous the 90 percent life combos actually get. in tourney play alpha 3 is a v-ism bonanza chock full of custom combo craziness. as for playing with cable i really encourage you to face me doing fpx5 into viper beam over and over again and see how quickly it lasts... hell i'll play omega red, colossus, and zangief how's that? i'll show you there's a strategy around anything so maybe you won't feel so cheap about using him, eh? then i'll pull out storm/cable/cyc and give you a taste of ahvb x 3 insta killing a character, and if i'm doing really well i just might guard break you into one. but even with all this "unbeatably cheap" stuff why is it that i can't even begin to stand up to shogun17 and jack the FOB? they can beat me easily with almost sentinel alone, where as i'm completely untouchable by the average players standards. somehow they've found a way around my "invincible" cheap tactics and crush me into the ground even using juggs, hulk, and random guy....its because they're more skilled and cheapness doesn't even begin to come into play. capcom vs snk 2...if you're not playing sagat, blanka, yamazaki, or bison (in that order) then you're probably not aware they're insanely good. sure the other characters stand a good chance (well some of them) but those are what win tourneys pretty much. i could go on and on about what characters and games have what but that's not my point..the point is duck the word cheap is something only used by scrubs (the skilled players term for a person horribly skilled and not learning to get better or stiving to have a better understanding of the game) when referring to an advanced tactic. really the only things that i guess are "truly cheap" would be the gambit glitch and magentos dead-body-infinite. so throw off your shackles! rid yourself of the word cheap! stive to learn and become a BADASS!

[Anime_duck]

i have no problems learning in games. heck, how you improve is by loosing to better players than you. Learning which attacks work and which ones don't (and yes i know that viper beam combo does have a weakness, i've beaten it many a time by people who truly would be scrubs). but i guess one of my problems is that each of these losses, first off, aren't fun. it's not a massive beating that i learn something from, and second, it's costing me 50 cents each time i lose (i don't have a home copy...) so instead of working out a way to beat the guy over an hour or so i'm left shelling out bucks for time i'm not having fun in. as i said before, if your not having fun, why play.

[Bokutou]

If you're escaping some vile combos, traps, etc, and still get your ass kicked, then most beat-downs that you get shouldn't be useless. If it's really /that/ bad of a beat-down for you to not learn anything, after allegedly learning the game well enough and understanding mechanics to do so, then at least you're getting practice. Otherwise, you should learn a little, at least, or improve skill, even slightly, from such a beat-down. If getting schooled that bad is, to quote, "not fun," then I'd suggest shelling out the cash for a home version and maybe a type of fighter-stick (unless you're good at learning on a pad, and then putting what you've learned to use on a stick at the arcade) and get yourself some FAQs and some time, and practice. If you're not into the whole at-home thing, or for some reason aren't able to, then losing 50 cents a game to learn only a little, if that, is what you're stuck with for now, Duck.

[Anime_duck]

i know... and i've been searching for dreamcasts and copies of the game around here (so has my friend) and no luck is to be found. everytime i have cash (or games) to get a dreamcast, they dont' have any, but when i don't have the bucks they got more than they want (which leave the store in about 3 hours) so i just have to keep trying. and the loosing 50 cents to learn would work, if the really skilled people played anymore. now i'm lucky to get any opponet besides the comp. and that can barely hold my attention anymore. (and where they did have really good players to go against got rid of the game for Artic Thunder, i think we got ripped big time...)

[JJ "The Badass"]

1 word duck....ebay
i got my dc for 70 bucks and i burned a
copy of mvc2 with custom music (which
if anyone wants to know how I've recently
come across a FAQ on how to do it but I
haven't tried it)

[Anime_duck]

hmmm... must look into it when i get money...

[JJ "The Badass"]

have any of you successfully done storm's triangle dash infinite or cyclop's relaunching infinite? i'd bet not...know why? cause they're FUCKIN HARD!

[Bonus-kun]

In case this hasn't been mentioned before, infinites in MvC2 are apparently broken up around the fourtieth hit by a pseudo-dizzy. So while there are certainly 100% combos, there aren't really any "true" infinites.

-PVC