Harumphf!

Postby Pinot on Thu Jul 26, 2001 9:34 am

Okay, now I'm the bitch of Toontalk again. That's fine. I don't care.<P>I DO care that I'm losing Jon on this project. I can't even write Cloud8, cause I just start tearing up, knowing that he's not going to draw them. It hurts! It stinks.
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Postby Pinot on Thu Jul 26, 2001 10:35 am

Well, I just talked to Jon via email and Lee by phone this morning. Tomorrow, Lee is going to forward my script to those two illustrators. We'll see.<P>You know, here Mr. Anonymous keeps comparing a writer/artist partnership to a marriage. And he's right, it is a similarly close mutually dependent relationship. I've worked with Jon for four years. We were in this together. And now, suddenly, there's a syndication offer. And he's not part of it. <P>I wonder what Mr. Fran Anonymous would do if he unexpectedly lost his wife. Would he run out and immediately get a new one? I don't think so. But with his young kids (yes, I know who he is), he'd HAVE to get someone to help. Maybe someone who can cook, clean, watch the kids... HIRED HELP. Not an emotional attachment, not a partnership. Something business. <P><crying> I guess when it all comes down, I just don't want to do this.
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Postby Pinot on Thu Jul 26, 2001 10:37 am

Well, I just talked to Jon via email and Lee by phone this morning. Tomorrow, Lee is going to forward my script to those two illustrators. We'll see.<P>You know, here Mr. Anonymous keeps comparing a writer/artist partnership to a marriage. And he's right, it is a similarly close mutually dependent relationship. I've worked with Jon for four years. We were in this together. And now, suddenly, there's a syndication offer. And he's not part of it. <P>I wonder what Mr. Fran Anonymous would do if he unexpectedly lost his wife. Would he run out and immediately get a new one? I don't think so. But with his young kids (yes, I know who he is), he'd HAVE to get someone to help. Maybe someone who can cook, clean, watch the kids... HIRED HELP. Not an emotional attachment, not a partnership. Something business. <P>I guess when it all comes down, I just don't want to do this. [crying]
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Postby Pinot on Thu Jul 26, 2001 10:40 am

whups. sorry it posted twice. All I did was hit enter when I put in the password and it went berserck.<P>Guess I need to go to bed.
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Postby Yupyop on Fri Jul 27, 2001 6:10 am

Pinot, if you are Toontalk's bitch you are a hell of a popular one. I, like some people posted, enjoy reading your posts when you get ticked off by someone like ASwS. But I worry that you might not be having as much fun as us spectators. Thats one of the reasons I was quiet. I felt both sides overgeneralize. Every strip is different. I doubt the syndicates take 50% from Jim Davis, Lynn Johnston, etc. The syndicates take what they need to make a profit while keeping their most popular cartoonists happy.
As for the writer vs artist, again it depends on the situation. One of my favorite Hollywood stories involves director Frank Capra. Robert Riskin wrote most of Capra's most popular movies. One day fed up with Capra's ego, Riskin dropped 200 blank pieces of paper on Capra's desk and told him to put "the Capra touch" on that! We are paid what we are worth to whoever is paying us. What is fair has little meaning in this cruel world.
Which brings me to Jon and CLOUD 8. It is in the best interest of Jon that you get CLOUD 8 syndicated. The two of you have a project that is more likely to succeed if CLOUD 8 is syndicated. You know from experience how much easier it is to sell your second comic (or third in JAMES case) than your first.
The next time you have to deal with someone like ASwS try to have as much fun as the rest of us are having reading your posts.
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Postby Pinot on Fri Jul 27, 2001 8:47 am

Thanks Wimpy and Yup. You make me feel better.<P>Esp. since I just saw the new note by Inksplot. I don't know what to make of it. I guess it's like you say, Yup, that he's just having fun with it. <P>Yes, I was purposely talking generalities. In fact, I framed the whole thing as a hypothetical and didn't intend to get personal with it. But then Anal-ymous starts accusing me of exploiting artists and being greedy. Of course it depends on the situation! That's what Darrin said immediately, and I agreed. But Anal just kept coming. That's why I believe it was "Fran". Fran has targeted me since the moment he started posting.<P>I copied and sent Inksplot's note to Jon. It will be interesting to see what his response to me will be. I doubt he will respond in the forum. He's always thought I'm an idiot to waste my time on Comicsedge or Toontalk.<P>Though, when we were invited to be on Comicsedge, before it ever started, and I turned the "opportunity" down, Jon wasn't happy with me. But after it started and he saw what it was like, he kept thanking me for my wise choice! <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"><P>I've come to accept that I don't fit with cartoonists. I obviously don't think like one when it comes the business aspects of it all. I'm sure it makes me seem terribly mercenary about comics. But money isn't why I'm doing this. Very few people get rich of comics, after all! I want a strip for the same reason anybody else does, for artistic expression, to have a voice, and to make people smile.<P>They talk about me not respecting artists. It's oh so obvious that cartoonists don't even BEGIN to think of ME as an artist. I'm not a gag writer, because I do so much more than that. But I'm not a cartoonist, because I do less. What am I? <P>You see? I don't fit.<P>Not only that, it's like they're just waiting for me to fail, almost like they want me to. Not ONE person on Toontalk has congratulated me for getting so close to a syndicate deal. Not one. And then I get this backhanded stuff from syndicated people like lpsguy about how it's impossible to have a successful writer/artist team, but more power to me for trying...pat pat.<P>Can you imagine what a target I'm going to be if my panel becomes successful?!<P>Anyway, thank you yup for saying that people enjoy my posts, but frankly, I've felt increasingly unwelcome there. <P>Good idea about looking at Cloud8 as an opportunity for me and Jon to get something together. It's true that we'll have a lot better shot at syndication if Cloud8 is successful. My PLAN is for our Sunday panel to be launched with Cloud8, but in all honesty, it's a long shot. <P>Hell, what isn't a long shot in this business! <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
<P>
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Postby Wimpystuntmen on Fri Jul 27, 2001 11:24 am

These boards can be destructive at times. I read through all that at toontalk (at work mind you so not as closely as I'd like). Don't worry about the bitch thing, I didn't see it like that - just two people with differing opinions/views.<P>I know Jon means a lot. Lets just see how it turns out. Most people over there don't realise your relationship with Jon.<P>On a brighter note, Elephant Tales is dropping to 2 days a week because I've finally got off my butt and started working on my new strip. I'll keep doing the old panel purely for the practice and because I have a large back log of stuff written over the years which I want to display just for the sake of it). <P>If the strip doesn't work in concept then I'll move on to something else. The hardest thing is letting go of one's concepts (especially favourites), but there's only so much time in the day and you have to decide what you want to focus on. Elephant Tales has had its run. Now its time for something else to have a go.<P>Stay tuned for more details in coming weeks.....<P>BTW, good luck with whatever happens tomorrow.
Keep me posted. You know its intimate over here. We'll keep it hush hush.
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Postby Yupyop on Sat Jul 28, 2001 7:13 am

There are 211 members at Toontalk. Mark Tatulli is only a few of them. There are people out there who enjoy pushing other people's buttons. The only answer I've found to them is to ignore them. I never cared who Fran is. Being a professional cartoonist does not make you an all knowing expert. That is why I chose Yupyop for my nickname when Mike is taken. Yupyop was a character in Jack Kent's comic KING AROO (1950-65). He was advisor to the King and usually thought he knew more than he really did. Because Yupyop was an expert the King always believed him despite the fact Yupyop was rarely right.
You are right I should have congratulated you about CLOUD 8. Often the board is distracted. No one ever welcomed me at Toontalk, there was never the opportunity. I don't know about cartoonists, but here in Hollywood to congratulate you would risk jinxing the product. But I should have least said, "Break a pen!". Sorry.
I'm still experimenting over at Toontalk. I have been disappointed with the threads regarding certain comics such as THE NORM, FUSCO BROTHERS, and GET FUZZY. Without a response from the cartoonist, feedback is no fun. There are some at Toontalk such as all of us here I think of as e-friends, others are just e-acquaintances, and a few such as D.J. Coffman are e-annoying. To me Toontalk is like the comics page, a little to love, a little to hate, and alot to be indifferent to.
You are needed here. Until Jeff quits clowning around and starts showing a new comic everyday we've got to find things to discuss here on my twice-a-day visits.
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Postby Pinot on Sat Jul 28, 2001 10:32 am

211 members, 'eh? Does it say that somewhere? I must have missed it.<P>I know what you're saying Mike, but I'm not much of a mingler. Like at parties, I tend to talk to just a few people the whole time. You try that on Toontalk and you have all these idiots horning in on the conversation, taking over and being obnoxious. I should be better at ignoring certain people, I guess, but I'm not. That's why I quit going to other threads when that deranged schitzo Pawnbroker took over. The best way for me to ignor it is to not subject myself to it.<P>Then people you'd LIKE to talk to don't respond. Like Darrin hardly says anything any more. I'm sure he's just too busy. What happened to Martok?<P>I'm happy to stay here on this site, poke my head in every once in awhile. Honestly, I've spent WAY too much time on Toontalk. And for what? It's not like I'm learning anything new. It's basically the same ol' stuff over and over on ANY board. I've spent almost 6 years researching cartooning...I think I know enough now. MORE than I ever really wanted to in some cases! <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"><P>I learned the most from chatting one on one with syndicated cartoonist who use email. Boy, if I weren't a Christian, could I tell you stories! <g> Cartoonists are an odd lot. I think working by themselves, with very little human interaction, takes its toll mentally and emotionally. Honestly! I'm not kidding.<P>Jeff, you've probably announced this elsewhere, but I haven't read all the threads here. What's your new strip about? I think you're right to move on to something new. Gosh, I honestly can't count how many different concepts I've had. It's a mistake to marry yourself to them, IMO.<P>Be sure to try to limit the number of characters to two in the beginning. Make the strip "CHARACTER DRIVEN", Lee's favorite two words. That's the #1 thing they look for. Humor, believe it or don't, is #2. All the syndicates SAY being funny is #1. Baloney. I don't know how many times I got letters that said, Funny! But what about character development?<P>Make the characters distinct. Then with EVERY DAY's gag answer these two questions: What are these characters' personalities? What is there relationship to each other? Reveal those answers every day to readers and your strip will be syndicatable. Not that that's a real word, but you know what I mean.<P>Looking forward to seeing it!
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Postby Pinot on Sun Jul 29, 2001 3:34 am

Hey, I did it! I just deleted Toontalk from my bookmarks. Feels GOOD! <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wimpystuntmen:
<B>Dawn, you never mentioned how the meeting regarding Cloud 8 went?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, it really wasn't a meeting. Lee just said he was going to contact the two illustrators he has in mind. One is on the East Coast and the other on the West Coast.<P>Lee said he'd call me Friday and let me know, but I didn't hear from him. He's an extremely busy guy, so that's not unusual. I'll probably get an email from him about it some time this week. <P>I'll let ya'll know how it progesses. <P>Have a good week! Dawn<P>
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Postby Yupyop on Sun Jul 29, 2001 4:21 am

Well, I was going to mention how the member number is in the upper right corner of Toontalk title page but I don't want to tempt Dawn now that she's got that monkey of her back. Think of this place as part of your 12-step program <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
Jeff, I'm a slave driver of a fan. Just want you to appreciate the sweet sensitive souls at your future syndicate!
Try to hold up under all the pressure to keep me entertained. Next Sunday I begin a two week vacation and don't expect to spend much time on the internet. With Dawn to keep you company, you may enjoy my vacation more than me, nitpicking Mike <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
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Postby Wimpystuntmen on Sun Jul 29, 2001 11:14 am

Mike, twice a day. So you're responsible for keeping my hits up. Please don't put that pressure on me - Elephant Tales will continue as I have alot written but it'll be more for art practice than anything else - I really want to make it visually more impressive. It's time to move on to a new concept though.<P>From now on I'll be working through concepts and asking for feedback, sending out submissions, and moving on if not successful. I think Dawn brings alot of realism to the world of cartooning and I really appreciate that.<P>The new strip is titled Clown Town, and it does primarily feature 2 characters (although I already have a few other characters waiting in the wings). I'm enjoying doing a strip. I don't know if its a syndicatable idea but like I said I'll make one submission and see what feedback I get. <P>Dawn, you never mentioned how the meeting regarding Cloud 8 went?
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Postby Throbbin Johnny on Mon Jul 30, 2001 2:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>btw, what do ya'll think of Guy Gilchrist's work? I just ran across his URL again last night when I was dumping more bookmarks. He'd be perfect for Cloud 8, IMO. I wonder if his name would help or hurt sales???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>uhhh...funny story here. Guy stopped in to Comics Edge last fall, to participate in a thread, of content Johnny can't remeber. Johnny-<I>as Joltman2k</I>-inadvertently insulted Guy by saying that inoffensive comics like Mudpie
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Postby Throbbin Johnny on Mon Jul 30, 2001 5:05 am

Boy, Johnny goes away for the weekend, and a good thread like this starts!<P>Dawn...you're done with ToonTalk? Say it ain't so! Johnny always enjoys you're posts, whether Johnny agrees with your POV or not. Don't let Anonymous-Fran bother you. For a syndicated cartoonist, he sure is a cynical sob, and not very supportive of aspiring toonist. DJ laced into him pretty well, as well as helping to reveal his identity...one that Johnny has long suspected. Since DJ and Johnny "spit in the face of adversity", no Fran 151 posts...but Anonymous appears. <P>IJO, Heart of the City is a medicore toon, right at home with many other medicore toons. Sure, Mark's syndicated, but he seems a bit arrogant, especially in a forum of toon fans!! F-HIM! Darrin, DJ and Dave have all been very cool to us, and it's appreciated.<P>Stick to your guns re: your project. Hopefully, the team of you and Jon will enjoy success on another toon.<P>"Always Throbbin', always Johnny" <P>
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Postby Yupyop on Mon Jul 30, 2001 5:58 am

I wouldn't blame Joltman, Johnny. Guy was there is express his admiration for Eric Gignac's RED CHILE MOON. Eric was among us for the last days of CE as Duckman No. 7. Guy hired Eric to do coloring for MUDPIE. MUDPIE is now syndicate by Copley.
Dawn, I prefer Eric's work over Guy's. The link section at CE still works, maybe you can find his email address there if you want to give him a chance.<P>
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Postby Pinot on Mon Jul 30, 2001 6:16 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dawn...you're done with ToonTalk? Say it ain't so!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Aww, but it is so. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Johnny always enjoys you're posts, whether Johnny agrees with your POV or not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, thanks, Johnny. I'm sure there's much more to enjoy there than me, though.<P>Yeah, I never cared for Heart of the City. It's terribly boring. The drawing in good, but the writing isn't, IMO. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Stick to your guns re: your project. Hopefully, the team of you and Jon will enjoy success on another toon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, we actually decided last night to set it aside for awhile. He's just started back to college, and I think he's a bit burned out by comics right now. Honestly, I think his feelings are still hurt about Cloud 8, though he's a male and would never admit it!<P>The winery is keeping me more than busy right now, and I'll soon be working with a new artist, I hope, so that will take time as well. Only so many hours in a day, unfortunately!<P>btw, what do ya'll think of Guy Gilchrist's work? I just ran across his URL again last night when I was dumping more bookmarks. He'd be perfect for Cloud 8, IMO. I wonder if his name would help or hurt sales??? Mudpie is much more blatantly religious than I ever want Cloud 8 to be. But he's a good cartoonist, well respected... He has tons of stuff going on already, but he seems to like it that way! Cloud 8 really shouldn't talk long to draw. Hmmmmm.....
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Postby Throbbin Johnny on Tue Jul 31, 2001 3:43 am

Dawn...you'll be happy to know that a thread has been dedicated to your leaving ToonTalk. People miss you! Inkblot must be lurking(post once in awhile, Inky!), as he started the thread and made public your leaving. Maybe you could stop in at ToonTalk for one more round of toons from the tap? Johnny's buying?...<P>Boy...you sure do rate! A whole thread started on a not-made-public-departure...Johnny would probably get a "finally he's leaving!!"...<P>"Throbbin' Johnny
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Postby Pinot on Tue Jul 31, 2001 4:49 am

No, I don't think that guy's lurking here. He's written me a few times privately. A couple of days ago he asked if I would critique his strip if he posted the link on Toontalk. I told him I wasn't coming there anymore and should just send me the URL. Of course, he asked me why. <P>I hope he's not lurking here, 'cause I have to say, I think he's kinda weird.<P>Not that you aren't, Johnny! Don't worry, I think you're plenty weird, so rest assured. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"><P>
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Postby Pinot on Tue Jul 31, 2001 4:51 am

Yeah, Mike, I remember Red Chile Moon. Yes, very nice art. I'll put him on my backup list if these two Lee is checking into don't work out.<P>Thanks for the suggestion!
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Postby Pinot on Wed Aug 01, 2001 2:59 am

I got an email from Steve Skelton today. Do ya'll know his work? He does a panel called Loose Nuts. It's been self-syndicated for five years. He's looking for a writer, Wimpy, to help with a strip he's developing. Maybe you should contact him, give him your URL. I didn't get to see his comics, but it sounds like ya'll have a similar sense of humor.<P>I told him my plate is full, but I'll be happy to look at his stuff and make suggestions. He's going to send it to me in the mail, since I couldn't open his attachments.<P>I happened to talk to Lee this afternoon and asked if he knows Steve. Lee's very familiar with his work and likes his drawing style. He likes Loose Nuts, too, but thinks it's too similar to stuff they already have. I suggested that maybe they use Loose Nuts gags to replace the Far Side calendars. At least there's a market there. And I need SOMEthing to replace the usual Far Side desk cube in my husbands yearly Christmas stocking. Garfield ain't gonna cut it! <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"><P>One of the artists Lee contacted is on vacation till Sunday. He's been playing phone tag with the other, so still no word on that. <P>
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