how innocent is Hopkins?

Tyre · Post by **Tyre** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 2:19 am

i've just read about three story lines, and they say this to me:Hopkins is a malicious pervert who uses Christianity as a cover and excuse for indulging his sickness. (That's just a judgment based on the strips, folks. Maybe in reality he's a wonderful -- but severely misguided -- guy. But I sort of doubt it. )I'm not saying damnation isn't a part of the deal in the faith, and that it isn't the most horrible thing a soul could suffer. It certainly is.But why does Hopkins choose to represent damnation so titillatingly? He lovingly shows every kind of horrible bodily suffering in graphic detail. We hear nothing about love or compassion, from God or people. It's all divine punishment, wrath, vengeance, spilled guts. Hopkin's preoccupations are basically the same as any teenaged would-be satanist. Oh, and Fnar is basically a cop-out for Hopkins. Since Fnar is totally innocent, he lacks compassion as well as the ability to suffer. That is why he is effectively so cruel, even though technically, he can't be. He seems to be a way for Hopkins to excuse himself from having to be compassionate. Never mind that compassion is absolutely central to Christianity ('God so loved the world...' etc.). We'll just put that aside as we stroke ourselves to images of extreme violence, all the while pretending that we're defending what's right and good.

Bluesman · Post by **Bluesman** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 4:26 am

Well then, don't read the strip if you feel that way, instead of dropping Troll posts here. (please folks, don't indulge this individual anymore than this reply)

Aryn the Fox · Post by **Aryn the Fox** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 4:32 am

...
really.
And may I ask why someone would read a webcomic and then feel the urge to come in, cross a-blazing and preach to the masses the evil in Mr. Hopkins' work? Why must one read so deeply into a comic (with their odd and ultimately perverted biases) as to extract such twisted meanings and sides to the characters?Aside from what I've stated previously, I also must make comments from my OWN opinion... It seems to me that Mr. Hopkins is simply creating a story from an already elaborate web of stories made to inspire fear and perhaps produce faith... like those used in the early years of Christianity in Europe?
I agree that compassion is central to Christianity. However, in Europe's dark ages, where the bible was raped, ravaged and re-written to suit ruler's needs, an ultimate Hell of evil, pain, and torture was created for the evil Pagans who refused to convert. For those who would always remain Martyrs- for those who refused to accept the Pope's reign.... I won't even begin to speak of the Inquisition. SO. MY interpretation of Hopkins' hell is simply a setting, it does not exist. Tyre, if your obviously ill mind must interpret such a setting and still beginning and growing storyline as something perverted and childish, then I suggest you speak to someone who may give you a touch of religious insight. It is belittling of oneself to make such horrible comments and accusations before the full plot and story of the comic comes to maturity.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tyre:
 We hear nothing about love or compassion, from God or people. It's all divine punishment, wrath, vengeance, spilled guts. Hopkin's preoccupations are basically the same as any teenaged would-be satanist.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I ask, did you post this before reading "Trixi and Tet" or "A night at Aloests'"?

David Platypus Formosa · Mon Nov 05, 2001 5:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tyre:

i've just read about three story lines, and they say this to me:Hopkins is a malicious pervert who uses Christianity as a cover and excuse for indulging his sickness.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll put no judgment on the word pervert,
because to me there is no dishouner in
calling someone a pervert.However I would question the word "Malicious"
and also the accusation that he is sick.Does he act with the intent to cause harm?
Not at all, his art entertains and provides
cathisis. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tyre:

(That's just a judgment based on the strips, folks. Maybe in reality he's a wonderful -- but severely misguided -- guy. But I sort of doubt it. )
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
From the fact that he is able to attract a
number of very good freands. I would think
that he is a nice guy. Never confuse someones
art for what they are.A good artist is creative enought to draw on
parts of himself that he normaly would not
express in real life. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tyre:

I'm not saying damnation isn't a part of the deal in the faith, and that it isn't the most horrible thing a soul could suffer. It certainly is.But why does Hopkins choose to represent damnation so titillatingly? He lovingly shows every kind of horrible bodily suffering in graphic detail.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There are meany classic depictions of hell
just as bloody just as titillating as Mr Hopkins'.Does this make it right? Perhaps, perhaps
not. But it does show the tradition that
he is comming from. Jack is at its core
a morality play. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tyre:

We hear nothing about love or compassion, from God or people.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Love and compassion are centril theams in
Jack. There is the Love that Trixi and Tet
shared. There is the love that Arloest has
that she is willing to suffer hell rather
then let anouther die.There is the compassion that Jack has for
his charges and the compassion that Farrago
has for Jack. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tyre:

It's all divine punishment,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hard to avoid devine punishment when your
talking about hell. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tyre:

wrath,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And wrath is the centril charitor. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tyre:

He seems to be a way for Hopkins to excuse himself from having to be compassionate. Never mind that compassion is absolutely central to Christianity ('God so loved the world...' etc.).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><pre>
JUSTICE MOVED MY GREAT MAKER; GOD ETERNAL
WROUGHT ME: THE POWER AND THE UNSEARCHABLY
HIGH WISDOM, AND THE PRIMAL LOVE SUPERNAL
</pre>The existence of hell is an act of compassion
in itself.[This message has been edited by David Platypus Formosa (edited 11-05-2001).]

Kitarak · Post by **Kitarak** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 6:01 am

::snickers::Ahem. Sorry. People like this amuse me. I figure I can either be amused or irritated, and amusement is more fun.If he's read three storylines that would be up to and including trixi and tet, unless he counts 'dolphins' as one storyline. If he has the case then I'm simply going to assume he's an idiot and not bother attempting to argue further.If not, then I can sortof understand why it provoked this reaction. Prior to Trixi and Tet the comic did seem to be mostly shock value. It was interesting in a strange way, but it took a while to realise where it was going. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying he's right. I couldn't disagree more - Firstly because I think it's a great comic, secondly because I'm an atheist so I don't really care about how heaven/hell is represented. On the other hand I'm not surprised it got this reaction from someone who is, unless I've badly misjudged, a fundamentalist. Frankly it's lucky there aren't more of them here.Anyway, that said, he's a troll. Pure and simple. What do we do to trolls again? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif">------------------
David Prophet of his Holiness, the Almighty Chester
Keeper of the GMAHs: You don't argue with half a ton of cute, fuzzy, plasma armed killing machine.
MRFH's official interfering busybody. No - I don't mean a GM.
Check out my <A HREF="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/Forum ... 00109.html" TARGET=_blank>RPG</A>. C'mon. Please?

DJ Pirtu · Post by **DJ Pirtu** » Tue Nov 06, 2001 4:18 am

Hey, we all have a right to a opinnion. Even if it differences from the mass. I have my compassion on this Tyre guy (hope he/she reads the replys he gets).
When I started reading Jack, Tet had just found out that Trixi was dead. (Remember the parth he moaned on the floor.) Then I jumped to the two first pages and sayed to a friend next to me "Poor guy. Meets death before he is even born and now his girlfriend is dead."
My, was I wrong <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif"> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Platypus Formosa:
A good artist is creative enought to draw on
parts of himself that he normaly would not
express in real life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's what I find (at least mine) art to be all about. Expressing things that bug me. I usually just transform the feelings that I have in pictures or scenes that usualy are the startingpoint of my stories.

Tigerjuice · Post by **Tigerjuice** » Tue Nov 06, 2001 9:34 am

to mr. Tyre. ever read a comic called Preacher? Look it up, you'll finfd that everybody has there own vision of Heaven/Hell, enternal damnation, etc.. if you are ofended by David's work, simply turn away, never to look at it again. Everybody has a right to opinion, but perverted? overanalyzed.[This message has been edited by tigerjuice (edited 11-06-2001).]

McFrugal · Post by **McFrugal** » Tue Nov 06, 2001 10:20 am

Do Not Feed The Trolls.Especially those that have no clue what they're talking about.
McFrugal------------------
Frugality is key.

Bensmith6531 · Post by **Bensmith6531** » Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:19 pm

Surely if the comic entertains and evokes such emotional response from so many readers that have visited this board to say just that, then it can't be wrong.Other people have made other points and worded it better than I can but compassion and love are what the comic Jack essentially revolves around.

Starcat5 · Post by **Starcat5** » Wed Nov 07, 2001 6:50 am

To blue blazes with the Troll. Let him find a bridge somewere. Regardless of starting point, this thread is getting really interesting. Personally, I hope this guy responds again. It would be interesting to know if he actually listened with open ears, or if he's just gunna damn us all to Hell regardless. ...call it a morbid fasanation with the inner workings of the mind of a troll.

El SillY · Post by **El SillY** » Wed Nov 07, 2001 7:16 am

I find that in far to many cases the most religious people are the most dangerous. They some times seem to think that fanaticism covers up for breaking several of the "rules" set by there religion of choice, and in some cases outright brainwashing from early childhood...This is one of the many reasons why I am an atheist...P.S: I know that many religious people are very nice but some quite frankly are bastards. A lot of atheists are bastards to...------------------
To understand something it is very important to understand that understanding something is very important...

Alfador · Post by **Alfador** » Wed Nov 07, 2001 10:31 am

I had thought about starting this reply with a statement of my beliefs...but then I realized it doesn't matter. What I have to say is in the context of the strip. My beliefs about the real world shouldn't have to enter into it. That said...I think the story arcs are meant to be either tragic (as the Arloest story) or have tragedy/fear but a positive ending (like the Trixi/Tet and For No Apparent Reason stories)--they are meant to evoke emotion and actuall TELL a story. The "comic" portion comes in with the shorts. Hopkins beautifully blends tearing emotion with laugh-my-tails-off humor. The only other place I've seen such a well-written mixing of dark and light was in a story called "Star Dancer."Fnar is a wonderfully light-hearted guy; I hope someday he'll learn to help others, but also hope he'll continue to never even think about pain. His innocence is part of what makes him such a neat character: He can hold a conversation with someone being cut apart by chainsaws, or anally raped, and he is all but oblivious when he wets himself.Fnar is nice. Maybe sometime he'll learn to do nice things. Till then, tear-jerking darkness and obliviousness humor abound. I'll continue to read.------------------
Three-tailed fox, in the <A HREF="http://vcl.ctrl-c.liu.se/vcl/Artists/Alfador" TARGET=_blank>house</A>--<A HREF="http://www.alfador.8m.com" TARGET=_blank>Fox Den</A>, that is!

Troubled Youth · Post by **Troubled Youth** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 4:52 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tyre:

i've just read about three story lines, and they say this to me:Hopkins is a malicious pervert who uses Christianity as a cover and excuse for indulging his sickness. (That's just a judgment based on the strips, folks. Maybe in reality he's a wonderful -- but severely misguided -- guy. But I sort of doubt it. )
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"When you've understood this scripture, throw it away. If you cant understand this scripture, throw it away. I insist on your freedom."-Jack Kerouac
------------------
Cats yawn because they realize that there's nothing to do.

Patrick RavenWulf · Post by **Patrick RavenWulf** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 5:51 am

[edited - double post][This message has been edited by Patrick RavenWulf (edited 11-08-2001).]

Patrick RavenWulf · Post by **Patrick RavenWulf** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 6:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hopkins is a malicious pervert who uses Christianity as a cover and excuse for indulging his sickness. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How do you know this? do you know David personally? Do you know his past?are you familiar with the repercussions of judging the hearts of others, are you familiar with that scripture? or have you forgotten that one?I hope you are not one of those Christians against furries type and you are calling him a perv becaue he draws furries. If so, then your argument is weak. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>why does Hopkins choose to represent damnation so titillatingly? He lovingly shows every kind of horrible bodily suffering in graphic detail.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Because it is a frikkn' comic!!!! it would be boring if everything was hunky-dory.

Cypress · Post by **Cypress** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 12:47 pm

Can the troll feed me?

El SillY · Post by **El SillY** » Fri Nov 09, 2001 3:17 am

I wrote this for the Fat Jesus forum but it fit's in nicely whit what Azazel said so here goes (P.S It's supposed to be a poem):With out the crap would we be able to see what was good? I think not.
For is it not the darkness that makes the stars stand out?
Is it not the disease that glorifies the bliss of health?
Life is a scale of grays, the extremes define each other.
With no white what would we know of black? And with no black what would we know of white?
If we knew nothing of sadness we would know nothing of happiness,
We would slide in to the gray zones,
We would feel nothing
Know nothing
We would be blind to the world, not seeing it's beauty and not seeing the scars we caused it,
Not seeing the life we were given, not seeing the lives we have taken,
Not seeing the great things we have done,
Not seeing the great pains we have caused.
No love because there is no hate, no order because there is no chaos.
The coldness of space would not be felt since no heat would escape the stars.
No life, no death,
No hope of rebirth beyond this life, no dread of damnation.
No religion, not of Good or of Evil and no silent path for the atheist.
No day, no night
No Sun, no moon.
This is the nature of the world we live in, the world others will live in after our passing.
Guard it well, let it not slip into the gray zone...- Gray, Johan M

Yawgmoth · Post by **Yawgmoth** » Fri Nov 09, 2001 5:30 am

Damnit Tyre, He's an Artist, it's a free damn country and he's entitled to present his thoughts and ideas and express himself anyway within the confines of the law. Why don't you take your judgemental ways and shove them up your .. nose. Furthermore, you have no right to lay judgement upon Mr. Hopkins. IF your so damn afraid and intimidated by him then DONT read the comic and post your STupid BS crap on his board complaining about how he is evil and burst your happy little pink bubble of security and delusion that is Christianity. David's stories tap into all most of us fear or have some reference to. THEY are REAL <<Excluding the furries and some other obvious things.>> and they show the world as it is. I'll shall part with this quote."Now i have a message for all you good, moral, christian people. Who are complaining that breasts and Vaginas are obscene. Now don't complain to me, complain to the Manufactur. Okay. Now I know jesus told you all not to judge but i know you are all going to judge any way. So judge sanely, judge with your eyes open. What do you consider obscene. Is this obscene to you?"
Oh yeah.. Tyre.. Try Embracing the void

.------------------
"From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus the Grand Evolution began."

Azazel · Post by **Azazel** » Fri Nov 09, 2001 9:03 am

Oh boo hoo Tyre. Pathetic little worms like you are hwat is wrong with this world. If any thing you should admire the man for showing us a side of ourselves we foolishly try to cast away. For light cannot exist without darkness and we must embrace them both.
<img border="0" src="http://www.penofchaos.com/stigma/pix/pentabouc.jpg" width="350" height="418">

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Nov 09, 2001 9:57 am

Come now children... do you realise that all youre doing now is letting Tyre be the "winner"? I say, just back off the topic, we have all spent enough time defending Dave, when the fact is, we don't need to defend him.We Hopkins' fans know that Dave is awesome, and he has a real tallent. We don't need to define him to one measley little crappola kid named Tyre.Ok??? Let's instead talk of other things! Like the awesomeness of the fact that we are getting 5 comics a week now! WOO HOO!!!-------------Jen