How are you doing, comic-wise?

For discussions, announcements, non-technical questions and anything else comics-related or otherwise that doesn't fit in any of the other categories.
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Bustertheclown
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by Bustertheclown »

Humbug wrote:Speaking of reviews, El Santo actually reviewed the first run of ToP and boy did he rip it apart. I'd be lying if I said it didn't hurt. In fact it felt like he punched me in the gut, repeatedly. Watching people tear into something you put your heart and soul into is never an easy thing. :( I guess his review is one of the biggest reasons I decided to do a reboot, and I hope I'm doing it better this time.

What really confused me was that he called my style a "manga house style that’s indistinguishable from other wannabe manga artists." I dunno, coming from an Asian country manga style is the norm, and of all my collegemates my style was the least manga-looking. I guess the digitally handpainted style of the reboot is a bit of a kneejerk reaction to his comment. :P
It's likely that he assumed that you are an American with an Asian name, and so was less forgiving because he assumed your work is a Western affectation of an Eastern style. Maybe not, though. More likely, from the looks of it, he decided to take the opportunity to sharpen his claws. My biggest problem with blog reviewers on the whole is that there is rarely any editorial filter, and his review is a prime example of that problem. Critics don't review as an exercise in coming up with as many ways to say shitty things about somebody's work as is possible in ten paragraphs, and critics with editors generally aren't going to get something so lacking in substance through to the public. If you've taken the time to go through somebody's work, and then write about it, then why be so cheap about it? Insults are so easy to write that they have become the common currency of internet discourse. There is no quality to it, though; it is not an art. It's lazy.

I'm sure that after five years, this guy has gotten better at reviewing, or at least I hope so. However, what he wrote about your efforts in 2008 is pure garbage. See? Insults are easy. Reboot if you like, but I hope that there's more behind it than that one smug, trashy piece of writing that has spurred you into it. After all, what would be the point in that? Getting some random hater to like you? That's not a good reason at all.
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by Humbug »

Nah, I didn't reboot just to please El Santo, I was already having misgivings about ToP and he actually helped me come to a decision. So I'm much more pleased with how ToP is going now. It actually has direction. :)

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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by McDuffies »

I feel like making a webcomic review site where I'd write only positive reviews, if only I had free time. I would try to make a selection by pointing at the good ones. If I haven't written about you, you probably suck.
Sortelli wrote:all I remember is his name was William G and we were arguing over modern art ... I think he left shortly afterward so you might find it by looking up his last posts?
I totally guessed who you were talking about, even though I don't remember the incident.

edit: W o w. I just found another thread where William G makes me embarassed as a traditional artist.
Forget about him. Despite his vocabulary, he was basically an internet troll, and everybody hated him. He seemed to be literally everywhere webcomic related, and always saying awful things that started fights and made him enemies by bulk.
Komiyan wrote:
Sortelli wrote:okay on the thread topic, I am absolutely thrilled with how using a tablet lets me make badly needed edits to pages as I am working on them:
http://sortelli.deviantart.com/art/Page ... -379714929

paper is deeeeaaaaad to meeeeee
Same, I switched to full digital after getting one of these babies and I haven't looked back since. For speed, it just makes all the difference.
That looks like the most awesome thing that's ever been invented, with the possible exception of wheel and fire.
But I can never give up on paper. Without it, there's be no origami.

Also I have to get back to the rape thing one more time:
JSConner800 wrote:It just creeps me the hell out, and all I meant was that I wouldn't want to be in Cuddly's position of choosing the "best" of the rapey BL comics on Smackjeeves. If the way I phrased this sounds offensive to people who are into those kinds of comics, then that's an unfortunate side-effect of my tunnel vision on this issue. I doubt that opinion is going to change any time soon, as I have a hard time equating Loony Tunes with rape comics, but then again, I grew up on the former, and should probably admit to never having read the latter, even after I began arguing against it. I probably should have done at least some research into what I was talking about, but I think I already covered the fact that I haven't been choosing my words carefully here.
I'm thinking of a reason of why Loony Tunes are different on fundamental level from rapey comics, and the thing that comes to mind is Pepe Le Pew. His cartoons are basically extended sexual harrasment scenes, right? Does that thing fly because:
1. They were actually funny and well-done, and you're more likely to excuse something that's well-done?
2. It was made in times when these things weren't perceived as that bad?
3. characters from that cartoon were completely assexual and couldn't have been objects of sexual fantasy (but some furries actually do fetishize those cartoons these days)
4. Pepe Le Pew was not a sympathetic character. He was clearly annoying, narcissistic and a major nuisance all over. But I don't think he was meant to appear as creepy as he may be percieved today.
5. They never went as far as these comics do.
6. Pepe Le Pew telegraphs that his story is removed from real life while these comics at least keep semplance of real life situations.
I dunno. Pick any.
Still, I can't help being puzzled by various changing standards that are at play there. I'd hate to think that we should reevaluate Loony Tunes cartoons based on current, ephemeral standards of what's appropriate (and we all know how well that went with Speedy Gonzales). I think that a character like Pepe was always meant to have a sinister note. That animators of that time understood well that humor can, and should also come from dark places.

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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by Isukiyomi »

Comic wise? After life imposed hiatus >__> Tehuti is concluding this summer and Michiko Monogatari has 8 more chapters to its completion (spent part of the hiatus writing all the remaining chapters of both comics). Once Tehuti is done, I'll be redrawing all the old chapters so that the artistic jump is less glaring XD
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by Bustertheclown »

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:
For more reminiscent good times before I was born, there's this thread where you and William G have words,
Going through the front part of that conversation, I am reminded of two things:

1. That Yeahduff is a smart cookie. I hope he makes a million dollars.

2. I used to have the biggest secret internet crush on Mimo. I hope she's making a million dollars.
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I bet they made a million keenbucks.
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by Terotrous »

McDuffies wrote: I think that a character like Pepe was always meant to have a sinister note. That animators of that time understood well that humor can, and should also come from dark places.
I don't really think so. To me, the joke is that Pepe is a total casanova and a great lover (that's why he's french, everyone knows the french are great lovers), but since he smells so terrible no girl can stand him. It's been shown a number of times that if he was to lose his stink or Penelope was to lose her sense of smell, they'd be inseparable.

The comedy largely derives from the fact that he's totally unaware of the fact that his scent puts her off and keeps explaining it away. He's not really sinister, just clueless.


Also consider the fact that in Tiny Toons, Fifi La Fume is almost exactly the same character, except she's a woman, but she is not subject to any of the same scrutiny. She is arguably played a bit more sympathetically since we see that she really does want a boyfriend and is somewhat aware that she drives them away, but there are cartoons where males get a stripe put on their back and she pursues them just as aggressively as Pepe does.


Actually, there's quite a lot of fictional examples of women aggressively pursuing men who state repeatedly that they aren't interested. Miss Piggy and Kermit the Frog is another prominent one.
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by McDuffies »

I don't desire to read old threads for the risk of accidentally stumbling onto proof of what a fool I was.

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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by Terotrous »

In any case, I've been having a lot of trouble finding the motivation to work on my regular comic lately. It just feels like it'll take way too long to finish and I'm not nearly as interested in working on it as I am on WLB.
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by McDuffies »

I don't really think so. To me, the joke is that Pepe is a total casanova and a great lover (that's why he's french, everyone knows the french are great lovers), but since he smells so terrible no girl can stand him. It's been shown a number of times that if he was to lose his stink or Penelope was to lose her sense of smell, they'd be inseparable.

The comedy largely derives from the fact that he's totally unaware of the fact that his scent puts her off and keeps explaining it away. He's not really sinister, just clueless.
what is sinister, to me, is that you can't get away from him, I think there's a very claustrophobic atmosphere, as with any character who inexplicably pops out wherever you hide.

Also consider the fact that in Tiny Toons, Fifi La Fume is almost exactly the same character, except she's a woman, but she is not subject to any of the same scrutiny. She is arguably played a bit more sympathetically since we see that she really does want a boyfriend and is somewhat aware that she drives them away, but there are cartoons where males get a stripe put on their back and she pursues them just as aggressively as Pepe does.


Actually, there's quite a lot of fictional examples of women aggressively pursuing men who state repeatedly that they aren't interested. Miss Piggy and Kermit the Frog is another prominent one.
The main joke about Fifi character is that, due to double standards, she's never going to come out as unsympathetic as Pepe. Women pursuing men are such often occurrence in comedy precisely because, due to reversal of usual roles, this is more humorous and less sinister. The more milquetoast Kermit is and the more commanding Piggy is, the more accentuated that reversal is.

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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by JSConner800 »

McDuffies wrote:I'm thinking of a reason of why Loony Tunes are different on fundamental level from rapey comics, and the thing that comes to mind is Pepe Le Pew. His cartoons are basically extended sexual harrasment scenes, right? Does that thing fly because:
1. They were actually funny and well-done, and you're more likely to excuse something that's well-done?
2. It was made in times when these things weren't perceived as that bad?
3. characters from that cartoon were completely assexual and couldn't have been objects of sexual fantasy (but some furries actually do fetishize those cartoons these days)
4. Pepe Le Pew was not a sympathetic character. He was clearly annoying, narcissistic and a major nuisance all over. But I don't think he was meant to appear as creepy as he may be percieved today.
5. They never went as far as these comics do.
6. Pepe Le Pew telegraphs that his story is removed from real life while these comics at least keep semplance of real life situations.
I dunno. Pick any.
Still, I can't help being puzzled by various changing standards that are at play there. I'd hate to think that we should reevaluate Loony Tunes cartoons based on current, ephemeral standards of what's appropriate (and we all know how well that went with Speedy Gonzales). I think that a character like Pepe was always meant to have a sinister note. That animators of that time understood well that humor can, and should also come from dark places.
I'll pick 1, 4, 5, and 6. I love how a discussion about rape has organically arrived at an analysis of Pepe le Pew. He always creeped me out, even as a kid. He's still preferable to those comics for the reasons stated above. Also, I think it helped that he never actually succeeded. All of the Loony Tunes antagonists had fucked up agendas. But we never see Elmer Fudd killing, skinning, and eating Bugs Bunny (though there is that one episode where Bugs fakes his death and Elmer spirals into a deep depression), and we never see Pepe le Pew raping another cartoon animal. I'd say that helps our brains rationalize these situations and file them away in the "okay" bin while the other stuff gets dumped in the "not okay" bin.

I actually remember being pretty disturbed as a kid by that Bugs Bunny episode. I wonder if I can find it on youtube...






Just to say something on-topic for a change, comic's doing fine! We've lost our buffer, but we have a cool 13 strips up on the site and that's a hell of a lot more story than we had last time I checked in. Our graphic designer thinks he can keep up with the workload, since it's all on him now (he's even working on improving his already fantastic website), so hopefully he can build the buffer back up without requiring a hiatus. Only time will tell :D
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by RobboAKAscooby »

JSConner800 wrote:
McDuffies wrote:I'm thinking of a reason of why Loony Tunes are different on fundamental level from rapey comics, and the thing that comes to mind is Pepe Le Pew. His cartoons are basically extended sexual harrasment scenes, right? Does that thing fly because:
1. They were actually funny and well-done, and you're more likely to excuse something that's well-done?
2. It was made in times when these things weren't perceived as that bad?
3. characters from that cartoon were completely assexual and couldn't have been objects of sexual fantasy (but some furries actually do fetishize those cartoons these days)
4. Pepe Le Pew was not a sympathetic character. He was clearly annoying, narcissistic and a major nuisance all over. But I don't think he was meant to appear as creepy as he may be percieved today.
5. They never went as far as these comics do.
6. Pepe Le Pew telegraphs that his story is removed from real life while these comics at least keep semplance of real life situations.
I dunno. Pick any.
Still, I can't help being puzzled by various changing standards that are at play there. I'd hate to think that we should reevaluate Loony Tunes cartoons based on current, ephemeral standards of what's appropriate (and we all know how well that went with Speedy Gonzales). I think that a character like Pepe was always meant to have a sinister note. That animators of that time understood well that humor can, and should also come from dark places.
I'll pick 1, 4, 5, and 6. I love how a discussion about rape has organically arrived at an analysis of Pepe le Pew. He always creeped me out, even as a kid. He's still preferable to those comics for the reasons stated above. Also, I think it helped that he never actually succeeded. All of the Loony Tunes antagonists had fucked up agendas. But we never see Elmer Fudd killing, skinning, and eating Bugs Bunny (though there is that one episode where Bugs fakes his death and Elmer spirals into a deep depression), and we never see Pepe le Pew raping another cartoon animal. I'd say that helps our brains rationalize these situations and file them away in the "okay" bin while the other stuff gets dumped in the "not okay" bin.
Therein lies the "gag" of most of those Looney Tunes cartoons, that the antagonist doesn't succeed and, more specifically, how their attempts are foiled. It also helps that most of the Looney Tunes (up until about the 80s) were aimed at adults just as much as children, designed to play before films in the pre "ohmygodhowmanyfuckingtrailersareyougonnashow" days.

Pepe le Pew specifically was designed as a parody of the charming "Cassanova" lover and on those rare occasions he did succeed they were parodying the ladies who fall for that bullshit despite glaringly obvious flaws. A bit sexist yes, but we've all seen it happen in real life (and we've all seen a guy put up with a bitch for similar reasons).
The main difference between Pepe and those rape comics is that the creators of Pepe understood what they were writing whereas (besides the genuine sickos) the rape comics writers are generally teenage girls with no comprehension of the real world.
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by LibertyCabbage »

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Does the guy who does the reviews at "Your Webcomics" ever write a review that isn't mostly positive? I'm reading through some of the reviews now, and it seems like either he only reviews comics he likes, or is afraid to write a review that doesn't end with him saying it's still a good read and worth a shot. Kind of like he takes the "compliment sandwich" a little too literally.
I don't think I've ever seen Jack post a review that wasn't equivalent to a 4.5/5 or 5/5 in tone. He'll have criticism once in a while, but he'll either apologize for bringing it up or present himself as being uncertain about the subject. As I noted in "Webcomic Reviewers," it's hard to tell sometimes if he actually likes the webcomic that much or if he just doesn't want to be "the bad guy" by pointing out flaws.
Sortelli wrote:Lots of comic review sites seem to have that going on, I think. I remember either I would get a glowing five of five from friends (which I always felt was undeserved) or just nothing from a review site... or sometimes a mention in someone else's review when I was used as a comparison
I'd say that most webcomic review sites are like that. ComicBooked is a good example because you can see that literally every review on the front page is a 4.5/5 or 5/5.
VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:I'm trying to find some good review sites. It's weird becauseyou type in "webcomic review" in google and there's not many that show up unless you dig for ages of pages, and then you really only find ones that everyone already knows about or ones that haven't updated since Your Comic Is Bad And You Should Feel Bad was still available to read. You have to start by looking at actual sites like LC's site and then look at their affiliates/links and kind of swing from vine to vine like that to find others.
I've looked, too, and there really just aren't any good ones aside from, obviously, Webcomic Overlook.
VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:I've found a few "okay" tumblr review blogs, but they tend to either have a limited scope or do shorter form reviews.
I found a few of the Webcomic Police peeps by searching for webcomic reviews on Tumblr. There's really not much there, either, and even the relatively decent ones are pretty obscure.
VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:I'm spoiled by the type of reviews that get done around these parts, where the reviewer provides a comprehensive look on art, site, story, characters, etc, instead of just saying "I read This Comic. It was very good. Here are the reasons why the comic was good. The comic was good because-"
Art, especially, since a lot of reviewers (even El Santo) neglect art too much, basically doing a whole review of the writing and then sticking in "and the art's purty" at the end.
VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Like some reviewers try so hard to make sure that their reviews end up being positive, they focus too hard on pointing out the positives of the comic instead of looking at it as a cohesive unit with positives and negatives.
Every webcomic has flaws no matter how good it is, but, besides that, the best of the best represent less than 1 percent of webcomics. So, it's not just a matter of putting great webcomics in a positive light, it's also ignoring the vast majority of webcomics that don't live up to a certain ideal.
VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Hmmm, "Your Reviews Are Bad And You Should Feel Bad"
think there's any money for me to make in it?
Well, there's definitely enough material for a sequel to "Webcomic Reviewers." Some candidates off the top of my head would be io9, ComicBooked, Wild Webcomic Review, I Am Legend, and, of course, Shitty Webcomics.
Sortelli wrote:A review of review sites would be so meta my heart would explode. I tend not to trust review sites in general, as much as I desperately crave reviews. Often it feels to me like someone's trying to be a part of the comic community without, y'know, doing comics. I still remember one argument I got into with a dude on these very forums which caused him to publicly swear that I only hated him because he never bothered to review EOI even though I had no idea nor care that he did reviews in the first place.
1 and 2. =P I think comicking experience helps when it comes to reviewing, but I wouldn't consider it to be a requirement, especially since there are very few people who both regularly review and make webcomics. Judging someone by their experience rather than their output is sort of a personal attack, too, and I've also seen it reversed where a review was attacked on the basis of the reviewer's own webcomic being bad.
Sortelli wrote:For the record LC, I think you guys are doing a great job over at the Webcomic Police both in terms of reviews and introducing me to comics I've never heard of before, so props
Thanks! A lot of the ones people choose to review are webcomics I haven't heard of, either, so I'm just as glad to find out about new stuff as anybody else.
VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Seriously, LC does the most thorough and professional quality reviews I've seen
That's a pretty awesome compliment, although I think there are people who write better webcomic reviews than I do. But I do have an advantage in that I have the opportunity to write a lot and that I'm always trying to get better at reviewing. I think my 2013 reviews are better than my 2012 ones, and that's what really counts the most.
VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:It seems like people who've made comics *in general* tend to treat reviews more carefully than people who haven't, and my guess is because people who've made webcomics have just slightly a better insight into what makes comics work than someone who is an admirer of the craft but hasn't partaken.
I agree that creators are generally better reviewers.
VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:The best non-creating reviewer I can think of offhand is El Santo
For sure, and while his reviews have some flaws (like technical mistakes, too much plot summary, and lack of attention to the artwork), they make up for it by having a lot of personality. He's funny, he's likable, he engages with readers well, he's both prolific and consistent, and he cleverly ties the webcomics to seemingly irrelevant subjects. His "Know Thy History" posts are also very unique and show a deep understanding and respect for the medium. So, it's no accident that his blog's as popular as it is.
Humbug wrote:Speaking of reviews, El Santo actually reviewed the first run of ToP and boy did he rip it apart. I'd be lying if I said it didn't hurt. In fact it felt like he punched me in the gut, repeatedly. Watching people tear into something you put your heart and soul into is never an easy thing. I guess his review is one of the biggest reasons I decided to do a reboot, and I hope I'm doing it better this time.
Bustertheclown wrote:I'm sure that after five years, this guy has gotten better at reviewing, or at least I hope so. However, what he wrote about your efforts in 2008 is pure garbage. See? Insults are easy. Reboot if you like, but I hope that there's more behind it than that one smug, trashy piece of writing that has spurred you into it. After all, what would be the point in that? Getting some random hater to like you? That's not a good reason at all.
I read that review at some point, and it seemed like a very different writing style than from what he does now. I think El Santo deserves credit for maturing a lot as a reviewer since then.
Bustertheclown wrote:My biggest problem with blog reviewers on the whole is that there is rarely any editorial filter, and his review is a prime example of that problem. Critics don't review as an exercise in coming up with as many ways to say shitty things about somebody's work as is possible in ten paragraphs, and critics with editors generally aren't going to get something so lacking in substance through to the public. If you've taken the time to go through somebody's work, and then write about it, then why be so cheap about it? Insults are so easy to write that they have become the common currency of internet discourse. There is no quality to it, though; it is not an art. It's lazy.
That's true, but I think it's also important to not antagonize reviewers since they play an important role in the medium. There are some reviewers who really are jerks like that, but others are just trying to be helpful, and everyone has a different idea of what's fair. It's tough sometimes to give meaningful criticism while being reasonably gentle about it, and I'm sure there are a lot of people who'd rather not write reviews at all than deal with the potential drama and animosity that reviews can cause. And as discussed earlier, the opposite problem happens a lot, where reviewers say that every webcomic's "awesome" and "a must-read" while neglecting to point out major flaws that the creator should be aware of.
McDuffies wrote: I feel like making a webcomic review site where I'd write only positive reviews, if only I had free time. I would try to make a selection by pointing at the good ones. If I haven't written about you, you probably suck.
My concern's that it'd get boring never reviewing bad or mediocre webcomics.
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by Terotrous »

To be honest, watching those cartoons as a kid I always kind of rooted for the two of them to end up together. I think a big part of this is that while Pepe may be clueless, too forceful, and too self-absorbed, there's absolutely no malice there. He clearly means well, and I think it's clear that he would be very kind to her if she ever actually gave in to him. I also don't think there's any chance he would ever force himself on her, since he's all about "le wooing", as pushy as he is he clearly wants her to give in to him of her own free will.


To be honest, I think a lot of the modern ire towards him comes as a result of the oversimplification of dating that is the "no means no" mantra. Even though women's rights advocates are loathe to admit it, in like 99% of relationships the partners do not develop feelings for each other at exactly the same time and one usually has to win the other over, often having their advances turned back numerous times. And when this occurs in media or whatever, people often find this to be extremely heartwarming, there's an "aww she finally recognized his inherent goodness that's so sweet" sentiment to it. Clearly stalking does still exist and is still a problem, but I think in most cases if the pursuer actually cares about the feelings of the pursued (and not just their own desires), they wouldn't do anything that would really hurt them. Pepe probably does take things too far (it wouldn't really be funny if he didn't), but I think he's pretty low on the "what a creep!" scale.
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by Bustertheclown »

LibertyCabbage wrote:
Bustertheclown wrote:My biggest problem with blog reviewers on the whole is that there is rarely any editorial filter, and his review is a prime example of that problem. Critics don't review as an exercise in coming up with as many ways to say shitty things about somebody's work as is possible in ten paragraphs, and critics with editors generally aren't going to get something so lacking in substance through to the public. If you've taken the time to go through somebody's work, and then write about it, then why be so cheap about it? Insults are so easy to write that they have become the common currency of internet discourse. There is no quality to it, though; it is not an art. It's lazy.
That's true, but I think it's also important to not antagonize reviewers since they play an important role in the medium. There are some reviewers who really are jerks like that, but others are just trying to be helpful, and everyone has a different idea of what's fair. It's tough sometimes to give meaningful criticism while being reasonably gentle about it, and I'm sure there are a lot of people who'd rather not write reviews at all than deal with the potential drama and animosity that reviews can cause. And as discussed earlier, the opposite problem happens a lot, where reviewers say that every webcomic's "awesome" and "a must-read" while neglecting to point out major flaws that the creator should be aware of.
Just to quickly clarify my position on this point: I'm not saying that reviewers need to be gentle, but they should be writing critiques that are of substance and meaning. Yes, gushing is just as bad as insulting.
I think it's also important to not antagonize reviewers since they play an important role in the medium.
This I can't agree with. When someone takes up the mantle of "critic" (or the softer-sounding "reviewer") that comes with an implication that they're writing from an informed position, but there are far too many armchair reviewers out there who are not doing anything important for the medium. Everyone with an internet connection can spout off and call themselves reviewers, but that doesn't mean they're really qualified to do so. Given the role that critics play in media in general -- which is that of interpretation for the benefit of the audience, rather than instruction for the benefit of the creator -- they should absolutely be taken to task when their critiques fall short of being informative or insightful. Unskilled reviews contribute nothing, and there is an abundance of them out there. I understand that a lot of self-publishers, like webcartoonists, only really receive attention as compensation, but that does not mean that reviewers should be seen as untouchable simply because they might provide some of that attention. Hell, maybe I should start my own review blog. What's catchier: The Reviewer Review or The Critic Critique?
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by RobboAKAscooby »

Bustertheclown wrote:The Critic Critique?
^ this one.

The "anyone can be a journalist" aspect of the internet is slowly grating on me, whether it be review blogs or news blogs or gossip blogs, there needs to be some quality control (and the same goes for creative types too I guess).

I just realised I'm sounding like a real downer around here lately, I'll try to work on that.
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by McDuffies »

For sure, and while his reviews have some flaws (like technical mistakes, too much plot summary, and lack of attention to the artwork), they make up for it by having a lot of personality. He's funny, he's likable, he engages with readers well, he's both prolific and consistent, and he cleverly ties the webcomics to seemingly irrelevant subjects. His "Know Thy History" posts are also very unique and show a deep understanding and respect for the medium. So, it's no accident that his blog's as popular as it is.
I have to admit I am put off by comments he made on Ullyses so I avoid reading him.
My concern's that it'd get boring never reviewing bad or mediocre webcomics.
Nah. Unlike families, every good comic is good in it's own way. And I think I personally feel better when I'm writing about things I like. But I don't think I would hold up for too long, cause there's a crank in me who's just crave to write about one of those crappy comics that are just about everywhere these days,

To be honest, watching those cartoons as a kid I always kind of rooted for the two of them to end up together. I think a big part of this is that while Pepe may be clueless, too forceful, and too self-absorbed, there's absolutely no malice there. He clearly means well, and I think it's clear that he would be very kind to her if she ever actually gave in to him. I also don't think there's any chance he would ever force himself on her, since he's all about "le wooing", as pushy as he is he clearly wants her to give in to him of her own free will.

To be honest, I think a lot of the modern ire towards him comes as a result of the oversimplification of dating that is the "no means no" mantra.
No way. My impression of Pepe as one of the most annoying characters in Loony Tunes cannon dates way back before political correctness was a thing. How exactly do you think that he would be "very kind to her" when he doesn't pay a single bit of attention to what she wants.
Pepe doesn't love, he lusts. He's a character who is so self-absorbed that rejection doesn't register to him because to him, the idea that someone might not want him isn't there. He's in constant state of self-denial that she's just "playing hard to get" even though there's nothing playful about how she acts.
Pepe is a caricature of that ladies' man type who believes that by pushing enough, he'll bring any girl enough, but how he is represented is much more of oblivious buffoon who can't see anything from the haze of lust surrounding him. If there is no malice, that's only because he's too stupid to be malicious. This might not be how those casanovas are in real life, but Loony Tunes was never actually a satire, and they'd gladly depart from their source of inspiration if they thought it'd be funnier.
Even though women's rights advocates are loathe to admit it, in like 99% of relationships the partners do not develop feelings for each other at exactly the same time and one usually has to win the other over, often having their advances turned back numerous times. And when this occurs in media or whatever, people often find this to be extremely heartwarming, there's an "aww she finally recognized his inherent goodness that's so sweet" sentiment to it.
There's a big difference in how a person acts if she's, let's say, leaving the door cracked from when she shuts them down completely. There's a communication through non-verbal means, body language, signals. The best of us at reading body language know if a woman is subconsciously giving them signals to proceed. The most buffoonish of us don't register those signals so when this occurs to other people, they just conclude that any woman can be "worn out" if you're persistent enough, which is an awful thing to think, and also not true.
You know how some couples first seem to hate each others and always bicker, but then start a relationship? Well that's very different from when two people actually do hate each other. To a casual onlooker maybe it doesn't look different, but non-verbal language is completely different, and a pair recognizes this on a subconscious level.

You know there's a lot I could say about lines like "in like 99% of relationships the partners do not develop feelings for each other at exactly the same time"... noone develops feelings that early in relationship. There's chemistry in your brain telling you it's feelings but it's not... and people rarely if ever step into a relationship with already developed feelings... the mechanism of falling in love is completely different from what you described there, it doesn't even apply... don't get me wrong but what you've described has more to do with vision of "love" that movies are trying to shove into our heads than any actual psychology.
Clearly stalking does still exist and is still a problem, but I think in most cases if the pursuer actually cares about the feelings of the pursued (and not just their own desires), they wouldn't do anything that would really hurt them.
It's hard to even begin to explain what's wrong with this.
Look, a stalker/stalkee relationship goes beyond mere disregard of someone's wishes spoken outloud, it's complete disregard of another human being, disregard of their free will; Stalkee is not just put off by a threat of physical violence but also by thorough objectification and denial of freedom of choice. A stalkee is essentially psychologically caged by a stalker and psychological damage goes beyond mere fear. So not only would stalker not "do nothing anything to hurt her", he is actively hurting her as we speak. You are mistaken if you think that stalkers are driven by genuine love, in most of cases stalkers don't even know a person they're stalking enough to love. Obsession, lust, pathology, yes, but those are not things that tend to make you care about other person's well-being.
It's been shown a number of times that if he was to lose his stink or Penelope was to lose her sense of smell, they'd be inseparable.
I really don't think that creators of Pepe were so big on continuity that you could make overreaching conclusions based on what happened in a few cartoons.
Pepe le Pew specifically was designed as a parody of the charming "Cassanova" lover and on those rare occasions he did succeed they were parodying the ladies who fall for that bullshit despite glaringly obvious flaws. A bit sexist yes, but we've all seen it happen in real life (and we've all seen a guy put up with a bitch for similar reasons).
The main difference between Pepe and those rape comics is that the creators of Pepe understood what they were writing whereas (besides the genuine sickos) the rape comics writers are generally teenage girls with no comprehension of the real world.
I think that neither were meant to represent anything from real world. Pepe is a caricature, but a caricature taken very far from the original source for the sake of humor. On the other hand, I don't think that teenage girls are writing their rapey comics to represent what they think rape looks like in real life, I think that they are indulging a fantasy which they very well know has nothing to do with reality. (I also doubt that genuine sickos draw or read those comics. They simply get off on different things from what is displayed in those comics.)

Beyond all the analysis, a reason why Pepe cartoons are harmless is very simple: it was made in different times, when sexual harassment wasn't seen as a problem. By the time it became a problem people took note of, Pepe was so ingrained into collective consciousness that it takes an effort to put him in a more modern context. I do believe that if such character was made these days, he'd be very controversial, far from children's icon that he is now.

Now, Pepe is a good cartoon. It relies on more that one joke, in fact there's a dozen of good absurdist gag in that scenario, starting with the fact that Pepe has this glaring flaw, but still maintains himself a lothario, possibility that he is actually desirable to male skunks, the fact that the cat only becomes desirable to him after she's painted, arguably a shoddy disguise, then there's the corny things he says, and so on (and I'm wondering if the stereotype that americans have of frenchmen as having poor bathing habits was perhaps a source of inspiration). Undeniably there's a lot of funny things in that cartoon even if you don't find the chase all that funny.

But when we're talking about a basic scenario, it's problematic. It's not problematic because times have changed, it's always been problematic. Perception has changed because we are finally acknowledging something that is a big problem, and it's fair to say that this scenario could pass as harmless only back when we were collectively oblivious about the problem. If anyone suggests that we're too sensitive about these matters, I'll respond that this is only a reflex reaction to centuries of being completely desensitized.
Of course, I also think that it's completely normal, even necessary to joke about things that bother us, convroversial things, even dark things. In different context, Pepe cartoons only get more texture.
What's catchier: The Reviewer Review or The Critic Critique?
The first one just doesn't roll of the tongue easily,

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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by LibertyCabbage »

Bustertheclown wrote:This I can't agree with. When someone takes up the mantle of "critic" (or the softer-sounding "reviewer") that comes with an implication that they're writing from an informed position, but there are far too many armchair reviewers out there who are not doing anything important for the medium.
You're right about that, but what I meant is that competent reviews are too often branded as incompetent and/or malicious because of their negative tone, and that discourages reviewers who feel that they're being punished or demonized for being honest. I sort of feel like it's okay that reviewers, writing from a position of authority, need to be able to handle hostility and defend their credibility, but it also comes across as a double standard that webcartoonists should be treated with delicacy while reviewers are expected to be tough and handle constant scrutiny and insults. I'm not bothered that it isn't "fair," but the reality of the situation's that you only have about a few dozen reviewers around while a site like Smack Jeeves, for example, has almost 50,000 webcomics.
Bustertheclown wrote:The Critic Critique?
That one. I'd read it, and there's probably enough material for it even if reviews aren't nearly as widely read as webcomics are.
RobboAKAScooby wrote:The "anyone can be a journalist" aspect of the internet is slowly grating on me, whether it be review blogs or news blogs or gossip blogs, there needs to be some quality control (and the same goes for creative types too I guess).
I like how accessible the Internet is. I guess the main problem's that a lot of the content "rewarded" with attention and prominence is low-quality, but print has the same problem, just for different reasons.
McDuffies wrote:I have to admit I am put off by comments he made on Ullyses so I avoid reading him.
I haven't heard about that before. I'll have to look it up.
McDuffies wrote:Nah. Unlike families, every good comic is good in it's own way. And I think I personally feel better when I'm writing about things I like. But I don't think I would hold up for too long, cause there's a crank in me who's just crave to write about one of those crappy comics that are just about everywhere these days.
Well, I'd personally like to see your idea manifest if you ever feel like you have the time and energy for it.
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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by Sortelli »

RobboAKAscooby wrote:The "anyone can be a journalist" aspect of the internet is slowly grating on me, whether it be review blogs or news blogs or gossip blogs, there needs to be some quality control (and the same goes for creative types too I guess).

I just realised I'm sounding like a real downer around here lately, I'll try to work on that.
The first thing any such authority on quality control would do is not only to tell you to stop drawing, it would also insult you and require you to go to therapy.

This is not me trying to dump on you from behind a flimsy screen of passive aggression. I find the idea of that hypothetical authority abhorrent.

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Re: How are you doing, comic-wise?

Post by VeryCuddlyCornpone »

McDuffies, you put everything in better words than I could, I agree with what you've said.
McDuffies wrote:(and I'm wondering if the stereotype that americans have of frenchmen as having poor bathing habits was perhaps a source of inspiration).
But this blew my mind. Wow, I feel kind of like when somebody pointed out that the crows in Dumbo were racist caricatures. When I was little I thought he was just French because he was overly romantic :lol:


re: Critics: A good critic is one of the best gifts to creative endeavors, a bad critic is useless and hindering. It's often a sour medicine and so many people receive helpful criticism and brush it off as a "hater," while sometimes people receive a poor quality critique, think it's coming from a position of authority, believe its gospel word, and let it stop them from trying to draw. (Of course there's middle ground here as well)

Critique is important because your average reader has like a 2% chance of telling you they liked something, 2% chance of telling you they didn't like something, 3% chance of trolling you, and the rest of the readers probably won't interact with you at all one way or the other. A critic is the voice of A Reader letting you know what works and what doesn't about the piece you're offering up to people. Note that I don't imply a critic speaks for all readers because duh that'd be dumb. A thoughtful critic may be able to tell you which audiences would respond better to the story you're telling and the comic you're drawing, or ways to direct the text to appeal to a specific audience if desired.

Not every critic will hold the creator's hand through the process, which is good. You're looking for a (mostly) one-time analysis, not a mentorship.

(Since I made my earlier post in the thread about bad reviewers effusively and unnecessarily praising comics, I've seen the freaking compliment sandwich EVERYWHERE. "It looks cute! The bodies are kinda maybe just a little bit kind of just a bit sort of weird BUT IT'S STILL PRETTY YOU HAVE A NICE WAY OF DRAWING FACES ;U;" If you don't have anything nice useful to say, maybe you should just write it in your diary)
Last edited by VeryCuddlyCornpone on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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