Great execution, but...

NathanAlderman · Post by **NathanAlderman** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 6:51 am

(I preface my remarks by saying that it's entirely possible I'm the only guy on this board who has yet to read The Lord of the Rings.)The latest storyline is, in every technical sense, awesome. T's script is full of clever jokes and gripping human moments (the scene with Rikk trying to pull the ring off Alisin's finger in Friday's installment being a prime example.) Jason's art is exceptional as always, brimming with inventive layouts and a real sense of life.But even with the handy guide to references-- which I hesitate to read, as I'm trying not to have the movies spoiled for me -- I have no freakin' idea what's going on. Where the heck did Alisin's ring come into this? Why is she glowing? Why is there suddenly a ring around the planet? The whole thing is one big inside joke that caters to Rings fans. I'm sure it wasn't intended as smug, but the somewhat exclusive nature of it is starting to grate on me. If I were a new reader, not a longstanding diehard, there's a chance I'd shrug my shoulders in confusion and tune FANS out entirely.Again, I think the whole thing's been carried out amazingly well. I just think it's built on a fundamentally flawed concept.Eagerly awaiting the next storyline,
NathanP.S. Oh, and thanks a lot, T. Now I know EXACTLY what's going to happen to Frodo by the end of the third movie. (= Next time, a spoiler warning would be much appreciated.

Bushipunk · Post by **Bushipunk** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 8:39 am

It isn't really just a big in-joke, I think. Certainly, I'm a big fan of LOTR (and all Tolkien's work, re-reading the Lost Tales at this moment), and I can say that at least as far as I can tell, knowing LOTR doesn't explain why a big ring has appeared around the Earth, or why Alisin's ring (this is the one Rikk gave her, yes?) is glowing.There's a lot of original aspects in this storyline, in spite of the high density of LOTR references, and I believe these are them... Like the weird red glows bringing us into "Loving the Alien," I think these are phenomena we aren't meant to understand yet, the meanings of which will be explained in comics to come.
</pontification>I agree heartily that this storyline has been extremely well executed, of course.

Aris Katsaris · Post by **Aris Katsaris** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 3:29 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by NathanAlderman:

The whole thing is one big inside joke that caters to Rings fans.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And Hyperman was one big inside joke that catered to Superman fans. And Sully and Miller were one big inside joke that catered to X-Files fans.Lord of the Rings is important to fandom. Atleast as important as Superman or X-Files IMO. Deal. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by NathanAlderman:

P.S. Oh, and thanks a lot, T. Now I know EXACTLY what's going to happen to Frodo by the end of the third movie.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Should Faans also never reveal stuff like "Darth Vader is Luke's father"? I hardly see how Faans requires spoilers for books that were published fifty years ago. It spoiled part of the *book*. And you *knew* it would do that from the very beginning of the storyline.

T Campbell · Post by **T Campbell** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 6:35 am

This actually hits on a really, really big concern of mine... how to do a strip about something as eclectic as fandom, without becoming eclectic ourselves.A few basic fan icons have passed into mainstream culture, especially the three S's-- STAR WARS, STAR TREK, and selected super-heroes. LOTR and POTTER are probably on their way there, unless their film series surprise everyone and tank.(And if you're frowning at the way nothing seems to pass into popular culture these days without being "authorized" by TV and movies, then go to the head of the class.)I have to agree that this tribute's been a lot more "in-jokey" than others we've done. A lesson to bear in mind next year...

Shatteredtower · Post by **Shatteredtower** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 7:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maritza_Campos:
But that's not the same!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In many minds, no. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>LOTR is not the same as Star Trek, Star Wars or Superman. Star Trek and Star Wars are now pop culture, so widely referenced and quoted and parodied that it's almost clich

Khavren · Post by **Khavren** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 8:09 am

Personally I'm suprised by the number of Faans! fans that haven't read LotR. It's such an inspriation for the fantasy genre and has shaped so much of it that it just seems like a must read. And for all those who want to avoid spoiling the movie, how many times has a movie been better than the books it's based off of? At any rate, I would recomend reading the Hobbit no matter what, it might help with this storyline and I don't think the movies will touch on it at all except as possibly a scrolling intro ala Star Wars.Btw, T, you might want to try using the Skiffy club meetings to see if an idea/reference would be missed by an excess of people. Just something like "Who here has read LotR?" "Would recognize a chaacter based on Superman?" "X-files?" "Ice Pirates?" If 2-3 people haven't then odds are about 30% of your audience hasn't either.

Maritza_Campos · Post by **Maritza_Campos** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 10:57 am

But that's not the same!LOTR is not the same as Star Trek, Star Wars or Superman. Star Trek and Star Wars are now pop culture, so widely referenced and quoted and parodied that it's almost clich

EteRock · Post by **EteRock** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 6:06 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maritza_Campos:
How do you simplify LOTR?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The same way you simplified the X-files. By only going by the simple basic one dimensional facts and ignoring everything else.LOTR is just a band of adventurers? I don't think so. And X-files is just "two FBI agents investigate strange cases and have the hots for each other."? I don't think so. The X-files has a very complex storyline(s)I said that myself I haven't watched X-files. Yeah you haven't, I have. So I know it's not a simple as you say it is.------------------
<A HREF="http://smapdi.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Smapdi</A> is a commie plot!---Maritza Campos[This message has been edited by EteRock (edited 11-04-2001).]

Maccabee · Post by **Maccabee** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 9:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maritza_Campos:
Parts of the Bible are pop culture now. Like the part of Moses splitting the Red Sea. But what about Maccabees? Is Maccabees part of pop culture? No.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you saying I'm not a pop culture phenomenon? I'm hurt, and my fan-club feels belittled. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/tongue.gif">Maccabee
"It's Hammer time."

Maccabee · Post by **Maccabee** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 9:53 am

See, this is not a flame, this is an argument. As long as you're going after the other person's statements we're cool, even if you get a little heated (I tend to favor a somewhat slashing style of debate myself). Just remember to stay on this side of the line and everyone can be relatively happy.Maccabee------------------
Risus est telum ultimum contra tyrranem. Nullus dictator exercitibus allibus ridiculem vulgi longe resistare potest.

Maritza_Campos · Post by **Maritza_Campos** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 10:19 am

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOTR is not the same as Star Trek, Star Wars or Superman. Star Trek and Star Wars are now pop culture, so widely referenced and quoted and parodied that it's almost clich

NathanAlderman · Post by **NathanAlderman** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 11:55 am

Wow. I didn't mean to create QUITE so big a ruckus. I personally haven't read the Lord of the Rings because, well, I despise the fantasy genre in general. Something about the basic elements of most (and I stress, most) fantasy novels just strikes me as long-winded, fluffy and pretentious. (And yes, I realize this is doubtlessly an unfair judgment... it's my opinion only, no more, no less.) Unless it has a modern element-- and don't ask me why-- I'm just not there. I like myth; I love magic realism; I'm science fiction all the way; but I'm just not a fantasy guy. I'm eagerly awaiting the LOTR movie, however, because I'm a big Peter Jackson fan, and, frankly the whole thing looks thrilling on the big screen. I'm sure if I ever read the books, I stand at least a fair chance of really enjoying them. But until then, please don't get all huffy with me or anyone else who hasn't read LOTR-- and in return, I won't get all huffy if you're not up on your Star Wars or Star Trek or Buffy or my current favorite, Farscape.I'd also like to agree with the talented Sra. Maritza's point that Star Wars/Trek and Superman have permeated popular consciousness to point that LOTR has not. A test: stop a random person on the street. Ask them who Frodo Baggins is. Now, assuming they haven't started reaching for their mace (chemical or medieval), ask them who Lois Lane is. Then ask them who Darth Vader and Mr. Spock are. The results should prove enlightening.Again, this storyline rocks in the sense of its execution, even if Mr. Waltrip is having juuuuust a bit too much fun with Rumy's skirt there. (=-- Nathan

Maritza_Campos · Post by **Maritza_Campos** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 1:00 am

Never meant to make anybody angry so I'll just shut my big mouth.Maritza
CRFH.net

Aris Katsaris · Post by **Aris Katsaris** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 1:22 am

Eterock, first of all thanks for the synopsis of the background.Second, this seems to me to be... not an evasion exactly, but a misunderstanding, deliberate or non-deliberate. You didn't summarize the series or its premise. You simply listed the final revelations. Most of which I assume were revealed late in the series. I'm watching the fifth Season of the X-Files and the *only* summary I'd need to understand most episodes is "Fox Mulder and Dana Scully are FBI Agents who investigate paranormal and generally weird phenomena, being opposed by a vast governmental conspiracy who's determined to prevent knowledge of aliens to leak to the public."That's the crucial knowledge. That's the premise. Change 90 percent of the stuff you've written there and it still doesn't influence 95% of the episodes I have seen. I could create an entire different background for you, and most episodes would remain the same.LOTR (and almost every large book) is different. The characters matter throughout it and not knowing who Gandalf or Saruman is, or Elven and Dwarven attitudes, or a number of many issues will leave you lost if you just open it in a random chapter somewhere with only my above oversimplification as knowledge.

EteRock · Post by **EteRock** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 1:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
Eterock, first of all thanks for the synopsis of the background.Second, this seems to me to be... not an evasion exactly, but a misunderstanding, deliberate or non-deliberate. You didn't summarize the series or its premise. You simply listed the final revelations. Most of which I assume were revealed late in the series. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well I copied and pasted that summary. I thought it was a good "overview". I basically wanted to show that X-files does have a complex storyline to it. Maybe "summary" was a bad word to use.------------------
<A HREF="http://smapdi.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Smapdi</A> is a commie plot!---Maritza Campos[This message has been edited by EteRock (edited 11-05-2001).]

EteRock · Post by **EteRock** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 1:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Maritza_Campos:
Never meant to make anybody angry so I'll just shut my big mouth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>From what I read you say it seemed to me that you were the one angry------------------
<A HREF="http://smapdi.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Smapdi</A> is a commie plot!---Maritza Campos

T Campbell · Post by **T Campbell** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 2:12 am

Ete, take a breath and don't make me a bad guy twice in one seven-day period, okay? I try not to take sides, but I think you know how I'm going to feel if I perceive somebody to be yelling at Maritza.Mass acceptance means getting a large number of people who aren't familiar with the work in great detail. LOTR's smaller following enjoys the rich mythology that the series has created. But if it explodes into a mass phenomenon, the masses will be fixating on a few elements... they may think LOTR's great, but it won't teach them to read the way they should.X-FILES has a number of devoted fans who positively live for the myths it's built. But many, people who know of Mulder and Scully don't even know the name of the character who replaced him on the series. (Doggett.)There are few "Frodo and Samwise" fans today. We'll see what the movie does...

Aris Katsaris · Post by **Aris Katsaris** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 2:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by EteRock:
 Well I copied and pasted that summary. I thought it was a good "overview". I basically wanted to show that X-files does have a complex storyline to it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My main point was that this wasn't X-Files storyline any more than LOTR's storyline is the story of Feanor or of Eorl the Young or of Beren & Luthien. What you listed was the *background* which would *later* be pieced together. And be irrelevant for most of the series' run.X-Files storyline proper began with Scully coming to work with Mulder. Perhaps you could add Samantha's abduction since that's the important bit of knowledge Mulder *himself* knows at that point and for most of the early seasons... But all the rest - bleh.

Nireena · Post by **Nireena** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 2:28 am

Disclaimer: sorry if I repeat some points that were already brought up, but the astounding length of some of the posts and time constraints meant that I had to skim a bit.For starters, I am yet another scifi/fantasy fan who is just now reading LotR for the first time. While I've gotten far enough along in the book to understand most of the FANS! references, there were a couple spoilers in there (notably Shanna's comment about Frodo's eventual shame). I was disappointed at the spoilers but then I shouldn't have been too surprised- it's hard to do a complete parody, one that does the original justice, without revealing most/all of the story.As for the problem of it being too in-jokey: if you're going to give equal air-time to all aspects of fandom, that has to include fantasy and the Tolkien works are a bastion of the genre. Perhaps his works aren't as pervasive in pop culture right now as they were 30 years ago, but hopefully the new movies coming out will be the start of a resurgence in its popularity. In any case:
- For those of you, like me, who are a bit lost and/or frustrated by this storyline: try to hang in there if you don't mind the spoilers and enjoy the ride. I got a little frustrated at the CRFH crossover because I felt it was too in-jokey and insular but I decided to stick with it and ended up enjoying it after a little bit of catch-up, even growing to be interested in the CRFH characters. Worst case scenario: wait until this storyline is over then pick up again. Every dog has his day; every aspect of fandom should have its chance in the FANS! spotlight.-For those of you who are thrilled at the attention that LotR is getting and are glad that it is re-emerging into the spotlight: congrats, but please be patient with the rest of us. -For everyone: remember, you're fen/fans: you all know what it feels like to love a subject considered obscure by the population at large. If someone is not interested in a topic that you're passionate about, it's all fine and well to defend its virtues but it's nearly pointless to try to "convert" them to it. In fact, the harder and more adamantly you try, the more likely you are to turn them off it. In sum: chill out, everybody.

EteRock · Post by **EteRock** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 4:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by T Campbell:
Ete, take a breath and don't make me a bad guy twice in one seven-day period, okay? I try not to take sides, but I think you know how I'm going to feel if I perceive somebody to be yelling at Maritza.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was not yelling at Maritza. We are very good friends and I would hope that by now she would know when I'm yelling at her and when I have a disagreement with her. This was never meant to look like any sort of angry arguement. We've talked about it and the whole thing is droppedI think I need a vacation from all this school work. I hate Oracle/SQL------------------
<A HREF="http://smapdi.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Smapdi</A> is a commie plot!---Maritza Campos[This message has been edited by EteRock (edited 11-05-2001).]