An observation, and a question.

[Dr Legostar]

I notice that younger people are often looking for my opinion as the voice of the older

McDuffies what should I do

If someone offers you a fuzzle in the dark alley, refuse.

I could do without the drama sure, but hopefully with age I can detach myself a bit from it (yeah.. right)

It worked for me.

well i'm not much younger than you, so hopefully it won't be long for me.

[Risky]

I just got a whole ton of topic update notifications, so the forum must be alive once more!

New theory: Forum was dead because McDuffies was out of town.

[MariaAndMichelle]

New Theory: Forum was only pretending to be dead to avoid being attacked by bears.

[Terotrous]

I wouldn't talk in absolutes about such heated subject, but there is something odd about a 30 year old wanting to hang out with high-schoolers. Most of people will think "that guy is just refusing to admit he's aging" and in many cases, they'll be right.

I do kind of agree, but I don't really think this has that much bearing on this site. Sure, there's a pretty wide age range here, but age doesn't matter that much for just casual conversation, and where people form closer relationships, it'll probably be with people close to the same age for the reasons you described before.

We have plenty of people in their mid to late 20s and early 30s, so if you're getting to be around that age I don't think you should feel like you have to leave yet.

[Killbert-Robby]

I wouldn't talk in absolutes about such heated subject, but there is something odd about a 30 year old wanting to hang out with high-schoolers. Most of people will think "that guy is just refusing to admit he's aging" and in many cases, they'll be right.

I do kind of agree, but I don't really think this has that much bearing on this site. Sure, there's a pretty wide age range here, but age doesn't matter that much for just casual conversation, and where people form closer relationships, it'll probably be with people close to the same age for the reasons you described before.

We have plenty of people in their mid to late 20s and early 30s, so if you're getting to be around that age I don't think you should feel like you have to leave yet.

Honestly I dont even know of any members still in high school

[Dr Legostar]

New Theory: Forum was only pretending to be dead to avoid being attacked by bears.

it learned from Derenge.

[McDuffies]

Honestly I dont even know of any members still in high school

I guess that's the part of why this thread was started, 'cause there's no significant input of new members.

We have plenty of people in their mid to late 20s and early 30s, so if you're getting to be around that age I don't think you should feel like you have to leave yet.

I'm not thinking of leaving, I'm not as interested in activities or making bff's, but there's always casual conversation. In real life I feel it stronger, although I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable if this forum was filled with nothing but people in their 'teens.

[ShineDog]

Look at me, coming back to make a mean post.

This place is dead because your talent pool collapsed. You may not agree but talented people, in my opinion, are likely to be better posters.

You used to have decent artists here. Decent writers. These people posted well and did interesting things, and in many cases (This is a looong time ago btw) they were pretty much community cornerstones. But the whole webcomics thing kind of exploded and they were drowned out with terrible artists, terrible writers, terrible posters. (Within 2 pages this thread had a fair amount of giggly idiocy. I left because every thread was giggling idiocy.)

I think some of the reasons have been touched on, other comic hosts, private comic hosting with utilities to make it easy, none of these have the stigma of terrible that CG has.

Which kind of always bugged me. You had talent, maybe you got some new talent (I dont know really) but there was nothing to showcase it. Any old shit can be in the newsbox, Any old shit can have a pog, the genchan thing had some QC but it was really really lax. People who gave harsh criticism were sulked at and called mean, and you know what? They were right, but the idiotic responses just made them annoyed and the crits got meaner untill that side of things exploded. No more good critiques after that.

Everyone with talent got driven away... No, they left to go to places that are straight up better, and when that happens only people with no talent are going to want to hang here. Particularly with so many excellent independants around and places with high quality intelligent discussion about them. (Thats what this place should have tried to become, in my opinion. A quality general webcomics site, not a site for terrible authors to make terrible posts.)

I understand the need to be open to crappy authors. But you dont showcase that, you showcase the quality stuff. Too much celebration of the dross. Too many comments of WOW THAT LOOKS GREAT when it patently sucks. Probably unfixable now, certainly is in my mind.

(I made my fair share of terrible posts too, I am a terrible hypocrit. But I got better. Possibly)

No, I didnt, this is a terrible post.

[Laemkral]

^ True dat. The greatest problem is that the mediocrity, when it surfaces, is either embraced as "Oh wow that's AMAZING" or people are driven away without being constructively built into something that's actually praiseworthy. I wish to cite Serge as an example of "what should be". Serge used to suck, do crappy one tone drawings and was told "Hey, you suck, but here's why you suck, what you can do to get better." I bet he went out, did those, and now he's doing some GOOD stuff.

That's how it should be, but isn't. Probably because there's just so much suck that can't get better, so many people who get pissy and don't want to heed advice, and we're all just people on a forum offering fellow amateurs advice. This isn't our job.

Lotsa reasons, but mainly I agree we have trouble holding onto the talent.

[Dr Legostar]

I'm not thinking of leaving, I'm not as interested in activities or making bff's,

but... but... we're still bffs... right? RIGHT?

Yeah, there is certainly a decrease in the talent pool, but in addition to that, there's a decrease in community as well. When I started here Comic Jams were something people actually got involved in, and the people who contributed put some serious effort into things. After a while Jams sorta disappeared and when they did reappear they were often started by people that others seemed not to like and thus were shot down and so the jamming suffered even more. Over the years the snide remarks and mean spiritedness increased in time with the decrease in quality and it's hard to see clearly exactly which one precipitated the other. Did things get bad and stay bad because people got mean, or did people get mean because they got frustrated at the decrease in quality and the reluctance of anyone to listen to their advice however it might have been presented.

Also there's the drama and the emoness. That's no good either.

[Bustertheclown]

Well, it doesn't help either that there's a lot of intellectual grabass that gets played around here, where people who put in time to make thoughtful and quality contributions are often ignored in order to perpetuate the inside joke that came either before or afterward in the thread. That comes off just as much like hostility as actual snide comments.

[Corgan_dane]

To preface: I see a lot of truth in your post.

A quality general webcomics site

If we were going to become this, the site would have needed to be set up totally different. Comics would have to be put through an approval process, because let's be honest, there is always going to be far more badness out there than good. To put up a comic, by the nature of this place, is so easy that it's just going to draw in everyone, since there's really no buy in or incentive to do well. You can sit here with the same crappy stick figures or sprites for 5 years and never improve. It's not like you're going to get booted off. Quality in a broad sense can only come from quality control...and that's called Keenspot. Let's be honest, if you distill it down, the only reason Comicgen exists is as a talent pool for them to draw from. That's it. That's all we've ever been.

Is it possible that the more we talk about how bad people are, the more people we'll drive away from the forums who might start out bad but become good with some time and tutelage? By saying that we decide what is good or bad, on a website made for people who are generally going to start out bad, do we come out as elitists and snobs?

I don't know. I'm not cool enough to have answers.

It's just generally the nature of the more talented people to move on. If you're good, and willing to put in the effort it takes to leave this place and go indie or get invited to join something like Keenspot, you're going to leave, regardless.

Also: I have to disagree with the idea that talented people are generally better posters. We've had some folks around here that couldn't draw to save their life, who were big parts of the community. And on the other side of that coin there have been some seriously talented people who were almost universally reviled.

[Bustertheclown]

It's just generally the nature of the more talented people to move on. If you're good, and willing to put in the effort it takes to leave this place and go indie or get invited to join something like Keenspot, you're going to leave, regardless.

There's also the folk who move on without leaving. Either their creative interests shift, they find new outlets, or they just stop creating completely, but they still hang out here for whatever reason, albeit in a less earnest fashion. After all, when people do those "how's your webcomic going" type polls, plenty of regulars around here answer with something akin to "it ain't." It's a catch 22. On the one hand, the fire has died down for the people who make up the base contributors to this community, while on the other hand, those with new fires ignited in their bellies seem to be put off with the atmosphere around here. What we're left with is the same ol', same ol'.

[Risky]

It's just generally the nature of the more talented people to move on. If you're good, and willing to put in the effort it takes to leave this place and go indie or get invited to join something like Keenspot, you're going to leave, regardless. .

Doesn't haveta gotta apply to the forums. For example, Komi is awesome and 'Spotted and all, and still posts here.

[BionicDance]

I wouldn't talk in absolutes about such heated subject, but there is something odd about a 30 year old wanting to hang out with high-schoolers. Most of people will think "that guy is just refusing to admit he's aging" and in many cases, they'll be right.

I'm not sure it's so much a matter of wanting to hang out with high-schoolers so much as really not giving a crap about something as superficial as age, and caring more about the personality of those with whom you hang.
I mean, think of the reverse attitude: "No, I can't hang out with you; you're too young, and that's Just Not Done™." That's borderline bigotry right there.

I mean, many people say that you shouldn't judge a person by their age and that's true, but there are many other things that age affects indirectly. For one, person passes through different stages in life, and these stages are defined not only by social conventions, but also by biology. Your biological clock is ticking. Your health and energy aren't in their peak anymore.

...and?
If you hang at, say, a coffeeshop, and there happens to be another regular there who is either significantly older or younger than yourself, should you eschew their company simply as a matter of course? If so...why? This has nothing to do with your physical ability to, say, run a marathon because you're in a purely social setting; biological clock be damned, neh?

It is given that a set of interest of a person who is working 10 hours a day and considering future family and kids, is different from interests of a person who lives with his parents, thinks about tests and girlfriends, and can afford to spend weekday nights boozing.

That's a pretty narrow view of the range of activities in which a person might engage; who says "boozing" is the kind of thing anybody is talking about, anyway?
And it's hardly a given that the interest of someone with a job and family is going to be interested in different things; I have friends my own age--late twenties to mid-thirties--who still play video games, read webcomics, maybe even engage in dice-and-paper RPGs. And sports, clubbing, hanging out at coffeeshops, etc. My generation seems to be staying "younger" longer than those previous; I've discussed this with multiple people and we've all noticed the same trend. Heck, there was recently an XKCD about it, in fact:

You you can talk to younger people about I dunno, movies, comics, but when it comes to real-life stuff, personal issues, those things where friendship is really built, the person who is nearly the same age as you is the one who'll understand you the best.

...and that's the sole basis for friendship, or even just casual hanging out? Really?

Person goes through the stages when it comes to maturity too. A 15 year old generally looks for different stuff in things he reads from a 30 year old. I'm nearly 30, and I still wanna have fun, but I won't throw myself in a mosh pit anymore, I've given up on trying to change the world, and many stories I liked now look like too simplified view of the world, but I enjoyed them back when my own mind was more attuned to that view.

Well...I'm trying to find a way to say that there are multiple approaches to life besides yours that doesn't sound snotty in text and failing miserably.

I'm just sayin'...I'm willing to bet that there are some people who are VERY worth knowing who are way older or way younger than myself, and it would be a shame to miss out on that because I was trying to follow some sort of social guideline that says I have to discriminate based on age. I just can't bring myself to do that.

[Yeahduff]

Guessing this person's seventeen.

Anyway, glad to see this thread. Almost started it a few times myself.

This isn't about a lack of quality, this isn't about the good ole days. At this point I'm wondering if this kind of large scale comic community is even possible to sustain anymore. Everything Keenspace can offer can be found elsewhere, and it's not just the forum that's suffering, it's the hosting site too. Back when the guide still tracked popularity, I found myself on the first page for pageviews. Which was kind of exciting, except I'd done it with not quite half the viewers I had at the height of my popularity.

Anyone can get a blog or their own webspace these days, they don't need this service. Would be surprised if Keenspot doesn't fold it within a year. If we want the forum to survive that, it'll have to become something other than a place for webcartoonists.

[Eve Z.]

Well, I just got some internet access and read the first part of this thread. I know I'm not the most lovely member of this forum. I started okay when I joined, then all of a sudden my IQ dropped dramatically, not to mention my hair colour lightened. I tried to dye it back to my original colour, but I failed miserably. I'm far from being the smartest person around these forums.

Okay, enough with the drama.

It's not just this, I'm not very much into webcomics anymore. On of mine it's on hiatus for an year and a half and I always think I should remove it to clear up some space, and my other one, SL hasn't been updated for a month. I was dreaming to become a famous comic artist, but this dream kind of faded as well. So I decided I needed a break. Then, I found another forum that seemed more friendly to me and I started to hang around there. I didn't have any fight there, I assure you. But slowly, I'm leaving that forum as well because that forum is kind of drowning as well. Now, I'm moving into another place, where they make pixel art, and I'm trying that too. I'm always the person who tries out new stuff.

I will come back one day and update my comic regularly as I used to a while ago.

Now I'm crawling back to my grave and won't show up again for awhile.

[Komiyan]

Anyone can get a blog or their own webspace these days, they don't need this service. Would be surprised if Keenspot doesn't fold it within a year. If we want the forum to survive that, it'll have to become something other than a place for webcartoonists.

Unlikely, I do believe it pays for its own bandwidth, last I checked, so why bother? It's still the best place out there for people just starting in webcomics, and if it isn't please point me to another site that hosts you with unlimited bandwidth for free, without having to qualify a quality check, with full and total control over your pages. The only ones that come to mind are DrunkDuck, Webcomics Nation and Smackjeeves which are equally full of bad comics as CGen is.

[McDuffies]

I'm not thinking of leaving, I'm not as interested in activities or making bff's,

Sure Lego, we'll always be best female friends!

Well, it doesn't help either that there's a lot of intellectual grabass that gets played around here, where people who put in time to make thoughtful and quality contributions are often ignored in order to perpetuate the inside joke that came either before or afterward in the thread. That comes off just as much like hostility as actual snide comments.

I don't think that's it, that used to happen back in the most popular days too. Like I said earlier somewhere, you can't command people what to be interested it, talent in forum communication is not mainly in comic-writing or drawing skills, but in tackling people's interest, and that's one very elusive art.

If we were going to become this, the site would have needed to be set up totally different. Comics would have to be put through an approval process, because let's be honest, there is always going to be far more badness out there than good. To put up a comic, by the nature of this place, is so easy that it's just going to draw in everyone, since there's really no buy in or incentive to do well. You can sit here with the same crappy stick figures or sprites for 5 years and never improve. It's not like you're going to get booted off. Quality in a broad sense can only come from quality control...and that's called Keenspot. Let's be honest, if you distill it down, the only reason Comicgen exists is as a talent pool for them to draw from. That's it. That's all we've ever been.

Yeah, I don't think that owners of this site would support the idea of making it selective and exclusive, cause they already got one such site. I'd like to note that site is actually selective of what it uses for promotion, what it puts on front page (pogs and genchans), it's only newsbox that is not selective.
Some of you folks probably watched the film "Specials" which is about a superhero group of loser superheroes with rather lame powers, they're people who can't do anything right, but in conclusion they decide that their presence is important because they give hopeless people someone to identify with, they incourage real underdogs.
I always saw CG as something like that, authors who are eternally struggling; we were underdogs of webcomic world and kinda proud of it. CG fulfilled that function in webcomic community, and I thought it was a really important function. There were many talented and skilled artists yes, but if memory serves me, most of them weren't nearly as skilled when they first posted here.
Now if someone tells me that there aren't any aspiring artists that qualify to underdog community, that people don't like underdogs anymore - I don't think that's true, everyone has to start somewhere. I think that lack of popularity is more likely because community isn't as friendly/attractive to underdogs.

Also: I have to disagree with the idea that talented people are generally better posters. We've had some folks around here that couldn't draw to save their life, who were big parts of the community. And on the other side of that coin there have been some seriously talented people who were almost universally reviled.

You can kind of see a logic in that people who have wit and sence of humor turn into both good scripts and good posts, though with ton of exceptions. But of course, everyone has his ups and downs.

[Terotrous]

Look at me, coming back to make a mean post.

This place is dead because your talent pool collapsed. You may not agree but talented people, in my opinion, are likely to be better posters.

You used to have decent artists here. Decent writers. These people posted well and did interesting things, and in many cases (This is a looong time ago btw) they were pretty much community cornerstones.

I kind of agree with this (that we've lost some community cornerstones), but I'm not sure it's all about being good. Keenspace always had a reputation for having a lot of crap comics (remember Sluggy, Dawg?), and there were always some talented people here, which seems to pretty much be the situation now. I don't think the quality level has changed so much, there just seems to be less involvement from the talented people and a lot of us have stopped doing comics, so that probably makes us less interesting.

Maybe the secret to bringing the community back is we all have to get off our butts and start drawing again?