Serious Race Question in Entertainment Industry

[NinjaNezumi]

You are right, and I'm sorry ^_^

I did use the word credibility and did not notice.

[Samuli]

It's not about credibility it's about solidarity.

Solidarity and Credibility are two separate things.

Solidarity is Representation. If I wasy say the head of marvel and I went out to specifically find a black writer to write for the black panther that's a show of solidarity - a show of conceptual representation for the black/african american community by specifically making sure that I have someone who has lived their life with racism etc...

No, that's most definitely not solidarity. Solidarity exists between equals - employer and employee are not equals. You are basically talking about giving charity to someone who has not asked for it. A show of solidarity would be for example to join a demonstration in which a minority demands better treatment. That's on equal base - person to person - not employer to employee.

In my country it would be illegal to hire someone on the basis of skin colour or "race".

If you find a good artist, he or she will do the necessary background work and if they don't know how to draw black people then they'll learn. That's what an artist does for a living.

If you have characters who are from a specific culture it might be a good idea to actually go and mingle with these people. Do research, writer and artist alike. Write what you know and know what you write applies to drawing as well. If you find an artist who already knows the culture the characters are from then that's of course an advantage. But that has absolutely nothing to do with skin colour whether you talk about marketing or whatever.

[K-Dawg]

Affirmative action?

[Bustertheclown]

Negative.

[Julesville]

There are like a billion webcomics with people of different races in them, I have no idea of the races of the artists, and it doesn't matter to me. If the work is good and entertaining that's all that matters.

On the Boondocks cartoon, Samuel L. Jackson and Charlie Murphy, two black dudes, do the voices for two white dudes. Not to mention Boondocks is a comic drawn by an African American in an Asian art style. This doesn't make Aaaron Macruder any less credible as an artist.

[Julesville]

A lot of black superheroes have had false starts because their creative existence isn't representing the black community in anyway. They're "white guys with dark skin".
I can count the number of credible black superheroes on my hand.
You have 1 African superhero who isn't a cliche - The Black Panther
You have 1 Black/African American cartoon superhero who isn't a cliche - Static Shock

The rest you ask?
John Stewart - Angry Black Man, Steel - Angry Black Man, War Machine - Angry Black Man, Firestorm 3 - abused angry black collegiate.

Two dimensional characters who lack not only the social representation but outside of only a few issues (and Firestorm 3), no creative representation.

You forgot a whole bunch of really famous Black superheroes.

Storm (Arguably the most famous black superhero)
Spawn
Luke Cage
Blade
Falcon
Bishop
Black Lightning/Black Vulcan (former US Secretary of Education)

And a bunch of sorta famous heroes that I'm sure we remember

Night Thrasher
Mr. Terrific
G.W. Bridge
Vixen
Cloak (from Cloak and Dagger)
Patriot (from Young Avengers)
Synch (from Generation X)
Windshear (from Alpha Flight)
Thunder(from The Outsiders)

None of these charaters are two dimensional, and none of the ones quoted were either (accept Firestorm 3). Blade is one of the most fascinating sociopaths ever. Luke Cage is one of the Marvel legends, lasting like 40 years, and had a huge role in Civil War. Spawn is Spawn, come on, like the most credible non-big 2 characters of all time. Storm is perhaps one of the most famous comic book characters, ones that even non-comic fans can name. And Bishop, as a little white kid, when we played X-Men on the playground, I wanted to be that big black guy, Bishop.

You shouldn't write off these characters. While it's true that black people have been underrepresented in comics, you can't diminish the impact they've made and the legacy they leave.

[NinjaNezumi]

In partial response to the post above I don't think what I discussed qualifies as charity. If it were charity I wouldn't care about the artist's skills, but I definitely care about skills. Those who don't know me I enjoy this type of discussion, sometimes I get real into it, but I don't want to offend anyone. IF you want to call it quits just say quits I won't reply ^_^


I see a new discussion topic coming up - representation of black figures in comics:

The superhero list. I left off a lot of characters you described because I stopped collecting the majority of those particular comics at around the year 2001-2002. Prior to that many of those characters were very much two dimensional cookie cutters of the same character concept. So if we have different views it may be because of the nearly 10 years since I stopped reading those particular comics.


Storm (Arguably the most famous black superhero) ------- storm is an angry black woman, who had no character development until well after Earth X.
Spawn ------ this guy is the angriest black superhero out for revenge out of them all. He's always getting betrayed. Malbolgia, his assassin friend, his best friend marries his widowed wife (not true betrayal but he felt it was betrayal). To top it off as a reader I was screwed over after the spawn ascension storyline when nobody ascended and he was still a jerk that everyone hated. I'm sorry but this is just continuing to reinforce the negative concept of black heroes in the comicbook industry.
Luke Cage ------- half the time he's representative with feelings the other half the time he's no different than "It's Clobberin' Time".
Blade ------ Blade was nothing until wesley snipes took him over and marvel relaunched the comic. Until that point he was angry black guy who dissed spiderman every time he could, whining about bloodlust and then refusing the help of half the people who wanted to help him.
Falcon ------ Ok you've got a good one here. I like Falcon.
Bishop ------ Angry Black Guy from the Future sent back to kill Cable (another assassin - see spawn above), then depending on the X Man writer he shifted to "Oh I'm happy!" to "Everyone gets killed on my watch now I gotta be angry and sullen again." Bishop was awesome for about 3 years during the mid ninties. I haven't seen a cool Bishop since Joey Q took over.
Black Lightning/Black Vulcan (former US Secretary of Education) ------------ Ok, Black Vulcan who appears in maybe one comic every ten years. He's not what I call a main character outside of the Superfriends, which was 20 years before Static Shock came on the T.V. Wasn't he alsoreplaced by that girl Judd Winick turned into a major slut in The Outsiders? The entire run of outsiders is more or less ignored in DC continuity because of a number of major continuity errors.

And a bunch of sorta famous heroes that I'm sure we remember

Night Thrasher ---- have no idea who he is.
Mr. Terrific ----- supporting character, angry black man in most of his incarnations. Again, he's rarely ever used and outside of his JLU appearance I've rarely seen him as other than background noise.
G.W. Bridge --- have no idea who this is so I will reserve comment.
Vixen ---- I remember this name but not the character..

Cloak (from Cloak and Dagger) --- Cloak I always believed was a sort of precursor to Blade. Besides that they are rarely ever in the comics. Marvel uses them once every 5-8 years. I'm sorry I just don't consider either of them to be that representative of any race/creed.

Patriot (from Young Avengers) ---- ok Patriot. Ok. I'll accept him. He came after my reading time but I do know he is one of the superheroes on the "Positive Role Model List" in a previous discussion I had on another board.
Synch (from Generation X) ---- hated generation x dropped it after 2 issues. I won't comment.
Windshear (from Alpha Flight) --- don't read alpha flight so I can't comment
Thunder(from The Outsiders) ---- who replaced black lightning and was totally butchered in that out of continuity book. No writer uses any amount of Winick's outsiders run in continuity.


Now, I will not argue the point that these characters don't have an impact. I'm arguing the point that the overrepresentation of angry black superhero archetypes have a major negative impact. Imagine the civil rights movement with 50 Malcom Xs and only 2 Martin Luther King Jrs.

The truth is the exact opposite. The real heroes of the civil rights movement were men like Robert Moses, Malcolm X AFTER his peaceful conversion, Martin Luthor King Jr., Al Sharpton (yes he was a mover in the 60s, unlike today when he plants his foot in his mouth). There were so many I can't name them. The Black Panthers weren't successful because of Huey Newton's gun toting. They were successful because Bobby Seale reached out with a peaceful hand to the communities and actually spoke against Huey Newton's gun toting (yes they did part on the violence aspect).

A problem that many people have including myself is not that there are Black superheroes who are Angry and full of Angst, but that it seems to be a Hoover Dam full of angry black superheroes.

Bishop, Blade, Spawn - All of them Assassins
John Stewart, Spawn, War Machine - Angry/Cold Black Men who served in the military at some point.
Storm - Very Very angry woman up until right after I dropped X Men. The only time she was a super positive character during my comic collecting days was actually on the X-Men t.v. show which is now on Jetix.
Thunder - turned into a major slut by Judd Winick. I'm sorry but he's the worst writer in the history of comics, and it's been shut out of DC Continuity.

Basically what I see as the problem is we have 50 Batmen for every 1 Superman.


Now I love me some well written Batman, but Batman is an angry white man full of angst. Do you think it'd be healthy to have more than 2-3 Batman characters in the DC universe? Hell, Batman is actually a terrorist by his own admission. He wants people to fear him in order to sustain order in Gotham. He breaks the law and routinely uses torture on criminals in order to break them. The only time Batman didn't do this was during the Adam West T.V. show.


Now I'm not saying people shouldn't like these characters. I think Bishop is awesome (in many circumstances I was hoping he'd kill Cable - he does have a screw loose). I love John Stewart (especially his incarnation in JLU). I'm such a Die Hard fan of TBP that I refuse to have anything to do with his newer butchered incarnation. I've got all of the previous run of TBP and I'm waiting to buy the collected comics of all the earlier runs.

But it's not healthy to overload the comic industry with angry black superheroes.

Here are the archetypes for various heroes. Archetypes I've yet to see in a major black superhero:

* Peter Parker: smart, caring, wise cracking - uses wits. Will get angry but won't act upon their anger unless it's some sort of outside control i.e. the suit.
* Cyclops: Physically capable. Won't take crap from anyone. Intelligent. Caring. Rarely shows anger. Will talk his friends down from a fight even if it means taking an insult.
* The Beast: Hank McCoy is probably the most reserved and intelligent superhero in the marvel universe, I think out of 100 comics I saw him fight angry maybe once. He knew he could break some punks head in at will, but he chose to act out of dignity and grace before resorting to violence. Obviously when he fought things like the Sentinels, Toad, Blob, he wouldn't hold back. But he would still fight out of a "calm center" more times than not. Even when he was perturbed you would only very rarely see him "go over the edge".
* Superman: Ok I think the Patriot qualifies here, but I didn't buy that particular series. The Black Panther almost qualifies here, but I always thought that TBP was Marvel's answer to Batman. Basically the Superman motif is "Truth Justice and the American Way". Captain American applies here. You would see them get angry but again, if some badguy like Luthor was legally immune to prosecution, neither Cap nor Supes would hit them. They'd stand there and take it while trying to figure out how to outmaneuver the villain.
Plastic Man: is there ANY black superhero like plasticman? Hell, is there anyone like Plastic Man at all?
Star Man: Starman ummm was it #4? The guy with a leather jacket who sold antiques and retired to take care of a kid. damn I gotta look it up, I loved this starman. Average joe, almost like Peter Parker, only a bit more mature. Firestorm 3 COULD HAVE BEEN THIS ONE - but three writers and Dan DiDiot made sure he didn't.


I don't know if I've rambled too much or if you understand the point I'm trying to make. I'm really tired as I woke up early. I'll stop my post now because I'm afraid I've begun to ramble.

If you would like me to clarify any comment I made, I'll post a clarification.

[Julesville]

Wow. You know your comics.

http://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories ... tory_Month

[Bustertheclown]

HUGE

Y'know, when it comes to a discussion of underrepresentation, I'm right there with you. However, when it comes to a discussion about misrepresentation, especially in the examples given, I'm going to disagree with you almost completely. I'm not going to write a huge dissertation lining out my specific rebuttals. Instead, I'm just going to sum up.

Looking for believability in superhero comics is silly. At best, superhero characters are spins on established archetypes, which have yet to outlive their freshness. On average, though, superhero characters are full-blown clichés. Depth and subtlety is not the point of these sorts of creations; they work best when painted with a broad brush. Dumb, strong, and slightly unhinged will always play more than nuanced and conflicted. To that end, off the top of my head, I can come up with a good half-dozen popular white hero characters who would fall right in line with your criteria of what makes the debated black characters so "angry." I expect it wouldn't take much digging to come up with a few dozen more.

As far as character archetypes which you haven't seen attributed to black characters goes, maybe next time you could come up with a more obscure list, eh? Plastic Man? Star Man? How about we throw in L'il Abner and Flash Gordon, just for good measure? Scott Sommers' most interesting attribute is his ability to be a straight-man foil for others, meaning he's only as interesting as the characters which surround him. Peter Parker and the Beast I might give you, but I still feel like you're digging a bit deep into the pantheon to find support for your thesis. After all, Beast hasn't exactly ever been much more than a supporting "smart guy" character.

That leaves us with Superman. Truth be told, Superman is a despicable character, filled with loathing for the humanity he protects. I could write a book on how much of an asshole he is. Websites exist to broadcast his dickery to the world. He started his career, on the first page of his first appearance in comics, with breaking-and-entering and assault without cause. Public perception is colored by his mythic status, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a total bastard. If you're looking for virtues, you may not wish to see his attributes embodied within a minority character, after all.

[NinjaNezumi]

Star Man has a pretty common archetype, especially among the more independent publishers like Dark Horse and Image.

I always considered the Savage Dragon to be a star man archetype.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you about Cyclops. He was pretty interesting before Joey Q got ahold of him. That may just be the comic book generation gap speaking there though.

Flash Gordon is a very common "All American" archetype. He fits in with Captain America.

lil'abner isn't a superhero, and if he were to be a black man he'd come off as being racist so no, I won't suggest his archetype

The Beast is a founding member of the x-men and was a major player even through the onslaught series. If the X Men have changed that much that he's deep in the pantheon then I'm glad I don't buy their comics.

As far as Superman goes. I love Super Dickery, but seriously I'm talking about his archetype more than the 1 out of 100 comics that he appears as a punk. Besides, with Best Friends like Jimmy Oleson, I'm surprised he's held back for as much as he has

[Phalanx]

Ugh reading this thread gave me horrific flashbacks of the days where the token asian character was either there to spout out cryptic words of wisdom such as "The cornered panda defending her cubs is fiercer than any tiger" or to be the martial arts guy. Or both.

I'm not a big fan of targeted demographics by race to be honest. From a creative point of view it feels like painting oneself into a corner.

One of the best comics I've read set in ancient China is done by a Caucasian comic artist who did A LOT of detailed research on what it was like, and even the language. If it weren't for his name I would have thought it was done by a Chinese artist.

Speaking as a minority (sort of) I would advocate picking an artist who understands best what you want to do with the comic, regardless of race. Let the work speak for itself.

[NinjaNezumi]

Yea, I think the only time I ever liked the "random asian spouting fortune cookie wisdom" was in Big Trouble in Little China. Of course that entire movie was based off of ridiculousness. Dumb White American Truck driver. Idealistic Reporter. etc...

But you also can't sell if you don't do some sort of demographic targeting.

I will hire whomever is best for the job. It's just a difficult line to walk sometimes ^_^

[Isukiyomi]

It seems that there two issues being discussed here (other than the massive history of comic books @_@): one is representation among artists creating works and the second is the actual work that these artists are producing.

If your focus is on the end product the nature of the actual work comes into play; is the comic about characters in today's world, some type of historical fiction, etc? Of course this also brings into play the goal of said work, what story does the artist want to transmit to the world... by picking a certain artist not only for their skill, are you also drawing on the artist's actual life experience to influence the work?

If your focus is on getting more under represented ethnic groups into the comic world then you have a different issue; you want more of those underrepresented artists getting exposure to a larger industry that they have not traditionally had a sizable presence in.

A lot of creative industries have this tension going; just recently in New York, there was an uproar among black producers because a white producer got tapped to producer a play by the black playwright August Wilson who expressly did not want white producers working on his plays after he died. He said he felt that black producers understood his works better and that his plays gave black producers the chance to do high profile work. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/theater/23wils.html

So basically it all depends on what exactly you are trying to accomplish in hiring a black artist and the work you are trying to create.

[Rkolter]

A lot of creative industries have this tension going; just recently in New York, there was an uproar among black producers because a white producer got tapped to producer a play by the black playwright August Wilson who expressly did not want white producers working on his plays after he died. He said he felt that black producers understood his works better and that his plays gave black producers the chance to do high profile work. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/theater/23wils.html

So basically it all depends on what exactly you are trying to accomplish in hiring a black artist and the work you are trying to create.

Although, this falls more under the heading of, "Good grief, respect the dying man's wishes for his life's work for Pete's sake."

[Phalanx]

But you also can't sell if you don't do some sort of demographic targeting.

I agree you probably should have a target audience in mind, I just don't think that something as unchangeable and unreliable as "race" should be it.

People can't control what race they belong to. But they CAN choose their interests.

I gather from your post that your main focus is providing a realistic "black" superhero to counter the parade of flat "angry black men" that have consisted of superheroes in the past. Frankly if that were the case you've already shut out anyone not interested in that demographic. For example take me... I'm asian and my interest in superhero comics is only so-so. I probably wouldn't even give it a glance.

Hell, even if you created a comic just to depict a realistic "asian" superheroine who doesn't fit the stereotype of sexy exotic oriental babe I'd just think it demeaning. A nice change, but demeaning that we have to have our token asian for something to appeal to us.

But let's say I'm interested in (let me think of something) err... Formula One racing. So you have a superhero whose occupation is working for a F1 team, or maybe he's a driver, or a member of a pit crew. And he does his good deeds in the alter ego while his F1 team tours around the world... Now my interest WOULD be piqued.

The fact that he happens to be from race X and is portrayed with elements of his ancestry and culture is central to who he is and shouldn't be ignored, but it should not be the defining point that makes this character stand out. Because like I said, I can't choose to be "black". But I can choose to like Formula One, as many other people around the world can regardless of race.

Anyway, some food for thought.

[Bustertheclown]

But you also can't sell if you don't do some sort of demographic targeting.

I agree you probably should have a target audience in mind, I just don't think that something as unchangeable and unreliable as "race" should be it....

Good advice. Nice to see you back here, doling it out.

[NinjaNezumi]

Isukiyomi , Phalanx - I enjoyed your posts ^_^

Isukiyomi, I have to agree that the instance you give falls a lot under the "respect a dead man's whishes please!" However, I won't preclude the other degree to which it covers race in the industry. Of course the playwright lived quite some time ago, and a lot has changed in racial understanding. Maybe his attitude would be slightly different if he were alive today?

also:

If your focus is on getting more under represented ethnic groups into the comic world then you have a different issue; you want more of those underrepresented artists getting exposure to a larger industry that they have not traditionally had a sizable presence in.

I think what I'm going to do is advertise for what work the cover art will be, and just see who answers the ad. I could put an advertisement first in a predominately black college see if there are any skilled art students who are interested as well as deviantART. Maybe get two or three covers and use them all at various points. This way it's not like I'm saying "Only black artists apply" and instead just seeing who exactly is interested in working on this. It'll be a sort of first three to respond type of deal. I still haven't figured out where I can advertise for it either so that's another hurdle I've got to overcome.


Phalanx, that's just it though. I do want to appeal to the black men and women of this country, but I also want universal appeal (outside of the aryan nation and the nazi party. I've absolutely no inkling to appeal to them). Richard Roundtree was playing an iconic gritty black hero when he signed up for Shaft - but the movie was so popular among blacks whites hispanics that everyone knows who you're talkin' about when you say "Who's the black private dick that's a sex machine to all the chicks?"

Everyone I've ever quoted that lyric to says: "SHAFT!" after I finish the line. Of course, the song more or less just writes itself. But the point is he was supposed to appeal just to the black community, and yet he gained world wide appeal and notariety because his character was well written and understandable.

I dunno.

Of course my whole problem at the moment is just trying to get people to visit my two sites. which reminds me, I'll get my andrew colon up this week as soon as I'm done with the sound *.wav

[Redtech]

I can't help thinking that the genre of Superheros is writing itself into a corner to an extent. I don't know what the plot, the script or the characters are, it's a noble goal to create something that's more credible than either the cliche' military muscled dude who's angry all the time.

As for art talent, since you seem committed, it might be more worthwhile to work on creating something that's consistent and persistent. People will then see your stuff as being a lot more credible rather than going "oh, so he's done a ghetto story".

At least that's how I'd feel.

[McDuffies]

But let's say I'm interested in (let me think of something) err... Formula One racing. So you have a superhero whose occupation is working for a F1 team, or maybe he's a driver, or a member of a pit crew. And he does his good deeds in the alter ego while his F1 team tours around the world... Now my interest WOULD be piqued.

How did you know I was working on a Formula 1 themed superhero comic!?!

[NinjaNezumi]

But let's say I'm interested in (let me think of something) err... Formula One racing. So you have a superhero whose occupation is working for a F1 team, or maybe he's a driver, or a member of a pit crew. And he does his good deeds in the alter ego while his F1 team tours around the world... Now my interest WOULD be piqued.

How did you know I was working on a Formula 1 themed superhero comic!?!

CORPORATE ESPIONAGE!!!!

duh duh duhhhhhhh



Sorry I couldn't resist.

I can't help thinking that the genre of Superheros is writing itself into a corner to an extent. I don't know what the plot, the script or the characters are, it's a noble goal to create something that's more credible than either the cliche' military muscled dude who's angry all the time.

As for art talent, since you seem committed, it might be more worthwhile to work on creating something that's consistent and persistent. People will then see your stuff as being a lot more credible rather than going "oh, so he's done a ghetto story".

At least that's how I'd feel.

Well you really have three types of superheroes.

Comic booky superheroes (superman, nightwing, ironman, and in ancient history: hercules, odysseus)
Pulp/Literary slightly more realistic Heroes (the original kind - Scarlet Pimpernel, Starman 4? I think he was 4?, Zorro, The Shadow)
Independent/Gritty superheroes (B.P.R.D., Robert E Howard's Conan etc)

I'm really trying to make a more literary type of superhero.

People age and die in my superhero earth. There are some fantastic things, but it's not entirely gritty like say Hellboy or B.P.R.D. or the Conan novels. Although I compare my superhero to peter parker, he's really modeled much more after Robert Moses. People just don't know who he is. He was (still is) a very successful and amazing civil rights leader. He was soft spoken, and a skilled negotiator and reasoner, but stood up for rights and made amazing strides both legally and socially during the civil rights era. He's a very intelligent man, and just a powerful presence.

Clarence isn't a civil rights leader like Dr Moses, but I hoped and tried to model a lot of his ideals after Dr. Moses. So I sincerely hope I'm portraying my character true to form.

I guess you could say Peter Parker + Robert Moses.


People who have read my book say that I've escaped the mold of standard superheroes. I sincerely hope they are right, otherwise it'll be a failure. We'll see when I release my book this year.