Is anyone else creeped out by Kevin and Kell?

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Is anyone else creeped out by Kevin and Kell?

Postby Centurion13 on Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:59 pm

I posted a comment on what passes for Bill Holbrook's blog before deleting my Bookmark permanently. It went like this:

"Y'know, I just killed the Bookmark for Kevin and Kell tonight. It wasn't because of the art, or the topic, or any of the usual stuff.

It's because every single animal in Bill Holbrook's Domain universe is self-aware, as fully conscious as a human being would be.

And I just watched Rudy deliberately kill one of them in order to provide the buzzards with a 'Thanksgiving' feast.

Bill, when you make them all 'smart', cannibalism rears its ugly head - ugly, not because cannibals eat their own kind, but because maneaters are revolting to men no matter what the species.

You could stop equipping the insects with briefcases and I might get over this, but every single one of your animals is a 'furry', an animal skin over, essentally, a human being. It's starting to make me a little queasy the way you portray them to get a laugh.

So I am outta here. No more endless sitcom handwringing over different species getting married (after ten years, who cares?) while the son (who never grows up) runs over the badger waiting by the side of the road in his suit and tie and brings the poor bugger home as 'dinner'. Oh, it is to laugh!

What about the badger's family waiting at home for a father who will never return? Gosh, Bill, you're killin' me.

For all your moralizing I suspect, deep down, you really don't like people all that much.

Ha ha, Mr. Holbrook. The joke's on us."

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else out there feels this way about that strip - and its author? Because the more I think about it, the more I get the impression ol' Bill loves humanity. It's people he can't stand.

And no, the moderator did not let my post get through. They control things very tightly over there....

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Postby Hogan on Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:11 pm

And yet you did not only want Bill to hear that you quiet the comic, but the entire world, and therefore took time to log into and entirely new forum just to talk about how badly treated your taste was in K&K?

Pardon me, but that sounds not like discomfort, but more like a crusade... If you don't like the comic, stop reading it, delete the bookmark and never come back, you don't have to spread your annoyance to the entire web...

As for the matter at hand, I do read K&K occasionally, and is aware of the cannibalism issue you point out, I just choose to ignore it, because in my opinion, Holbrook has created a world were it fits nicely together that such ARE things, and he tactically do not touches the subjects a more deepgoing analysis would provide.
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Postby McDuffies on Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:18 pm

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Postby Centurion13 on Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:45 pm

Hogan wrote:And yet you did not only want Bill to hear that you quiet the comic, but the entire world, and therefore took time to log into and entirely new forum just to talk about how badly treated your taste was in K&K?


Ah, here we go with the offense being against, not some sort of basic right and wrong, but merely 'my taste'. Which of course makes it a matter of opinion and we all know what those are like, don't we? And (of course) it also follows that, this being a matter of my 'taste', there really isn't anything objectionable about the topic, something reasonable to air, something I might want to have reality-checked. It's just me being me. And where do I come off being that in a public forum?

Hogan wrote:Pardon me, but that sounds not like discomfort, but more like a crusade... If you don't like the comic, stop reading it, delete the bookmark and never come back, you don't have to spread your annoyance to the entire web...


You might as well apply the same logic to your reply above; if you disagree so strongly, simply skip over this thread and don't post a reply. But of course, you didn't. Not much into internal consistency, are you?

Oh, and go look up crusade. Throwing it around like that, one might guess you knew what it meant. What's next, 'Nazi"?

Hogan wrote:As for the matter at hand, I do read K&K occasionally, and is aware of the cannibalism issue you point out, I just choose to ignore it, because in my opinion, Holbrook has created a world were it fits nicely together that such ARE things, and he tactically do not touches the subjects a more deepgoing analysis would provide.


Doesn't work in the world I live in. We're supposed to care about the main characters and wring our hands along with the author when (horrors!) 'species-ism' rears its ugly head. Never mind that there ARE no separate species when they all can interbreed! No, it's that Bill wants to eat his cake and have it, too. We must care about his main characters, but ignore the fact that the deer talk, the insects talk; in fact, every creature is rational. And there is nothing but regret when murder occurs, if even that. Most of it is played off for laughs.

Meh. Thanks, McDuffies. I followed that thread and found the answer I was looking for. It reinforces what I have been teaching my son all these years - that the vast bulk of humanity is not above, but below, most things we would consider temptations. They think of ethical standards as a baboon thinks of classical music. That many of them are wealthy as a consequence only makes it worse.

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Postby MegaRose on Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:49 pm

I read it. I like it. I think it's too wordy, every joke has to be explained because of how the world is set up, but I never put too much thought into the whole rampant murder aspect. I think that's its appeal.
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Postby Dr Neo Lao on Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:51 pm

Centurion13 wrote:It reinforces what I have been teaching my son all these years - that the vast bulk of humanity is not above, but below...


Wow. Just, wow.

I am so glad I'm not your son.
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Postby Centurion13 on Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:55 pm

Dr Neo Lao wrote:
Centurion13 wrote:It reinforces what I have been teaching my son all these years - that the vast bulk of humanity is not above, but below...


Wow. Just, wow.

I am so glad I'm not your son.


That makes two of us.

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Postby Nanda on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:02 pm

It smells like troll in here.
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Postby Joel Fagin on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:02 pm

Why is the first thing that happens to any newbie an attack these days?

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Postby Centurion13 on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:06 pm

Joel Fagin wrote:Why is the first thing that happens to any newbie an attack these days?

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It's okay. I didn't come here to troll, and I understand the 'Kill Da Newbie' thing going on. Not much has changed in that respect since the late 1980s, when I was cruising the BBS scene with my hopped up C-128.

Don't want no flammage here, peoples. Don't assume I am some.... whatever and let go with your cannons of outrage. We'll both just waste time ticking each other off.

Dude! a moderator from the Oz? That is sooooo cool. I loved Perth and Fremantle. Hope I can move there and live someday....*sigh*.

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Postby Montyandwoolley on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:08 pm

To be fair, it's a good way of getting noticed! - But then, being noticed isn't always the best thing.





Like when i'm being a ninja, being noticed is a bad thing then. Ruins my ninjaness.
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Postby The Mortician on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:10 pm

All I know is I don't care about the comic. I attempted to read it a while back for about maybe long enough to see the child born but after that I dropped the comic cold turkey. Hell, I didn't even know the comic existed until it was brought up in that thread that McDuffies linked.
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Postby Centurion13 on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:17 pm

The Mortician wrote:All I know is I don't care about the comic.


I guess you've got a point. The thing that got me riled was, here is this supposedly mainstream furry comic, popular with da masses (and, up until a month ago, me) and suddenly it's like everything comes into focus and the image just totally creeps me the hell out. Just from that one strip.

And no one notices! Spectacular thing going on here, subversive as hell, and it slides right past most folks. And when you bring it up, far from getting ' hey, yeah', you get folks scratching their heads or shrugging. Which is why I made the comment about most people being below, not above, such things.

Ahhh, I'm beating it to death. They went over it more thoroughly in the other thread, bless 'em. I didn't know other folks had stumbled across the creepiness until I came here.

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Postby Hogan on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:23 pm

Centurion13 wrote:
Hogan wrote:And yet you did not only want Bill to hear that you quiet the comic, but the entire world, and therefore took time to log into and entirely new forum just to talk about how badly treated your taste was in K&K?


Ah, here we go with the offense being against, not some sort of basic right and wrong, but merely 'my taste'. Which of course makes it a matter of opinion and we all know what those are like, don't we? And (of course) it also follows that, this being a matter of my 'taste', there really isn't anything objectionable about the topic, something reasonable to air, something I might want to have reality-checked. It's just me being me. And where do I come off being that in a public forum?


Lets me first say, that in my eyes at least, you remedied yourself by actually staying around and actually replying to the topic you made... most people posting 1st-posts in the form of a "I hate/don't like/don't read anymore"-post, are never heard from again... and that made me wonder if you were of the kind that just showed up to badmouth a comic, then to disappear again, not staying around to carry on the argument... which you have, very unlikely many others.
Therefore I withdraw the previous part of my post, though I still find it an odd way to introduce oneself in a new forum...

As for the theme of taste then, as I read it, you had read K&K before, but now it suddenly insulted your taste in comics (which greatly differ from person to person... thank <insert deity of choice>) and you decided to quit it?

Centurion13 wrote:
Hogan wrote:Pardon me, but that sounds not like discomfort, but more like a crusade... If you don't like the comic, stop reading it, delete the bookmark and never come back, you don't have to spread your annoyance to the entire web.


You might as well apply the same logic to your reply above; if you disagree so strongly, simply skip over this thread and don't post a reply. But of course, you didn't. Not much into internal consistency, are you?
Oh, and go look up crusade. Throwing it around like that, one might guess you knew what it meant. What's next, 'Nazi"?


Oh I am plenty of consistency, hence why I will withdraw most of my previous statement, with the above mentioned reasons, since you have, by now, shown that you are not just a 1-post troll...
And I would like to point out, that I did, after my initial comments, reply to the content of your post, not just dismissing it...

And no, never Nazi... never ever again.

Centurion13 wrote:
Hogan wrote:As for the matter at hand, I do read K&K occasionally, and is aware of the cannibalism issue you point out, I just choose to ignore it, because in my opinion, Holbrook has created a world were it fits nicely together that such ARE things, and he tactically do not touches the subjects a more deepgoing analysis would provide.


Doesn't work in the world I live in. We're supposed to care about the main characters and wring our hands along with the author when (horrors!) 'species-ism' rears its ugly head. Never mind that there ARE no separate species when they all can interbreed! No, it's that Bill wants to eat his cake and have it, too. We must care about his main characters, but ignore the fact that the deer talk, the insects talk; in fact, every creature is rational. And there is nothing but regret when murder occurs, if even that. Most of it is played off for laughs.


Exactly, and hence why Holbrook does not dwell on the lasting effects of the preys death by mauling, if he did the spell would clearly be broken and the comics loose its merits.
It may not work in the world we live in, but this is a cartoon universe, a warped reflection of our world and society, a world governed by its own laws, and the inhabitants of that world lives in and with it...
Reading a comic is not just inserting it into your world, its you inserting yourself in the world it creates and see things from the point of view issued here. When you do that in full you can understand and enjoy the comic, if not, you withdraw yourself and stop reading it.
It all boils down to a matter of taste and the way of reading that particular comic. I, and many others, read it one way, you, and probably others, read it the other way...

Edit: And quoting from McDuffies thread
Last edited by Hogan on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby McDuffies on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:23 pm

Joel Fagin wrote:Why is the first thing that happens to any newbie an attack these days?

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My thoughts too. Regardless of whether attacks are completely unjustified or not, it's hard to say based on one post whether someone is a troll or have simply chosen a peculiar way to present himself, so people should at least wait for second or third post untill they proclaim someone a troll.
Besides, we have moderators and admins alive, present and sane. I'm sure they'll react if they spot trolling.
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Postby Nanda on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:28 pm

Now it smells like McDuffies in here.
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Postby Centurion13 on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:32 pm

Nanda wrote:Now it smells like McDuffies in here.


And well it should. Thanks for the link steering me to sanity, Mac.

Now, back to writing fluff for a BattleMech. Almost as bad as furries, but at least you don't have to show your feeeelings.....

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Postby Dr Neo Lao on Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:59 pm

Firstly, apologies for the earlier comment. The way your post was written was open to misinterpretation and the impression that I got was that you were teaching your son that your family was superior and that everyone else was inferior.

Centurion 13 wrote:...everything comes into focus and the image just totally creeps me the hell out. Just from that one strip.


Link? I'm not familiar with K&K. I tried reading it a while back and just found that it bored me to tears. I read the earlier discussion, but didn't put too much stock in it. It struck me like the discussions that say that George Lucas is a bad science teacher because in Star Wars it portrays sound in space.
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Postby The Neko on Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:23 pm

Nanda wrote:Now it smells like McDuffies in here.

Hey everyone, please stop having a meaningful discussion! It totally ruins the vibe around here. ZOMG NEKKIDSEXAYLOL.


This reminds me of how Spriteville first came, and while people were first opposed to the "crusade" being launched, he was eventually naturalized into the community. So yeah, don't write someone off right away for registering an opinion about a comic. Maybe, to him, this K&K business was a sudden revelation that he had to immediately impart to people he thought would be interested, as a way of breaking the ice.

Also, CHRIST, that Badger example is disturbing as hell. What does the author think when he's writing this? Is he conscious at all about how disturbing that is? I thought it was pretty bad before, but goddamn.
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Postby Rkolter on Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:28 pm

Dr Neo Lao wrote:Link? I'm not familiar with K&K. I tried reading it a while back and just found that it bored me to tears. I read the earlier discussion, but didn't put too much stock in it. It struck me like the discussions that say that George Lucas is a bad science teacher because in Star Wars it portrays sound in space.


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