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LAO
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Post by LAO »

mcDuffies wrote:it's not as one-sided affair as it's made out to be.
I would say it is.

Pop artists like Warhol had an explicit purpose, being to point out the overexposure and commercialization of our entire world. Monroe and Campbells soup were household names, and so when they were copied and reproduced, you understood the statement.
Todd, on the other hand, is taking things that, while popular online, are unknown to the great great majority of people. I agree on your point that the images he steals are "so old that no one remembers who originally made them", but this hardly excuses the fact that they are stolen ideas that he is profiting from.

On a related note, don't you all remember flipping the fuck out at that member a while ago who traced someone's cat-girl and just added tiger stripes? Seems that stealing was stealing, no gray area, back then. What changed?
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Post by Ataraxia »

mcDuffies wrote:I understand that it seems like he's selling Kelly's work, but that isn't exactly true. He isn't selling Kelly's idea for one, he's selling his idea, it just happens that Kelly's work appeared to him as a way to express this idea of his
If it could be established that he's doing this for reasons of art, that could be a valid defense. If, on the other hand, he's doing this for profit, that isn't a defense. See the case of Wally Wood's "Disney Memorial Orgy".

Of course, I doubt this case will ever get to court.
Possibly Todd is a hack. I don't know the whole history of his, I agree that it can give different outlook at the whole issue than just looking at paintings. It's just the lynch mob mentality that bothers me, it's not as one-sided affair as it's made out to be.
I will agree that there's some ambiguity, but it does still seem pretty one-sided to me. I don't think there's a lynch mob mentality, either- Todd could have resolved this if he had responded maturely, instead he dodged the accusation and called Kelly a pedophile. As far as I'm concerned, from this point on all the invective he gets is well-deserved.
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Post by Bustertheclown »

Frankly, McDuffies, I can't tell if you're just playing devil's advocate here. The evidence, as it's been presented, of Mr. Goldman's chronic "borrowing" is a bit overwhelming.

I wrote an earlier response to this, which I held off on posting, because I'm leaving for the wilderness tomorrow, and probably won't have the chance to respond to any rebuttal. However, fear has been overcome, and here it is:
mcDuffies wrote:Soup can and Marylin Monroe portrait weren't that famous before Warhol's paintings either. Anyways, I figure the guy saw Kelly's image as just another one of internet memes that come from who knows where and where original author is unknown by now.
Please excuse my use of language, since I use it solely as a punctuative, but the first thought that came to mind when I read that was, "the fuck they weren't!"

The Campbell's soup can and Marylin Monroe's face are both icons of American popular culture, and were both icons of American popular culture at the time Warhol made art out of them. That was the point of the work, pointing out the mass-production quality that popular culture can take on when working with imagery and ideas. I can agree that the specific photo that Warhol had used of Marylin doesn't really matter from a global perspective, when looking at the piece at hand, since it was a comment on the interchangeability of artwork within the hype machine. I'd like to point out, though, that the information on that photo was not hard to come by. It was a publicity photo of her shot in 1953, for the film Niagara, by photographer Gene Korman. The fact that I found this info by simply typing "Andy Warhol Marylin Monroe" into Google, and clicking on the first link that popped up, certainly is evidence to show that the origination of the image still bears some significance to the art, and the info has not been lost to the annuls of time.

The soup can, is a different creature altogether. The Campbell's soup can is not famous because Andy Warhol painted them. Andy Warhol is famous because he painted Campbell's soup cans. The cans were his first gallery showing, and they were his first claim to fame. In fact, when asked why he chose the soup can, he replied, "Because I used to drink (soup). I used to have the same lunch every day for 20 years." By using a common comfort food, one which he himself was familiar with, as the subject of his paintings, he brought a fresh perspective to American branding. He took one of the most popular and trusted brands of American grocery, something to be bought cheap, used, and disposed of, and propelled it to the level of an artform. The fame of the soup can paintings lies in the fact that he chose the right product to display.
Like those other examples posted on site that Neko linked. There's a pattern, most of those memes, like the beer poster or the pixelated kitty, are used so much that you practically forget that someone had to create them at some point.
Both the example of Marylin and the soup can are examples of taking objects which are temporary, a throw-away promo photo, and a common can of soup, and immortalized them through the appropriation into forms of artwork. Monroe is still seen as a legendary beauty. Campbell's soup has a resonance with nearly every soup-eating American, and has had that resonance for 110 years now. It had been around for over three generations when Warhol did the paintings. Like Monroe's beautiful face, the red, white, and gold label was universally recognizeable before the time of Warhol's treatment, and it was a testament to the brand he'd chosen, and the personality he'd portrayed, that these pieces of art worked as well as they did.

So, then the question becomes, "are these objects that Todd Goldman is using iconic?" No, they are not. I've heard of Roman Dirge, and read a couple of his Lenore comics. I've seen that stupid beer slogan on the refrigerator magnets of hipster friends. That's about it. The rest of the stuff held up as example has managed to escape my attention completely, and I'm a pop culture junkie and internet addict. Certainly, none of the examples of his 'borrowed' imagery falls within the realm of the common vernacular in popular imagery. Lenore is no Charlie Brown, and Dave Kelly's cat thing is no Mickey Mouse. Hold either of them up to a random sampling of people in the mall, and the only people who may recognize either would be the kids coming out of Hot Topic or a comic shop. I doubt the rest of the world would have any clue.

So then, the question of motive comes up. Why is Goldman using these images, which are pretty obscure beyond the subcultures in which they originated? I mean, if he's claiming that he's using these things as some sort of social commentary, then what, exactly, is the comment? You keep saying it's about memetics, but I'm not buying it. There are much greater examples of a strong internet memes to present, if he's really looking to say something about the viral aspects of wired culture. Why an obscure cat thing, instead of the "All Your Base" guy? Why Lenore, instead of ninjas fighting pirates? Frankly, the meme thing is weak. If you're going to discuss the subject of memetics, then you'd best pick the memes that people are familiar with across the board. If the meme is obscure, then it's not a meme, and the message is lost. Moreover, there are much stronger ways to present that message than merely tracing an image, and selling it to a single individual through a single gallery.

No, I don't buy the meme thing at all. I can't wrap my head around that argument. After all, the biggest attention either of these artists has ever gotten is now from the buzz generated by this controversy. That's memetics at work. So, I guess if that was Goldman's intent all along, he's a fucking genius. However, if it's just a case of a guy getting caught with his artistic pants down, well then, I'll refrain from calling strangers names.
I guess he's simply not the nice guy with some artistic integrity. Though Kelly is the guy who shoots before asking questions and has this particular talent of taking the worst out of men, still...

But that's not my concern, I just wanted to say that it's not such clear-cut case of plagiatrism that it's made out to be.
I agree that this could be no simple case of plagiarism. Copyright law rarely comes down to defining someone as a plagiarist in black and white terms. If Mr. Goldman does intend to cry "fair use!" then, he has to prove it. The only leg he can stand on is going to be under the blanket of parody. Unfortunately for Mr. Goldman, the burden of proof is on him. Should this go to the courts, which might just be a very feasable action, given the widespread sampling he'd done, and the potential for a class-action against him, he has to prove that his work was parody. I'm not sure how that's going to happen, since parody has to have some very specific defining factors, and simply tracing an image is not one of those factors. As far as commentary goes, where's the commentary? There is none. This was not within the realms of academia, or editorializing. Again, simply tracing an image, and painting it, is not a comment. There has to be more behind it, and it should be apparent to the viewer of the piece.

The biggest catch I see here is the part about scruples. Being an ignorant asshole does not exempt a person from the law. A lack of common sense, integrity, and all around charm is not a Get Out of Trouble Free card. You can't just shrug and say, "I thought it was okay," or, "I'm contributing to a discourse." Not in this situation. He's already been quoted as saying that his ideas just come to him without influence. He's already taken credit for, not only the ideas of others, but the execution of those ideas, too. Most importantly, he's already used this to make money. If he thinks he's some sort of nouveux Pop artist, he's working on a level that misses the point of pop art completely. Even the new forms of pop art are taking a crack at pop culture icons. This guy ain't. These aren't icons. If he's trying to take a crack at memetics, he's failed again. The best of these barely qualify as memes, and certainly not all of them do.

And, yes, this is tracing. The only difference between Kelley's piece, and Goldman's piece is that one has a bow, and one has a lightbulb and color. Compositionally, they are the same. Thematically, they are the same. On overlay, the lines even match up, they're saying the exact same sentence! It might as well be a photocopy with some white-out and crayon on it.

The bottom line is this guy is really coming off as a pirate, and unless some very drastic information comes to light in this, I'm prepared to go on thinking that piracy is exactly Goldman's game. It's one thing to be inspired, or to use pre-existing images to make a valid point. It's another thing entirely to use pre-existing images to make money for yourself. This further exemplifies why I believe in registering your work before wide publication, like posting to the internet. At least then, you have some sort of insurance policy attached to your work, not the least of which is legal public record, should you decide that an infringement is drastic enough to take action against it.

Okay. I've spake my piece. Sorry for making it so big and argumentative. Feel free to ignore it, or rip it apart. Off to the mountains I go!
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Post by TRI »

bustertheclown wrote:
mcDuffies wrote:Soup can and Marylin Monroe portrait weren't that famous before Warhol's paintings either. Anyways, I figure the guy saw Kelly's image as just another one of internet memes that come from who knows where and where original author is unknown by now.
Please excuse my use of language, since I use it solely as a punctuative, but the first thought that came to mind when I read that was, "the fuck they weren't!"
My thoughts exactly.

Also I can't help but notice something: Warhol's Soup Can does not contain soup and Campbell's does not sell paintings. If Andy Warhol had expressed his artistic vision by starting a soup company and labeling his cans with the same graphics as Campbell's he would have been sued into the stone age.

Personally I didn't know who Todd Goldman was before this, but I'd seen his work on t-shirts and whatnot. Now that I know he was responsible for all of them my "people whose deaths will improve mankind" list has gotten much shorter.
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Post by Geekblather »

If people are curious at seeing to what extent Goldman has been "borrowing" his ideas, someone has started a website with side by side comparisons of both the original, and Goldman's derivation:

HERE

It's not just Shmorky folks. It's a lot of people who have had their ideas ripped off by this guy. The fact that the prints and paintings he's selling are also being labelled as "fine art" should be an affront to anyone who considers themself an artist, and who puts work into making original content.

I also hate the fact that Goldman claims that he doesn't watch cartoons or read comics. The very fact that he's stealing his ideas from comics proves him to be a liar.

... and what the hell is wrong with reading comics anyway? I like comics!
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Post by Ataraxia »

TRI wrote: Personally I didn't know who Todd Goldman was before this, but I'd seen his work on t-shirts and whatnot. Now that I know he was responsible for all of them my "people whose deaths will improve mankind" list has gotten much shorter.
No need to wish harm on anyone... Litigation maybe but harm no.
geekblather wrote:\... and what the hell is wrong with reading comics anyway? I like comics!
If you read comics, then you're clearly not a real artist; you're just some guy who rips off other people's work for money.
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Post by Geekblather »

Bullcrap I'm not a real artist! I have the poverty to prove it.
I guess this guy also pisses me off because he ISN'T making derivative art. 1. Stealing another persons idea isn't art. 2. Tracing is not derivative.

If he were any kind of artist, Goldman wouldn't be able to help but put his own personal stylistic stamp on the works he's making. Someone who actually draws for a living, rather than a slogan-generator, can't help but develop their own style. Even when people do things that we see pretty often, like fanart, or guest strips, the original artist's mark is plainly evident on the work.

I've taken art classes where you're supposed to study an artist, and mimick something from their style. I had to do it for Cezanne, and Matisse, and even then, no one was trying to pass their work off as a Cesanne or Matisse, nor appropriate someone else's masterwork as their own.

Goldman, you's a hack.
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Post by TRI »

ataraxia wrote:
TRI wrote: Personally I didn't know who Todd Goldman was before this, but I'd seen his work on t-shirts and whatnot. Now that I know he was responsible for all of them my "people whose deaths will improve mankind" list has gotten much shorter.
No need to wish harm on anyone... Litigation maybe but harm no.
I wouldn't say I wish he would die--in fact it would be much satisfying if he had some sort of spiritual awakening renounced his past deeds and devoted the rest of his life to improving mankind--but as it stands now if he were to die, be abducted by aliens or otherwise disappear off the face of the Earth the average level of $#%hole-ness of the human race would go down significantly.
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Post by Stinkywigfiddle »

This is sort of related,
But I hate seeing those pictures of Calvin peeing on the rearwindow of trucks, because I know Bill Watterson did not approve those. He did not want any merchandising of his characters.
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Post by Geekblather »

This is sort of related,
But I hate seeing those pictures of Calvin peeing on the rearwindow of trucks, because I know Bill Watterson did not approve those. He did not want any merchandising of his characters.
I feel the same way. Watterson is notorious for being against overcommercialization of his characters, because it breaks their reality to put them on stickers, mugs, tees, and whatever else people have done. I love Calvin and Hobbes, and I hate seeing stuff like that, that you know no one got permission to use.
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Post by Leperdoctor »

geekblather wrote:If people are curious at seeing to what extent Goldman has been "borrowing" his ideas, someone has started a website with side by side comparisons of both the original, and Goldman's derivation:

HERE

Wow. I think Goldman is to comic artists what Carlos Manstealia is to comedians- a loser plagiarist who happily dances over the lines of "inspiration" and "outright theft" in order to make an easy profit, accepting praise for what he coins 'his works' with one open hand and Googling more unknown artists to rip off with his other hand. He makes a paradoy of artists by achieving fame and fortune by simply compiling good works under one roof, and under one name. What a coincidence the name is his own.

If people are too shy to openly wish violence on his head, I for one support public humiliation. Maybe someone should open an art exhibit based on the greatest art thieves of all times, and Goldman can be the main exhibit.

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Post by LAO »

I made a special mid-week People I Hate card for this issue. Unfortunately I am without a SA account and so only my small number of readers will see my support.

Also, since you brought up Carlos, I thought it funny that I've only named three people in all my hate cards (the rest are groups, actions, etc.) and two of them are Goldman and Mencia. The third was that dastardly Mr. Bauman of eBaum fame. And all three for the same reason.
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Post by Lunar »

Found a story about it here:
http://www.juxtapoz.com/jux/index.php?o ... 1&Itemid=1

Odd thing is that I actually found this using StumbleUpon
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Post by McDuffies »

Frankly, McDuffies, I can't tell if you're just playing devil's advocate here. The evidence, as it's been presented, of Mr. Goldman's chronic "borrowing" is a bit overwhelming.
Well, Buster, actually what I'm doing is trying to see the both sides of the case. So far I've seen one, and it has been repeated to me over and over.
Seems like yesterday, this issue has been spreaded over forums, and all artists who've read it instantly went to their blogs and newsboxes to express their disguist, without thinking twice about the whole thing. Out of five comics I checked for daily update today, all five reffered to this issue in some way. There's an action on Keenspot to buy Kelly's shirt and help him that way. Hard to see it any other way than trying to profit on community's resentment. Frankly, while someone being able to sell other people's artwork for 10.000 is absurd, it would be equally absurd if Kelly managed to sell his original sketch for that amount of money.
The whole thing seems more like a knee-jerk reaction to the possibility that someone could do to them, than as reaction to issue they actually stopped to think about.
Consider this thread" it's named "what a degenerate", not "SA thread" or "plagiatrism" or whatever, but harsh and direct "what a degenerate". It's as biased as a title could be, shoving the opinion of poster into our faces before we even know what it's all about, bringing us the conclusion we're expected to make before letting us see the facts. Doesn't it irritate you, at least a little bit?
Some of it might be loyality to fellow webcomicker. Remember how whenever someone writes an article in papers about webcomics that isn't entirely positive, all webcommunity rises up to write about it in their blogs, to rip the article in sentences, explaining point-by-point who it's wrong. We're somewhat insular, somewhat defensive and sensitive from all the years of working without much public recognition so now whenever we see something as a threat from outside, we're quickly regrouping and forming defansive actions. Actions noone else cares about much, really.
And then there's also this issue: majority of webcomic artists aren't very knowledgeable about high art. Most of them wouldn't be able to put together rant like the one you just did, and very often they're very closed-minded for people who work in medium that itself suffered from other closed-minded people. Comments like :this guy is a hack" and "his painting is worthless" seem to come from people who, frankly, don't seem to have enough ground to be judges of that. I see statements that it's worthless but I didn't see real arguements why it's worthless - not until I tried to defend the case, that is. When you put it together like a few of posters on this page did, the whole case against Todd sounds much stronger. I might argue against a few things in your post, but I won't, no point, there's much more things that make sence there.

Really, I don't have intention to defend Todd. I'm simply trying to see the full picture of the case, and ab a bit irritated that I'm not seeing it. That's all. If someone thinks that for some reason I am obsessed about defending some "plagiator", then all I can say is they didn't get a thing, and leave it at that.

LAO wrote: On a related note, don't you all remember flipping the fuck out at that member a while ago who traced someone's cat-girl and just added tiger stripes? Seems that stealing was stealing, no gray area, back then. What changed?
Well, if you really want to bring that up from under the rug again, remember that it's you who brought it up, not me. But I'm posting it in small letters anyway.
There were a few major differences from this case:
1. As I said, Todd wasn't selling the same concept. I do suggest that he tried to put it in a different context.
2. Artist in question is in the learning stage of drawing, many posters simply wanted to point out that it's a bad way to learn art. Much of them were, actually, well indended.
3. Artist denied that it was traced even presented with original. It's the lie that irritated many. Todd is saying more along the lines of "I did it so what". Not "I didn't do it, similarity is coincidental"
4. I don't see why you're bringing this up to me, actually, I wasn't one of the most vocal, nor one of the most agressive attackers in that thread. Frankly, I thought that it should've calmed a long before it did.

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Post by Rcmonroe »

mcDuffies wrote:Well, Buster, actually what I'm doing is trying to see the both sides of the case. So far I've seen one, and it has been repeated to me over and over.
From the get-go, it seemed to me like most people were being VERY knee-jerky about this and yours was the first post I read that suggested we should pause for a second to think things over and maybe even try to look at things objectively before jumping on the pile. I just wanted to say I appreciated that sentiment.

Since then a few other people have attempted to take a rational approach to this, so you're no longer a voice howling in the wind; maybe you'll take some comfort in that.
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Post by MariaAndMichelle »

geekblather wrote:I also hate the fact that Goldman claims that he doesn't watch cartoons or read comics.
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Post by Jackhass »

The most damning thing is how fucking awful this Todd guy's "art" is. Not only does he rip people off, but he dumbs them down about 10 steps in the process. This guy apparently actually managed to get an art show with this crap?
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Post by TRI »

mcDuffies wrote:Consider this thread" it's named "what a degenerate...."
To be fair, there's reason to call him a degenerate even without the evident plagiarism.
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Post by Ataraxia »

mcDuffies wrote:There's an action on Keenspot to buy Kelly's shirt and help him that way. Hard to see it any other way than trying to profit on community's resentment.
Actually, I can see it as a kind of performance art. Really. It's a scathing criticism of commercial art, and how value is determined not by the art object itself but from the circumstances surrounding that object. It brings to mind Mr.Nobody's speech about the forged $1 bill from Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol.
Really, I don't have intention to defend Todd. I'm simply trying to see the full picture of the case, and ab a bit irritated that I'm not seeing it. That's all. If someone thinks that for some reason I am obsessed about defending some "plagiator", then all I can say is they didn't get a thing, and leave it at that.
I understand your point, and agree with you about the thread title. Originally when I opened this thread I thought it was going to be about child molesters. Admittedly, after a while that did get worked into the conversation...

...

Since writing a few days ago that "I don't see a lynch mob mentality", the rage seems to have risen quite a bit. Even in the original Something Awful thread Kelly has called for people to back off until all the facts are in. As much as I normally love a good Internet drama-fest, I hereby retract my statement about there not being any lynch-mobs.

Fortunately, there has been some decent blogalism done. The guy at Fleen received one of those "Kelly is a pedophile" letters, and instead of simply posting it as proof that Todd is an ass he's been trying to confirm whether or not it was actually sent from David and Goliath. Mike Tyndall's gallery, while it has a definite "Todd is a thieving crook" slant, does offer a lot of comparisons between Todd's artwork and that of others, complete with attributions.

There are a lot of questions in this case which are being confused and twisted together. Is what Todd did legally wrong? Is what he did morally wrong? Is his work art? How much does Todd's intention and/or public reaction change the answers to these questions?

In my opinion, based on reading about Todd and viewing his work, the idea he's marketing is the ironic juxtaposition of cute cartoon characters with rude, funny sayings. He doesn't seem to be selling a commentary on this subject, he's selling the subject itself. I realize this is a subjective judgment and others may form different opinions. I recommend going to the David and Goliath web site and visiting Todd's blog. This is the reason why I said earlier that I don't think he can make a case for commentary or criticism.
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