RH You should concentrate more on your Comics

[Greatbeast]

RH,

No offense (and I am seriously NOT looking to insult anyone, or start a "flame war" or cause any trouble at all in any way)

BUT I do think you should be concentrating more on the comics than trying to convert others to your own religious ideas, or explain them, or whatever it is you are seeking to do.

Your stories are excellent, the characters are Very well done, and anyone can see a reader can become attached to them quite quickly.

To be honest, I would say that the largest percentage of your viewers/visitors come to see your COMICS. (The REAL Comics, such as TALES OF THE QUESTOR and not the Hard Onion things).

Your creative spirit, artistic talents, and I think your strength lies in creating excellent stories we all want to read.

I have noticed that as your comics have become fewer and fewer, so have your donations.

Bothering to debate religion will win no converts. Nor make for happy readers. We are (I can wildly assume) from a lot of places in the world, and probably encompass nearly every religion and belief system there is. If someone is looking for a new religion, they will seek it out whether or not you shout your own beliefs from the mountaintop.

All I can really say is this: Find your Path again.

Leave the distractions such as religious debates and politics to other places.

Create your stories.

We will be there to read them.


GB

[Tom Mazanec]

A lot of us have been trying to tell Ralph this. His response has been along the lines of "go pound salt". He locked a thread devoted to helping him do his comics better and make more money in the process. Lotsa luck with this thread, greatbeast.

[Lazerus]

Well......this might be because I'm hostile to Ralphs religous ideas, but I agree. His stories are good enough that I stick around no matter how much I disagree with them, he should focus on what' he's awesome at.

[StrangeWulf13]

How many of you run comics? Hmm? How many of you are authors of webcomics, however well-known or anonymous they may be?

You criticize the man for not listening to your advice, yet I wonder by what authority you give it to him. Is it because you want him to focus more on the comics? Or is it you don't appreciate him trying to simply state who he is and what his opinions are? Honestly, if you don't like things, you're free to leave. No one is stopping you.

And yet, many have stayed. I've witnessed one person on these forums talking about how they're leaving... at least three times. This implies they're using it as a threat. In case you haven't noticed, it's worthless. Ralph keeps doing things as he's always done.

As he once said, "We are the salt of the earth, not the powdered sugar." He shares his religion because he is called to do that. And you fault him for that? Is he really "forcing" his religion on people who come to a website? A site they can merely click away from if it bothers them so much?

It's really rather pathetic. I keep seeing people threaten and harass Ralph when it would be easier for them to just ignore him and go elsewhere. Less conflict, less headaches; everybody wins. Instead, many of them stay and being to dictate what he should do with his comic. Without so much as a hint of whether they know what they're talking about.

Of course, some are just honest suggestions for how he could bring in more money. These are appreciated, though it's unknown whether Ralph could implement them or not. What works for some will not work for others.

Frankly, if you're that bothered by what Ralph has to say on religious and political matters... click away. No one is keeping you here. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying, "Stay here and read this, or you're dead!" It is his site, if only borrowed space, and I believe he has the right to say what he wants.

I would like to see more Questor myself, along with the other two, yet I know I'm not in control here. Ralph is. And he will use the site as he deems fit.

Take it as you like it.

[Merry]

I already stopped reading 2 of Raphs Comics. There are enough interesting Comics on the Web that actually update. It would pain me to leave TotQ, because I find it very refreshing and thought out (This might be because i am a Pen&Paper Roleplayer).

Heh, i even tried to motivate RH in suggesting i pay what would buy me 2-3 fullsize-fullcover paper Comics for his providing of 1 wich only has to go online (see the TotQ Challenge or something like that - it got probably burrowed under political discussion by now).

I currently return to the Forums to see how those threads i posted on turn out, and then i will take a break from TotQ myself. No reason to return daily to a comic that doesnt update, no?

[MikeVanPelt]

I think what Ralph does that propagates his views most effectively is via the marvelously well-written segments in his comics -- Quentyn reciting the 23rd Psalm as he hacks his way toward the rat king, fulling expecting to die in the attempt; Ben and the Posse finding out the truth about "Ronald McSatan"; Quentyn talking about his faith to Colin; Ben going to his pastor with his concerns about the Posse; the Arab Christian convenience store owner in "Nip and Tuck" with his quiz; the whole thing about Ben and Lily being determined to remain chaste in their relationship; the Brother Lineaus story line.

These story lines were, IMHO, done with a very nice touch, not too heavy-handed, and arising naturally from the characters.

There's a line from C. S. Lewis, about how people who aren't believers are on guard against "getting preached at". Something about slipping the Gospel "past watchful dragons", which has to be done carefully, and with some subtlety.

I like the Hard Onions strips; I just think that the LJ or a separate comic would be a better place for them. The strips really sell themselves, as long as potential fans aren't driven off before they can get hooked.

[Xellas]

Honestly, I have to say that in every experience I've ever had with RHJ, he's come across as extremely heavy-handed and hard-headed. A LONG time ago I tried to get into the forums and was shot down pretty quickly and left the forums because it was made very clear to me that nobody thought anywhere near the same way I did and that my opinions would not be respected in the least.

From past experiences, I predict RHJ will simply ignore this thread or come on and chew you out for suggesting he change the way things are done. However, I'm not going to stop reading the comics until he stops posting them because I enjoy TotQ, and the non-political N&T stuff, and most of Goblin Hollow. I would like to see him give HO its own site or LJ however, because it doesn't fit well with the overall themes of the other comics, and in the end the people come to read the comics, not RHJ's political and religious ideas.

[Skull]

How many of you run comics? Hmm? How many of you are authors of webcomics, however well-known or anonymous they may be? You criticize the man for not listening to your advice, yet I wonder by what authority you give it to him.

Mr. Hayes said as much in one of the locked threads. To paraphrase, "If you aren't a profesional webcomic artist, you have no place to be telling me how to run mine."

Which is a load of manure, of course.

By those same rights, since Mr. Hayes is not a preacher or pastor by profession, he has no place telling us, through his Onions strips, about religion. Or since he's not a woman, he has no place telling us about feminists, abortion, or women's rights. Not being a politician, he has no place telling us about Democrats, and not being a soldier, he has no place telling us about the War in Iraq. Since he's not homosexual, he has no place telling us about his views on gays.

I have been "online" for over fifteen years, and I've been reading webcomics since 1996. I clearly recall when Penny-Arcade was new, and I started reading PvP when it was only a few months old. I remember Doctor Fun, I remember when Rework the Dead was first posted, and I fondly recall Sully & Minkle.

I watched Arcade grow into the industrial monster it is (they've brought in over three quarters of a million dollars in donations to their Child's Play charity so far this year) I recall reading the announcements from Pete Abrams, Jon Rosenberg and Howard Tayler, more or less in that order and years apart, stating they were quitting their jobs to run the comics full time.

No, I don't do a webcomic. I can't draw my way out of a damp paper bag. But I read many dozens, and have read thousands. I don't need to be a filmmaker to know when I like a movie, and I don't need to be a chef to know when my steak's been burned.

I do, however, run a photography resource (among them a forum similar to this one) and I earn between $1,500 and $2,500 per month off of AdSense and banners; a system not all that different from what webcomics use.

I do not allow (excessive) religion or (heated) political discussions in the off-topic forums. Why? Mr. Hayes would undoubtedly say I'm "persecuting" the Christians and I'm undoubtedly a bleeding-heart liberal and won't brook The Truth from conservatives. Both of which are, of course, wildly wrong.

The truth is, I could watch my site traffic stats drop, and watch my ad revenue and impressions counts drop, when there were heated religious or political debates going on. And not being a religious or political board (Nikon vs. Canon is sufficiently heated enough for us) I saw no reason to allow a few loudmouths to ruin the fun for the rest of my members, and cut into my income.

Today, I point anyone who wishes to argue politics (at least beyond a light ribbing, I'm not a "tyrant" as Mr. Hayes claims so proudly) to the excellent Straight Dope Message Boards, where I've been a member since the AOL days. If you wish to argue either politics or religion with these people, you'd best bring your "A" game. Mr. Hayes wouldn't last ten minutes there.

Is it because you want him to focus more on the comics?

Yes, that's exactly it. I've stated as such, directly, at least twice.

To reiterate: At one time I enjoyed all three strips. I eventually dropped Tuck because I felt it wasn't going anywhere and began to get annoyed with the "greeting cards", I then dropped Goblin when Mr. Hayes retconned it, also because I felt it wasn't going anywhere, and was too-often interrupted by the cards. The retcon gave me an excuse I needed to pull it from my bookmarks.

I held on to Questor despite the cards, because it was a better story than the others, the artwork better, and was less overtly political or religious. As Mr. Van Pelt notes, the scenes with the priest and Quentyn's necklace were, in my opinion, how, a hotbutton concept such as religion should be presented. It's rammed down no one's throat, not presented in a condescending tone, and presents that belief system in a pleasant, positive light.

But, with the further interruption of the story with the Onions strips, I eventually dropped Questor as well, and was prompted to come here, register and voice my complaint, much, it would seem, as Greatbeast.

Or is it you don't appreciate him trying to simply state who he is and what his opinions are?

That's correct, I don't. I visited to read Tales of the Questor. The greeting cards and Onions strips had nothing at all to do with that storyline or it's characters, and clearly displaced the actual strips to the point where the actual comic was barely weekly, and on such an erratic schedule one could never know when a new strip was to be posted.

If I wanted to read Mr. Hayes' political views, I would read his LiveJournal. I do not, so I don't. I came to read Questor, and since the comic was subverted by the LiveJournal rhetoric, now I don't even read that.

Honestly, if you don't like things, you're free to leave. No one is stopping you.

I know, and I have. But the twist here is that Mr. Hayes supposedly makes his living off these strips. Is telling loyal readers to "go away" the proper attitude to present?

And yet, many have stayed. I've witnessed one person on these forums talking about how they're leaving... at least three times. This implies they're using it as a threat. In case you haven't noticed, it's worthless. Ralph keeps doing things as he's always done.

Quite. Except that how many people announce they're leaving, if they're not already a mamber of this board?

When I dropped Tuck, and then later dropped Goblin, I made no announcement, I stood on no soapbox. I simply though to myself "that's enough of that", deleted the link out of my bookmarks, and simply continued surfing on to the next comic in my list.

This board might represent Mr. Hayes readership, but that representation is skewed, and likely only a sliver of the current or potential readership. A more accurate number would be the site traffic stats, if they're enabled on the comics. I'd be curious to see those raw, unvarnished numbers, as I suspect the trend is either flat or downward.

As he once said, "We are the salt of the earth, not the powdered sugar." He shares his religion because he is called to do that. And you fault him for that? Is he really "forcing" his religion on people who come to a website? A site they can merely click away from if it bothers them so much?

A site that requires traffic and as many readers as it can muster in order for Mr. Hayes to earn a living, yes. If it were his hobby, done simply for the enjoyment of it while he held some other job which actually paid the bills, then yes, I would have no problem whatsoever with Mr. Hayes doing whatever he pleased with his strip.

But since he has stated publicly, in announcements posted in place of the comics themselves, that the strips were his sole source of income, that he lived off the donations, that donations were so meagre of late that he was forced to leave his apartment and move back in with his parents, then perhaps it is worthwhile to point out that suggesting either directly or indirectly that we, the reader, should "go away", is perhaps not the best of business decisions.

Of course, some are just honest suggestions for how he could bring in more money. These are appreciated, though it's unknown whether Ralph could implement them or not. What works for some will not work for others.

I realize my horse is dead, but most of my suggestions are rather universal. A regular schedule, clear archives, and an absolute minimum of non-story fluff and filler. All of those apply to almost every comic; at least, those that wish to become successful.

~fin.

[Greatbeast]

How many of you run comics? Hmm? How many of you are authors of webcomics, however well-known or anonymous they may be?

You criticize the man for not listening to your advice, yet I wonder by what authority you give it to him. Is it because you want him to focus more on the comics? Or is it you don't appreciate him trying to simply state who he is and what his opinions are? Honestly, if you don't like things, you're free to leave. No one is stopping you.

OK Strangewulf.....I'm not giving advice.

I am a reader asking someone who produces a comic to produce THAT comic.

NOT some other random comic.

IF there were a site for Hard Onions I would have no interest in visiting it.

I DO have interest in reading Tales of the Questor.

I personally do NOT care about someone else's religious views, or want to see front and center a birthday card in place of a comic I want to read.

I just want TOTQ back, in some reasonably updated fashion.

If there is serious effort of producing a geniunely good comic, I will support it by reading, and occasionally (as in the past) giving donations to it.

I would think that for all the loyal readership here, we should get the actual strip posted.

People here have given and given and given to RH. His taxes were paid off for him, he was living off his comics for a year or more.

I thnk the least we can get is the actual TOTQ posted once or twice a week

GB

[Shyal_malkes]

well, I will vouch my support for Ralph, I know the holidays, plus all this moderator stuff has probably been stressfull (to say the least) on him.

if I weren't strapped for finances at the moment I'd donate more.

[Madmoonie]

Mr. Hayes said as much in one of the locked threads. To paraphrase, "If you aren't a profesional webcomic artist, you have no place to be telling me how to run mine."

Which is a load of manure, of course.

Actually, its not. You have no porfessional critera to criticize him. And for vast majority of the people who read the comics, they are FREE.

By those same rights, since Mr. Hayes is not a preacher or pastor by profession, he has no place telling us, through his Onions strips, about religion. Or since he's not a woman, he has no place telling us about feminists, abortion, or women's rights. Not being a politician, he has no place telling us about Democrats, and not being a soldier, he has no place telling us about the War in Iraq. Since he's not homosexual, he has no place telling us about his views on gays.

By that note, you must be....a pofessional webcomic artist who has been elected to public office on a Democratic party ticket AFTER spending several years in Iraq and Afghanistan, and who also moonlights as a political activist for Green Peace, ELF, PETA, and GLLP. By declaring that he is infringing on your free speech rights, he has no right to tell you his? Sounds RH is only allowed to speak ideas that YOU think are right.

You guys took away his MOD rights. Are you trying take away what rights he has to make his own comics, to? Do you want stand over his shoulder and declare that what he is drawing is wrong and he MUST do what YOU think is right?

[The JAM]

But would Ralph listen if the advice was presented to him by the author of Penny Arcade?

[Tom Mazanec]

My sole income from the web is a $64.32 check from Pyramid Magazine. I offered Ralph a twice a week TotQ just before I posted the challenge here, and I will not quote his response, but it reminded me of a hobby shop owner back when I was trying to reenter model rocketry (just TRY to find a place you can launch those puppies now). Said hobby owner soon went out of business. I have contributed, relative to my income (which will soon be approximately minimum wage with the hikes on the horizon) more than I imagine 99 and 44/100s percent of the readership. I am a customer, and Ralph is a business owner. I have a right to comment on the service, even if I am not a businessman myself.

[Madmoonie]

You do have the right to comment and even criticize the 'service.' I feel I did not state what I felt clear enough. Sorry. As a reader (and you particularly as a paying customer) you certainly have the right to comment/criticize what is going on. What I was saying is that is RH's comic and he should not have run his comics through some 'approval committee' to appease the masses. You know, UTLT/GH, N&T, and TotQ used to be a one-a-week comic. And yet people complain that they are not getting enough. Occasionally we get TotQ five times a week! For such an involved comic that is insanely fast. As I said, for a vast majority these comics are FREE. And yet people keep demanding more and more and more. But only of what THEY want. Anything besides what they want can not and will not be tolerated. And is also to be put down with extreme prejudice. So Ralph is free to draw as much TotQ comics as he likes as long as he does nothing else. Because that is just offensive.

[Tom Mazanec]

We might as well let this thread die. It is not covering any ground that has not been covered before (sorry greatbeast) and it is just stirring up bad feelings. Ralph will do what Ralph will do, so this is just cluttering up the forum.

[Skull]

Actually, its not. You have no porfessional critera to criticize him.

I don't? I pointed out how I make a significant portion of my living in a manner no different than how many successful webcomics do; by selling ads on a website visited by readers on a regular basis.

Schlock Mercenary, Goats, Something*Positive and Penny-Arcade all make or made the majority of their income off ads.

Do you see that ad above this very thread? Somebody's making money off that. My ads that I place in a similar location on a similar board net me, by themselves, over $1,000 a month.

Do you see that ad at the top of each comic page? Somebody is making money off of that. Randy Milholland of Something*Positive sells those banners for something like $45 a day.

Sorry. I might not be a webcomic artist, but I am a person who makes a living both convincing people to pay for the pictures I create, and from traffic to a website.

By that note, you must be....a pofessional webcomic artist who has been elected to public office on a Democratic party ticket AFTER spending several years in Iraq and Afghanistan, and who also moonlights as a political activist for Green Peace, ELF, PETA, and GLLP. By declaring that he is infringing on your free speech rights, he has no right to tell you his? Sounds RH is only allowed to speak ideas that YOU think are right.

You do know those were examples of a specious argument, right? In that Mr. Hayes telling me I have no right to proffer advice as I'm not a webcomic artist is as fallacious as my telling him he has no right to tell me about the Iraq war because he's not a soldier.

In any case, in one of my earlier posts on the subject, I did link to resources by professional webcomics. User Friendly sells a whole book on making your website, including a webcomic, profitable. Considering JD has been living off his webcomic (and ad revenue) since before Mr. Hayes ever started his, I'd say one can probably call him a professional. I also pointed out the fellow that did the graphics for this very page (see the link to Mr. Fagin at the bottom of this page) has a page of resources on starting and improving one's webcomic.

~fin.

[Axelgear]

I have a suggestion for Ralph on how to buff up business:

Create a Tales of the Questor mini side-comic thing. A one-off showing a typical episode of TotQ, or maybe a side-quest thing. About 5 pages is all that is needed. Then, get it reproduced in professional comic book style and get, I dunno, 51 issues (50 to give out, 1 to keep for posterity) and give them away at a local comic book store with a contact address for people to talk to you about buying the TotQ comic, maybe let them see a link to the comic... The end result is typically one of two reactions:

1. A temporary pick-up in business where people will buy just enough stuff to cover the expenses
2. A huge boom where reactions spread throughout the internet pretty quick.

I have other ideas, but some of them may lead us all having a sudden lack of comics, so I will keep those to myself.