OT: Infinite Energy, Atlantis, and other meme's

[Lazerus]

I felt inclined to post this after reading some posts on this forum about "infinite energy" and 300% efficient machines.

I've noticed that certain ideas seem to persist in our culture. An over 100% efficent machine, Atlantis, the 9/11 conspiracy, aliens, etc etc. These are presented as serious, scientific claims, despite the patient absurdity of them. Some, have been disproven, some there's absolutly no proof for, some are flat out physicly impossible.

To quote: "Wow, this argument is so compelling and well organized, you can barely even tell there is no supporting evidence whatsoever."

And yet they persist.

I was wondering if anyone on this forum could speculate as to why they persist. Anyone who's done so much as five minutes of research knows their bullshit, yet many people cling to them. Other irratonal beliefs (Scientology) you can see why people might cling too, they have an emotonal investment in it being true. This is just stupid.

Anyway, your thoughts?

[BrockthePaine]

For the machines, it's certainly a product of wishful thinking. Atlantis is well-known simply because it has stuck around so long (I recall that it was first mentioned by Aristotle?). The 9/11 Conspiracy? Dunno about that one, but most of the people I've heard spouting that theory have been total crackpots who'd probably believe I'm Napoleon reincarnate (I'm not, I'm actually the Duke of Wellington!). Aliens? Well, for me, the jury's not conclusively proven that true or false yet... they MIGHT be out there and they MIGHT NOT be, so. *shrugs*

Anyways, you'd be amazed at the truly abyssmal, Earth-shaking, stupidity people display.

[Aurrin]

Anyway, your thoughts?

I concur with Brock. The only things I'd have to add are:

1) Atlantis may have had beginnings as a true story about a nation of (relatively) advanced island traders. It wouldn't have taken much to be 'advanced' then. Then, volcanic activity destroyed the island. Such things do, in fact, happen. (For example, Port Royal, of Pirates of the Carribean fame, slid off into the ocean.) The tale would simply have been exaggerated at each telling until suddenly you have a mythical lost continent.

2) Aliens: It's entirely possible. Especially Roswell, where the craft is thought to have been struck by lightning. (Lightning is a formidable natural phenomena indeed.) Subsequent stuff, however, is mostly doubtful. There are only a very small handful of incidences that may actually be real, and it's unlikely we'll ever sort the truth from the white noise at any rate.

[Tom Mazanec]

9/11 conspiracy is probably political...people who hate Bush are prone to believe anything bad about him, even if it is ridiculous. I have heard the same thing (other side of the aisle) about Pearl Harbor.

[Dapple]

Everyone got to have a hobby, or in some cases obsession.

[StrangeWulf13]

I know some people might hate me for this, but I'm gonna quote it anyway...

Wizard's First Rule: People are stupid.

Explanation: People will believe anything, provided that they want it to be true or fear it to be true.

There are no real exceptions to this rule; we all have times when we believe something totally ridiculous and untrue because we like it or are afraid it's the truth.

In the case of Atlantis, many people are drawn to tales of mystical cities that meet with disaster (try playing Journeyman Project 3 sometime... El Dorado and Shangri La also end up dust). Many of us would like to believe there's at least someone out among the stars, no? Machines that put out more energy then they receive would also be nice, and reduce our dependence on other sources dramaticly.

And God knows there's plenty of nutjobs who'd love to blame anything on Bush to get him out of office, even if it meant selling our whole country to the jihadists.

Jesus said we'll always have the poor. Unfortunately, I think He meant the poor in braincells as well...

[Lazerus]

And God knows there's plenty of nutjobs who'd love to blame anything on Bush to get him out of office, even if it meant selling our whole country to the jihadists.

Thank you for bringing politics into this you moronic deranged wingnut. Kindly go away now.

[Tom Mazanec]

We believe them because they are FUN!

[LoneWolf23k]

Conspiracy Theories are the modern day equivalent of old superstitions.. Just as people in the middle ages were convinced faeries dwelled in the woods, nowadays people believe in Evil Government Conspiracies..

The Men in Black are our new "Little People"

[StrangeWulf13]

And God knows there's plenty of nutjobs who'd love to blame anything on Bush to get him out of office, even if it meant selling our whole country to the jihadists.

Thank you for bringing politics into this you moronic deranged wingnut. Kindly go away now.

You brought it in yourself. You mentioned the 9/11 conspiracies, and frankly those are the products of leftwing extremists who dearly wish to see Bush thrown out on any charge, real or imagined.

You asked for the reason people would believe such things. Don't get mad with me just 'cause you don't like what I have to say!

[Lazerus]

And God knows there's plenty of nutjobs who'd love to blame anything on Bush to get him out of office, even if it meant selling our whole country to the jihadists.

Thank you for bringing politics into this you moronic deranged wingnut. Kindly go away now.

You brought it in yourself. You mentioned the 9/11 conspiracies, and frankly those are the products of leftwing extremists who dearly wish to see Bush thrown out on any charge, real or imagined.

You asked for the reason people would believe such things. Don't get mad with me just 'cause you don't like what I have to say!

No, those are the product of damaged minds. Not even the craziest left-wing politician actually believes that.

[StrangeWulf13]

Sir, you do insult me. Never once did I say "politician", and I kindly ask you not to put words in my mouth. I worded things so as to indicate I was talking about the people who stand out in the rain with badly painted signs and burn Bush in effigy.

If you wish to discuss this, be civil, and stop trying to make me look bad. It's backfiring.

[Axelgear]

aliens, etc etc. These are presented as serious, scientific claims, despite the patient absurdity of them. Some, have been disproven, some there's absolutly no proof for, some are flat out physicly impossible.

Excuse me, but HOW are Aliens impossible? Any logical and rational mind will recognize the possibility of life arising elsewhere, and, whether it does or does not exist, the theory of its existance has not been disproven while proof does remain in favour of its existance (Such as gas clouds containing possible building blocks for life, the debatable micro-fossils in Martian meteorites, etc.). There is also the suggestable idea that Aliens have visted us, for which proof DOES exist but very little is accepted by the scientific community despite tests in several reputable laboratories on such items (Such as fragments of 100% pure aluminium, a feat yet to be achieved on earth) and the rather unusual denials by the United States seem unusually anxious to prove them wrong. I do not subscribe to any other conspiracy but the theory of the United States, Britain, and other larger nations hiding information about Aliens does not seem implausible to me. And before you say FTL travel is impossible, it's not...

[Xellas]

Excuse me, but HOW are Aliens impossible? Any logical and rational mind will recognize the possibility of life arising elsewhere, and, whether it does or does not exist, the theory of its existance has not been disproven while proof does remain in favour of its existance (Such as gas clouds containing possible building blocks for life, the debatable micro-fossils in Martian meteorites, etc.). There is also the suggestable idea that Aliens have visted us, for which proof DOES exist but very little is accepted by the scientific community despite tests in several reputable laboratories on such items (Such as fragments of 100% pure aluminium, a feat yet to be achieved on earth) and the rather unusual denials by the United States seem unusually anxious to prove them wrong. I do not subscribe to any other conspiracy but the theory of the United States, Britain, and other larger nations hiding information about Aliens does not seem implausible to me. And before you say FTL travel is impossible, it's not...

FTL, by any theory we have, is either impossible or requires materials that most likely do not exist (so called 'exotic matter', which radiates antigravity so to speak). At least that's by any theories I've heard of, and being a huge fan of space travel and astrophysics, that's most plausible theories that exist. The simple fact is that the faster you go, the more you weigh, and therefore the more energy it takes to make you go even faster. This begins accelerating exponentially as you approach the speed of light, meaning that anything with mass cannot even reach the speed of light, much less exceed it. That doesn't even get into relativistic time dialation, which increases exponentially the closer to C you get, which logically would mean that at C time would effectively stop for you, and if you exceeded C that time would begin to flow backwards. So barring something like Star Trek's subspace, I'd say FTL is pretty much impossible.

As for Atlantis, 100+% efficient machinery, and coordinated alien visits to Earth... I just call bullshit on all 5. Atlantis is likely an overblown fairy tale, and 100+% efficient machinery is impossible by the laws of thermodynamics. And while it's possible we've had alien visitations, I doubt there's a huge conspiracy hovering around and that they are here routinely.

[Axelgear]

FTL, by any theory we have, is either impossible or requires materials that most likely do not exist (so called 'exotic matter', which radiates antigravity so to speak). At least that's by any theories I've heard of, and being a huge fan of space travel and astrophysics, that's most plausible theories that exist. The simple fact is that the faster you go, the more you weigh, and therefore the more energy it takes to make you go even faster. This begins accelerating exponentially as you approach the speed of light, meaning that anything with mass cannot even reach the speed of light, much less exceed it. That doesn't even get into relativistic time dialation, which increases exponentially the closer to C you get, which logically would mean that at C time would effectively stop for you, and if you exceeded C that time would begin to flow backwards. So barring something like Star Trek's subspace, I'd say FTL is pretty much impossible.

Ok, a few quick things:

1. By our laws of physics, Black Holes cannot exist. Clearly they do. Light has also been sped up and other objects have been observed moving faster than light. Scientists are just so in love with the idea that they refuse to let it go.

2. Weight increasing as you increase in speed is more to do with the gravitational pull and density of objects than speed itself. In space, when the pull of gravity is minimal, you could easily enter FTL speeds without crushing yourself as your, and your ships, weight is negligible. However, if you were, say, a planet, then yes, you'd compress into a Neutron Star.

3. Wormholes have also been proven to exist. No-one knows where they go and the only observable ones are only a few microns wide, but if theory stands up to it, Wormholes would allow FTL travel.

4. The idea of regular Alien Visitations does not seem so preposterous. The evidence, all be it widely unregarded, and constant eyewitness accounts, videos, etc. All seem more or less disregarded. The Governments of the world have repeatedly scrambled to try and cover up information regarding UFO's (Most recently Britain, whose military and scientific branches are scrambling to prevent the information from becoming Public Domain), which, whether involving aliens or not, smacks of high secrecy. Now if they said "We're testing new secret planes", as they have before, this would be less suspicious, but as they have not said something they have had no problem with saying before, it just seems incredibly odd...

[Shyal_malkes]

I've always thought about aliens and the possabilities (most of which I presume are fictional) but I have always wondered about what could or could not be out there.

personally I like to think about questions few have asked before, I wonder about inverse light, where normal light has a pairing of magnetic and electronic energy. inverse light is an attempt to reverse the pairing and see what happens. does anybody knwo if anyone has experimented with stuff like that before?

[Tom Mazanec]

shyal_malkes
That post makes no sense to me. Could you explain better what you mean by "inverse light"?

[Shyal_malkes]

a photon always has a pairing, from what I've always seen it's north with negative which then oscilates to a pairing of south with positive. most 2d graphs of light show light's wavelengths only going up and down, a 3d one however show both magnetic and electronic properties, usually with north and south being up and down and positive and negative being left and right, with one wave going up and down and the other going left and right and both waves in perfect sync with each other.

my question is if any kind of light occurs with different parings, say north with positive and south with negative. mostly just the idea of "if we made this kind of light and shined it on something, what would happen?" that's all inverse light really is, just with a different pairing up of electronic and magnetic energy.

I know every element has some frequencies it gives off when heated up or energized and also absorbs when it's cooled, I suspect that if anything were to happen it would be with the inverse light at a frequency that matches the frequency of normal light that is given off from matter that is energized, and where that same matter is the matter that the light hits.

the other problem is that I don't even know where to begin to do the experiment myself nor to find if anyone has done it alraedy.

I've dreamed, guessed, hypothesized, but I've never found out if anybody actually tried the experiment before. it's driving me nuts not knowing if I'm just dreaming something that's already proven to not work or not exist.

did that make any sense?

[Lazerus]

FTL, by any theory we have, is either impossible or requires materials that most likely do not exist (so called 'exotic matter', which radiates antigravity so to speak). At least that's by any theories I've heard of, and being a huge fan of space travel and astrophysics, that's most plausible theories that exist. The simple fact is that the faster you go, the more you weigh, and therefore the more energy it takes to make you go even faster. This begins accelerating exponentially as you approach the speed of light, meaning that anything with mass cannot even reach the speed of light, much less exceed it. That doesn't even get into relativistic time dialation, which increases exponentially the closer to C you get, which logically would mean that at C time would effectively stop for you, and if you exceeded C that time would begin to flow backwards. So barring something like Star Trek's subspace, I'd say FTL is pretty much impossible.

Ok, a few quick things:

1. By our laws of physics, Black Holes cannot exist. Clearly they do. Light has also been sped up and other objects have been observed moving faster than light. Scientists are just so in love with the idea that they refuse to let it go.

2. Weight increasing as you increase in speed is more to do with the gravitational pull and density of objects than speed itself. In space, when the pull of gravity is minimal, you could easily enter FTL speeds without crushing yourself as your, and your ships, weight is negligible. However, if you were, say, a planet, then yes, you'd compress into a Neutron Star.

3. Wormholes have also been proven to exist. No-one knows where they go and the only observable ones are only a few microns wide, but if theory stands up to it, Wormholes would allow FTL travel.

4. The idea of regular Alien Visitations does not seem so preposterous. The evidence, all be it widely unregarded, and constant eyewitness accounts, videos, etc. All seem more or less disregarded. The Governments of the world have repeatedly scrambled to try and cover up information regarding UFO's (Most recently Britain, whose military and scientific branches are scrambling to prevent the information from becoming Public Domain), which, whether involving aliens or not, smacks of high secrecy. Now if they said "We're testing new secret planes", as they have before, this would be less suspicious, but as they have not said something they have had no problem with saying before, it just seems incredibly odd...

1) Speaking as a physics major, that level of stupidity is just plain offensive.

First, I don't know where you got the idea that black holes arn't possible under the laws of physics, but they are. If you have a few hours, I could break down the math for you, General Relativity predicts them.

Second, scientists have speed up light in a material. You know how light slows down when you shine it through glass? What they've managed to do it make it so light goes at it's normal speed in glass, that's all. The speed of light in space is a universal constant that cannot be exceeded.

2) Wrong. Absolutly wrong. Offesnvily, mind-numbingly wrong. Gravity has absolutly nothing to do with being unable to exceed the speed of light. As you approach the speed of light, the amount of energy required to increase your speed approaches infinity. You would need more energy then exists in the universe to reach lightspeed.

3) True, and also totally irrelevent.

4) Appeal to Conspriacy, it's a logical fallacy. "I would have proof, but there's a massive conspiracy to hide it." Isn't proof, because you can really say that about anything you want. Sorry, but you need a better argument then that.

a photon always has a pairing, from what I've always seen it's north with negative which then oscilates to a pairing of south with positive. most 2d graphs of light show light's wavelengths only going up and down, a 3d one however show both magnetic and electronic properties, usually with north and south being up and down and positive and negative being left and right, with one wave going up and down and the other going left and right and both waves in perfect sync with each other.

my question is if any kind of light occurs with different parings, say north with positive and south with negative. mostly just the idea of "if we made this kind of light and shined it on something, what would happen?" that's all inverse light really is, just with a different pairing up of electronic and magnetic energy.

I know every element has some frequencies it gives off when heated up or energized and also absorbs when it's cooled, I suspect that if anything were to happen it would be with the inverse light at a frequency that matches the frequency of normal light that is given off from matter that is energized, and where that same matter is the matter that the light hits.

the other problem is that I don't even know where to begin to do the experiment myself nor to find if anyone has done it alraedy.

I've dreamed, guessed, hypothesized, but I've never found out if anybody actually tried the experiment before. it's driving me nuts not knowing if I'm just dreaming something that's already proven to not work or not exist.

did that make any sense?

No. What your describing would require a fundamental change in the way the universe works. That's like saying "I want a particle that has negative mass" or "What would matter that violates conservation of energy be like?" I can't tell you, because if it exists, the laws of physics have gone out the window.

[Axelgear]

1) Speaking as a physics major, that level of stupidity is just plain offensive.

First, I don't know where you got the idea that black holes arn't possible under the laws of physics, but they are. If you have a few hours, I could break down the math for you, General Relativity predicts them.

Second, scientists have speed up light in a material. You know how light slows down when you shine it through glass? What they've managed to do it make it so light goes at it's normal speed in glass, that's all. The speed of light in space is a universal constant that cannot be exceeded.

2) Wrong. Absolutly wrong. Offesnvily, mind-numbingly wrong. Gravity has absolutly nothing to do with being unable to exceed the speed of light. As you approach the speed of light, the amount of energy required to increase your speed approaches infinity. You would need more energy then exists in the universe to reach lightspeed.

3) True, and also totally irrelevent.

4) Appeal to Conspriacy, it's a logical fallacy. "I would have proof, but there's a massive conspiracy to hide it." Isn't proof, because you can really say that about anything you want. Sorry, but you need a better argument then that.

1. If the speed of light is a universal constant, then Black Holes must have a weight limit. However, if they keep absorbing matter, they will inevitablysurpass this limit. Explain. As to light speeding up in a material, theory states lights speed can NEVER be exceeded. Ever. Anywhere. Yet if it is possible within a meterial, it is likely to be possible elsewhere, is it not? Though it is a simple matter of stating that of course elsewhere light will not be sped up; it's not going to enter the proper materials under the right circumstances. It's like a ball on a flat ledge over a hill; the potential for speed is there but it won't move until a force is enacted upon it.

2. Then explain a lovely little Quasar called 3C 273. Observed at a distance of about 660 Mpc's, the two "blobs" that compose it moved apart about 0.002" in 3 years. Calculating this distance shows that they moved about 10 times the speed of light over that time.

3. Not entirely. It just means that FTL is possible simply by not moving faster than light, so even FTL-as-the-limit theorists can agree on such things.

4. Not so much lack of evidence. There is evidence but it's majorly ignored by the scientific community and remains uninvestigated. As to the conspiracy theory, Conspiracies are usually pointed out by an intent to cover up evidence more than evidence itself. I agree, there is little proof to its existance, (Except the existance of government documents that support their existance, repeated denials of the Freedom of Information Act concerning the existance of Aliens, government officials and military officers who request, but are denied, freedom from their Confidentiality agreements to talk on the subject, etc.) but still....