What would the Racconans do?

RHJunior · Post by **RHJunior** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:51 pm

MikeVanPelt wrote:
But Jesus himself said there's a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that will never be forgiven, in this world or the next.

That would be the rejection of salvation.

Axelgear · Post by **Axelgear** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:12 pm

Hey, I got one right!... Kinda...

StrangeWulf13 · Post by **StrangeWulf13** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:35 pm

On the matter of those born into the Westboro cult... well, that's where the "sins of the fathers" thing comes in, doesn't it?

Sad to think about it, but it's possible those sickos are condemning their children to hell simply by teaching them to hate.

Of such is born the worst of fools, for they will hate without reason. I pray some of them find a way out, or that God strikes the whole lot with infertility!

Deckard Canine · Post by **Deckard Canine** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:02 pm

RHJunior wrote:
MikeVanPelt wrote:
But Jesus himself said there's a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that will never be forgiven, in this world or the next.
That would be the rejection of salvation.

According to the RCC, at least, there's more to it than that. For most forms of rejecting God, you may have the opportunity to repent. But a direct blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will cause Him to leave you, and thus you will lack the divine help to return to the fold. I suppose that if someone gave such blasphemy in my presence, I would sadly regard him as a dead man walking.

Anyway, I don't think anyone's answered the question in this thread's title. The precise answer might depend whether the Racconans encountered the church among fellow Racconans or among uninvited humans. Either way, I'm sure very few would approve.

Tom Mazanec · Post by **Tom Mazanec** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:23 am

I was taught that it was basically calling the Holy Spirit Satan. That is, believing that the works of the Spirit are works of the Devil. So you cannot "see" that the promptings of the Holy Spirit are from God, you think they are demonic. So you can never give in to them.
I think that may have been a speculation, though. This one is a tough verse.

Shyal_malkes · Post by **Shyal_malkes** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:31 am

I have heard that it was a tad harder then that. I thought it was more where you KNEW the truth about God, his son, and the Holy Ghost, and yet turned away and actively rejected and even tried to fight against them.

also, I do not believe that final judgement occurrs right after death. I believe that all who have not had the chance to hear the truth will be able to hear it. I believe that if anything, God is fair and will give all of his children the chance to know him. thus, if they end up in heaven or not rests partly on their own shoulders as far as whether they believed the truth when they heard it or not.

Tom Mazanec · Post by **Tom Mazanec** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:42 am

The RCC believes in Baptism by Desire...that is, if you TRY to find the Truth and do not find it due to circumstances beyond your control, you will be considered a de facto (if not de jure) Christian and can die in a State of Grace.
It is harder and you will not have as much Beatific Vision as you would if you had the Grace of Mother Church, however.

The JAM · Post by **The JAM** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:59 am

Both Tom and Shyal are more or less correct. The only mention of that type of blasphemy was directed at the Pharisim, when they saw, in front of them, a demon being cast out, and they attributed the miracle to be the work of the devil. When that happens, the person is sadly and finally unrepentant, and from then on is completely devoid of any desire to do good. Let me check my notes and I'll get back to you tonight.

Tom Mazanec · Post by **Tom Mazanec** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:17 am

I asked a priest once and he said it was "sinning unto death" ie dying in a state of mortal sin. Seems weird that it would be phrased "in this world or the next" then. I will try to remember to ask my new priest about it soon.

Axelgear · Post by **Axelgear** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:24 pm

Funnily enough, that's a topic in Hamlet. King Hamlet dies (He's murdered for you non-Thespians) without having confessed or having been given the last rites, and hence suffers Purgation before going onto Heaven.

Then again, there's the big question of whether the Ghost of Hamlet is him or not. After all, wouldn't asking his son to kill someone only condemn him to more time in Purgatory?

TMLutas · Post by **TMLutas** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:27 am

Axelgear wrote:Funnily enough, that's a topic in Hamlet. King Hamlet dies (He's murdered for you non-Thespians) without having confessed or having been given the last rites, and hence suffers Purgation before going onto Heaven.

Then again, there's the big question of whether the Ghost of Hamlet is him or not. After all, wouldn't asking his son to kill someone only condemn him to more time in Purgatory?

Actually, I think it would depend on the motivation of the request. For revenge, sure, but a poisoner is dangerous to those around him and that would include the dead king's family. Instructing his son to remove the danger would not be a sin and the nature of royal power would make a denunciation problematic. After all, where would Hamlet's proof be?

Axelgear · Post by **Axelgear** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:46 am

True, Claudius was not a nice man, but Hamlet's methodology to it is definitely not righteous. When he sees Claudius praying, he decides not to kill him to try and ensure damnation for his soul. Whether Claudius killed his father or not, it is definitely not the Christian thing to do to try and damn someone.

Deckard Canine · Post by **Deckard Canine** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:40 am

Also note that Hamlets Jr. and Sr. considered Claudius incestuous and adulterous for marrying his former sister-in-law. To them, his sin was ongoing. I'm not sure if incest was punishable by death in those days, but adultery surely was.

The JAM · Post by **The JAM** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:15 pm

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.

Ah, here they are:

BLASPHEMY - [Matthew 12] By casting out demons Yeshua gave clear evidence to all willing hearers that the kingdom [authority] of God had come. By ascribing the action of the Spirit of God to demonic power, the Pharisim were guilty of deliberate rejection of the saving power of God.
Why is such a sin against the Spirit unpardonable? The Holy Spirit is the divine agent in revealing the truth of God which alone can save. The essence of saving truth is that Yeshua is the Savior from sin. Forgiveness is offered to all who acknowledge their sin and turn from it to Him. In blaspheming the Holy Spirit, a dreadful climax of hardness is reached whereby the sinner is totally and finally impenitent [Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10]. It is permanent unbelief combined with implacable and malicious hatred of the only means of forgiveness. Indeed...blasphemy against the Holy Spirit involves the loss of all sense of sin...]

From The Topical Chain Study Bible.

¡Zacatepóngolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]