So what's the fascination with Manga/Anime?

[Taiwanimation]

I'm Asian, as are a number of artists... not everyone is attracted to manga/anime because of the "holy shit, this anime stuff is so much better than Scooby Doo! I didn't know this stuff existed!" situation... for many, that was our first introduction to comics and animation, and the natural point to start from.

[Black Sparrow]

People like what they like.

Take potatoes. Everyone in my family loves potatoes, but I don't. I don't understand it, so I don't really try.

Same with manga. I like manga, because I think it's pretty. But some people find the art awkward. I like the classic manga story style, whereas some people find the style boring or lacking any sense whatsoever.

It's just a matter of taste.

[Rcmonroe]

I've often heard North American comic fans complain that all anime/manga looks alike... since moving to Korea, I've heard many Asian comic fans complain that all North American comics/cartoons look alike. I think it's largely a matter of perception. When you're used to a certain style, you can appreciate the differences between artists working in that style. When confronted by a new style, what you notice first is the similarity between the artists. I know you didn't actually say that all manga looks alike, but your quote brought that to mind, so I thought I'd comment on it.

Yeah, I notice a lot of differences in the individual artists' styles, so I wasn't trying to say they all look alike. Still, even with the discernible differences, every manga comic I've ever seen is instantly recognizable as such. There seem to be more similarities than differences.

You can point to the independant/underground cartoonists to show a great variety in American comics, but we have independant/underground cartoonists over here too.

I've never seen any of them. I'd sure like to.

I personally don't understand why this question comes up. Nothing inherently wrong with a style. Yeah, a lot of manga sucks, but a lot of a lot of things suck. Were all derivative of something, but we do our best to make something original out of the things the influence us. Manga authors who don't understand this often get pidgeonholed for failing to elevate past their genre. Happens with fantasy, sci-fi, real life and every other genre too. Whatever. If it's good, it's good. If you don't wanna deal with manga, fine, don't. But people have just as much reason to look at it as another gamer comic.

Well, yeah, but that's scraping the bottom of the barrel, innit? No, seriously, I agree: there's nothing inherently wrong with a style. Anime/Manga would not have become popular if there wasn't anything good about it. It's pretty, and the best technicians of the style do do some beautiful work. I like the style. I just wish I didn't have to see it in 75% of the webcomics I run across.

[McDuffies]

You can point to the independant/underground cartoonists to show a great variety in American comics, but we have independant/underground cartoonists over here too.

I've never seen any of them. I'd sure like to.

Not even Spiegleman's "Mouse"? Or Daniel Cloves? Or Jim Woodring?

I sometimes see reading comics as a sort of natural selection. Those who reach for the first thing they see on shelf or advertised somewhere, eventually either adapt to them or go away with depressing conviction that nothing good in comics is produced todays.
Those others who put more effort in finding the good read, are often surprised by variety and depth of independent production.
There are so many people who satisfy with the medioctiry because they honestly think that there's nothing better.

[Rcmonroe]

You can point to the independant/underground cartoonists to show a great variety in American comics, but we have independant/underground cartoonists over here too.

I've never seen any of them. I'd sure like to.

Not even Spiegleman's "Mouse"? Or Daniel Cloves? Or Jim Woodring?

No, I was responding to ataraxia's comment about Korean independents. I'm quite familiar with their American counterparts. By the way, it's "Maus." Uh, and "Clowes."

[McDuffies]

Ooh. I didn't read the whole thing.

[Rcmonroe]

Ooh. I didn't read the whole thing.

I figured as much. I could have phrased the original response better to avoid the misunderstanding, but then we'd be missing out on this scintillating exchange.

[Tynan]

HENTAI!

[McDuffies]

That's not what "scintilating" means, Tynan.

[Rcmonroe]

*checks dictionary*

Close enough.

[Swikan]

I think Taiwanimation had a good point about imitating the first style that you are exposed to/attracted to first. I don't think the appeal of Manga can really be explained beyond preference. Since Manga became more mainstream here in the states, you see more American artists drawing in that style. Maybe it's a generational thing... you know, because I'm old, I prefer techno-pop and I don't understand the attraction of rap/hip-hop.

I have a question: Is this specifically a "manga" style thing, I have seen it in my son's manga comics and in animated cartoons. The characters are drawn so beautifully and skillfully, but then in some panels/scenes, they are all cartoony with mushrooms and sweat drops and stuff all around them.. with huge mouths. I find it very jarring when reading/viewing.

You know what we ought to do? Have those of us that are non-manga webtoonists, draw a manga character and post it in a thread. I know I'd like to give it a try. (Those of you that ARE manga artists can post pics to show us how it's done... and give us tips.)

[The Neko]

I think the "manga boom" came about because of how new it is; people aren't as painfully aware of the cliches, nor do they have the same cultural context as the people who are reading/viewing it in Japan. Something that sounds really corny to the Japanese can be "genius" to Americans.

The only problem I have with americans who make "manga" is because Manga is defined by nationality and cultural background, not style per se. But we have to succumb to popular usage no matter how much we wish otherwise. Also, most of the people who try to draw in that style can't draw for beans to begin with and use it as some sort of mask for their poor skills. Unfortunately, by trying to imitate, they open up the door to comparisions with the source material, which makes them look even worse than if they tried to do something on their own; they're trying to be something specific and failing miserably.

[Swikan]

The Neko: You are right, but that goes both ways. (My husband often has contact with his Japanese counterparts at work. The things they think are "genius" we think are corny, too! )

Could you clarify "Manga is defined by nationality and cultural background" rather than style?

[MixedMyth]

I think the theory that anime and manga have more variety in them does have some validity to it. This is lest true with manga vs comics. There it's mostly a difference of attention and ammount...the diverse western comics don't often get much attention, and they ARE a much smaller market. However, with animation I would stick to my guns and say that you still don't find very much genre variety, particularly in American animation. Or variety in target audience, for that matter. There are adult cartoons, but they're still at the stage where it's all novel to be for adults...so they often rely on that as their main attraction rather than the quality of the content. And you don't find that much in between (though, yes, there are of course some). But I think the genre thing is a larger limitation at this point.

[Des]

Swikan: Manga in Japanese simply means the same thing as Comic in English. So why differentiate manga and comics if we're speaking English. Would a Japanese person, living in Japan, drawing in an American comic book style say "Watashi wa Comic kakimasu!" (this is probably VERY bad Japanese... its been years!) like some Americans say "I'm writing a Manga!" I don't know for sure, but it just sounds kinda silly to me. Manga is a noun and doesn't pretain to any particular style of comic, it just means comic. In fact, even when refering to a Superman comic in Japan, they call it a manga.

Anyway...

I think that Japanese cartoons come off very non-threatening to budding artists. The style is simple, clean, fun and just begs for you to come draw it. I grew up on Disney cartoons, but never once did I want to DRAW it. When I saw Sailor Moon I wanted to draw it... maybe its just because Japanese anime comes with such a fan following with fan art that it makes one feel like THEY can do it to. Not sure exacally what it is, but it seems an easy step into art, and that's why I feel so many people start off in this style.

The problem with this tho is that MANY artists start off by imitating the art they want to produce. And I'm not saying copying is bad (as long as you own up to it) but there is a BIG difference between learning by imitating what you actually see, learning by imitating realistic porportioned figures with realistically porportioned faces, and learning by imitating totally out of wack, yet astheticly pleasing porportions. It easier, yes, but I feel a lot of "anime" artists develope a lot slower, if at all sometimes. I've seen some look at their art and say "This anatomy is not right. I think I'll study anatomy" and others who look and say "Her legs are a mile long with no knees! YAAAAY!"

[The Neko]

Swikan: Manga in Japanese simply means the same thing as Comic in English. So why differentiate manga and comics if we're speaking English. Would a Japanese person, living in Japan, drawing in an American comic book style say "Watashi wa Comic kakimasu!" (this is probably VERY bad Japanese... its been years!) like some Americans say "I'm writing a Manga!" I don't know for sure, but it just sounds kinda silly to me. Manga is a noun and doesn't pretain to any particular style of comic, it just means comic. In fact, even when refering to a Superman comic in Japan, they call it a manga.

Some people have started using the word manga and "komiku" either interchangeably or with different cultural contexts. But in general, "manga" is just comics. A more accurate word would saying that you're drawing in the Japanese style.

I just find it really humorous that a lot of people view Japan as some sort of comics haven, as if everything they produce is gold. When I worked at DC/CMX, I had to read so many awful comics that you'd want to bomb Japan until it's a glass crater.

[Des]

I remember when some time ago one of the art gallery sites I was on (Side 7 maybe? I forget) made a big stink about classifing art as "Anime". They said they would only allow it if it was fanart of an anime character. Anime styled art had to be filed under the appropiate tag of "people" or "fantasy" or whatever. People got all mad about it, arguing the ENGLISH meaning of "anime" as meaning "japanese animation style". I thought it was sorta funny.

I just find it really humorous that a lot of people view Japan as some sort of comics haven, as if everything they produce is gold. When I worked at DC/CMX, I had to read so many awful comics that you'd want to bomb Japan until it's a glass crater.

I think people just have that view because of the number of comics that get released in Japan and the popularity of it there. Here in America I think comics get this stigma of "geeks only" even if some of the comics here cover very non-geek topics. But a social, popular, valley girl here in America would probably have never even touched a comic book, where her Japanese equivilant probably has a favorite title and maybe even a cute handbag featuring that comic's mascot. So to those of us that had never seen that phenomenon (omg its late, I'm not even trying to spell anymore) in America, who lovelovelove comics, see Japan as some sort of holy land for comics.

[The Neko]

Well, since Japan is such a commuter culture, comics became really popular as something for young people to read on their hours on the train to and from school every day. The comics industry there has been having trouble these days because mobile phones and portable video games have been eating up that market.

I'd still say that the Japanese view of people who are obsessed with comics is the same as it is here, particularly after "The Otaku Murders". In fact, there have been quite a few reports claiming that children who read too many comics are becoming culturally illiterate and getting lower marks in school. But I often find deluded people here in the US that believe their fannishness will somehow be viewed as endearing by the average Japanese person.

[Des]

But I often find deluded people here in the US that believe their fannishness will somehow be viewed as endearing by the average Japanese person.

Haha! My favorite are the people who proudly call themselves "Otaku" and don't even know it has a negative connotation.
And that's why anime conventions are so terrifying! Sooo many crazies but sooo much merch and panels with really talented people!

[The Neko]

But I often find deluded people here in the US that believe their fannishness will somehow be viewed as endearing by the average Japanese person.

Haha! My favorite are the people who proudly call themselves "Otaku" and don't even know it has a negative connotation.

Oh exactly! If they are the big Japan-experts they fancy themselves to be, they'd probably know what the word means in the modern Japanese context.