Military Enlistment Processing Command(MEPC) is insane.

[Tellner]

Nope. It's a nice idea in theory. But given human nature anything that makes civil rights a privilege to be granted at the whim of the government is a sure recipe for tyranny.

Did you even read the damn book?

They all had the full rights and priviles of citizens, the only thing they had to earn was their franchise, which they did through service to their nation.

I probably read it before you were born. If you recall, Rico's father talked about the rights that a "taxpayer" had, not a citizen. When you don't have the right to choose your leaders or representatives you aren't a citizen. You're a serf.

Bob Heinlein was a really good writer who had some good ideas and some bad ones. This one is emotionally attractive, but childishly easy to corrupt and turn into a tool for institutionalized oppression. And yes, I do believe that prejudice, clannishness and belief in the superiority of one's own group are pretty near universal human traits. They can be treated. They can be transcended. But the current runs deep. Anything that caters to it, such as making political rights arbitrarily doled out by those in power, will be abused.

[Swordsman3003]

It is something ingrained in a tribal society.

[Jackalope]

xenophobia is something more likely hardwired into all the great apes (and that includes us). Chimpanzees, our closest cousins, certainly practice warfare and systematic murder based on groups. Actually taking university level classes on physical anthropology was an eye-opener. There are a lot of lies that touchy-feelie sorts like to tell about humans being the only species that commits various bad/evil behaviors--and predjudice and murder are among them.

[Tellner]

About the only exceptions are the bonobos. But they take "Make love, not war" very seriously.

[Jackalope]

Actually, the bonobos aren't quite as lovey-dovey as some books make them out to be, either. A lot of anthropologists tried to write things with all our traits divided up so it sounded like bonobos=good, chimps=bad. It's more that chimps are more polygynous (not polygamous) than either bonobos or humans are. That means there's more male-male agression going on. But the bonobos certainly have violence as well, there's just not quite as much dominance-driven behavior in their societies.

I'm trying to remember who I've read recently on primate behavior who brought up the myths about bonobos, but my brain is refusing to spit out either an author or a book title right now. Hate that.

[Tellner]

I vaguely remember the studies you are talking about. The bonobos aren't "good" any more than chimps are "bad". They do, however, substitute sex for aggression more than any other species of primate so far recorded.

[Nithos]

I vaguely remember the studies you are talking about. The bonobos aren't "good" any more than chimps are "bad". They do, however, substitute sex for aggression more than any other species of primate so far recorded.

They substitute sex for aggression withen the group, yeah. I don't think they're replacing wars with orgies, just domestic squabbles.

I found my intrest in Heinlein's social ideas declined perportionally to my study of anthropology, though I still love his writing. I think Maxillary hit the key with

So hating an artificial grouping is natural?

It's not so much the hating part that's natural, it's the creation of artifical groups and drawing unreasonable conclusions. Our brains have a tendancy toward some common logical fallacies because of our strong reliance on pattern recognition, not logic, in our most basic thought levels. Logic, rational thought, and science are taught in school, no one's born truely rational, but finding patterns and grouping things (often irrationally and 'artifically') is a basic brain function we're born with (or at least develop early enough that it's not a major educational goal; I don't exactly know enough about brain development to pinpoint when this happens). Thus my original post - bigotry is easily drummed up in any populace given the right conditions, so a system where the basic state is of being is disenfranchised is likely to lead to an oligarchy, plutacracy, aristocracy, fascism, or whatever else you want to label entrenched power in the hands of the few over the disenfranchised masses.

[Major Maxillary]

I think we sould make a clear distinction between racism and xenophobia.

xenophobia is when you're wary, or to an extent afraid, of outsiders.

Racism is when you're wary/afraid of, or outright hate people of a certain race even if those individuals are withing your group.

the former can be a crucial tool for survival when you know when to turn it on or off, the latter only serves to hold society back.



Honor's probably going to violently fist me up the ass over this, but I don't really think awarding service to your country with franchise could be considdered arbitrary. especially not when all rights are guarenteed regardless of political status. Yes such a simplistic government could and in all likelyhood would be corupted by powerhungry fucks, but with a little work it might be doable, and hey I'll try just about anything once.

[Ce6]

I liked one of Heinlein's other ideas (from <i>For Us The Living</i>) regarding democracy and raising the army for war.
Basically, the decision to go to war is put to popular vote by the people. Those who vote yes are given their conscription papers and told where to report the next morning for training if the war is approved.

I won't go into the logistics of such a plan, not being a military man myself and this merely being a blurb from a science fiction book, but I do like how the responsibility to wage the war is placed directly on those who want it to happen.

And on a humorous note: here's what happens when military history meets the internets.

[Tellner]

Having raised the enlistment age, "stop-lossed" people from leaving when their hitch is up and lowering educational requirements the military is now granting lots of waivers to people with criminal records that would otherwise have prevented them from serving. Somewhere there's a barrel with a sign on the bottom that says "Scrape Here".

[Update: It looks like the Army issued waivers to a record 17% of enlistees last year.]

[GreenAdder]

All I know is that I've heard from several people that, in the military, injuries among men and pregnancies among women always seem to spike right before a deployment.

[Major Maxillary]

All I know is that I've heard from several people that, in the military, injuries among men and pregnancies among women always seem to spike right before a deployment.

Cowards.