The Philosophy Thread (Take Two)

[Ciararavenblaze]

I'll kick it off with a quote.

The whole idea about religion is it's an institution that makes you feel like a group, but actually fosters separateness and hierarchy. So that if you're not part of this, then you don't have anything. America does that. British football does that. Being an Italian male. Being Islamic. So many people have a belief. Almost every culture, every "group" has a way it wants to perceive things. And when I write songs, the Christians feel that because I'm not speaking the way they would like me to, that I don't believe in God, that I'm not part of the Christian formula. But being a minister's daughter, I know it very well. If you're brought up with parents who are painters, you probably see everything in light and shade. I can smell a rat real quick when someone tries to tell me their way is the way. And see, I don't think my way is the way for everybody. -- Tori Amos, Rochester Democrat & Chronicle - August 28, 1996

(bold emphasis is mine.)

[Ruby Falls]

That is quite true. We all don't believe in the same things. So, what do you guys think about religions, spirituality, etc.? (For lack of a better and less broad thing to say.)

[Ciararavenblaze]

personally, I think that religion is not the same as spirituality.

you can be the most devout Christian (Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, whatever) in the world and never set foot inside a church... and you can also be the most hypocritical "Christian" ever, and go to every single event that happens at church that there is.

I think that applies to every religious belief that exists--including atheism, Buddhism, Islam, paganism, etc.

believing in God and what he can do and what he is and how he factors into your life is, to me, far more important than making sure you go to church every Sunday. I haven't been to church in years, but I feel as close to God as I ever did.

but then again, I'm not what you call a traditional Christian--outside of believing the basics (like the ten commandments and the golden rule), and believing that Jesus did die for our sins (whether or not he was God's son, and whether or not he was dying for our sins literally as opposed to symbolically)... I pretty much shove the rest of it aside and have my own philosophies about spirituality.

I also have some Pagan influences, I have some Buddhist influences, and so on. I've pretty much read over (not enough tho) every religion that I know of (Satanism included--I don't discriminate against ANY religion), agreed with some of it, disagreed with some of it, and have walked away from all of that, keeping what I liked, and trying my best to apply that to my life.

you can blame this site (http://www.religioustolerance.org) for starting that. I was raised as a Christian (primarily Baptist) for all of my life, but around 2003, I'd discovered that site out of a curiosity of Druidism, and wound up reading about EVERY SINGLE RELIGION listed there... long story short, that turned my world completely upside down, as I was feeling rather... empty, spiritually speaking. I sought the advice of an old friend who was more or less something of a new-age type of woman (and a very nice one at that!), and she pointed me to the Conversations With God books by Neale Donald Walsch. that made everything hurt less.

I also asked a couple of my Pagan friends if I could attend some rituals with them--they were happy to oblige, and that was much more fun to me than church for a while, and it helped me out because it gave me a chance to experience something other than "praise Jeeeeeesus!" hymns, bible-thumpers who believe that the world was made in seven literal twenty-four-hour days and shouting preachers.

I'm probably best described as an agnostic, but I don't think that's accurate, either.

[Ruby Falls]

Church doesn't necessarily equal close to God. I know people that go to mass every week, but only because their parents make them. They pull away from God because they see Him as something mandatory and boring. It breaks my heart. There are so many ways to love God. You can sing, dance, paint, draw, pray, read, write, teach...

I am Catholic. I have a great respect and interest for other religions. When I was in fifth grade I developed a great interest for Greek and Roman mythology. Around that time I discovered that not all Christians were the same as me. Some of them were Baptists, Lutherans, Reformed, etc. That was also when I discovered that Catholicism is not well-liked in my region of Michigan. My mom is a Flint native and my dad is Pennsylvania German. I come from a big German-Irish-Italian Catholic family. Not many people do around here. I'm surrounded by Dutch Protostant Reformed folks. Some of them are very nice, but some of them are very close-minded when it comes to my being Catholic. I don't worship Mary, I don't put saints before God, and I've never been raped by a priest.

Apart from the "worshipping Mary" thing, my least-favorite rumors about Catholics are anything that have to do with gay people. I hate being told that I personally am close-minded about gay people. Let's clear some things up. Most Catholics don't believe in birth control. That is because most Catholics believe that whenever somebody has sex they create life. When the sperm and egg meet they have created life. Using birth control prevents that life from coming to being. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s&feature=related The sperm song from The Meaning of Life makes some great points. Monty Python always knew what they were making fun of. When gay partners have sex there is no chance of creating life. As a result the sperm or egg doesn't really have anything to do. Catholic anti-gay feelings grow from the same roots as anti-birth-control feelings. Simple as that. It's the sex that most people are against, not the love. I happen to know and love a lot of gay and bisexual people.

Other people's opinions on gay people?

[Ciararavenblaze]

my opinion on gay and bisexual folks: the more love you can give and have, the better.

and by that, I don't mean "sleep with everybody you can convince to sleep with you", I mean LOVE. actual LOVE. the stuff that involves more than (but does include) sexual attraction.

and if gay people aren't allowed to love because they happen to love someone of the same gender, then why should straight people be allowed to love?

I guess it sums up to "equality for everybody, everywhere, regardless of age, race, religion, gender, sexuality, etc."

what's your opinion on interracial relationships, going on this thread?

and what's your opinion on there being more than a four or five year age gap between the people involved in a relationship?

(my boyfriend is black, and he turned 36 today. I'm white and I'll be 27 in October.)

[Ruby Falls]

LOVE!

Gay people don't choose to be gay. God doesn't make mistakes.

Race isn't as big of a deal as many people make it out to be. I've had friends of all sorts of ethnicities.

The age gap really depends on what stage of your life you're in. I don't think that a seventh-grader and high school junior should date, but a 20 year old and 24 year old relationship is acceptable.

Middle-school kids shouldn't date at all, if you ask me. They can't drive, really shouldn't be having sex, and really aren't that mature.

I don't know if I'm the best person to answer the age question. I've never been in any sort of relationship. *mildly upset*

[Ciararavenblaze]

well, would you be okay with dating a guy who was more than five years older or younger than you are?

I'm certainly okay with it, myself. (or else I wouldn't be Gerald's girlfriend.)

Gay people don't choose to be gay. God doesn't make mistakes.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. to me, it's not any different than choosing to be male or female. or black, Asian, white, Indian, etc. or... being in the family that you're in. you can't choose and pick any of that. and one good friend of mine who is gay told me, "if I had been able to choose, I would NOT have chosen to be gay."

[Ruby Falls]

I was talking to a few friends today, all heterosexual. Somehow we got onto the topic of homosexuality. One of the guys was almost proud to call himself a homophobe, which made me sick. He's a very self-righteous Reformed Christian. Oh wait, "Christian" is a "label". He'd rather be called a "follower of Christ". Doesn't that mean the same thing?? Anyhow, the other guy admitted to being homophobic and the other three of us got really offended. At least the second guy felt some shame in being prejuidce. I can't stand it. Why would you want to pick a sexuality that few people take the time to understand?

I don't consider it bad to date somebody 5+ years my junior or senior. Deep down it depends on the person.

[Ciararavenblaze]

I saw a thread of comments on an article about Jenna Bush joking with Ellen Degeneres about "yeah, you can use our ranch to get married!" and a lot of them (it was a Texas-based site that the article was from) were very homophobic in the so-called name of God.

made me fed up, I tell ya.

I don't think my gay friends chose to be gay any more than I chose to be hearing impaired.

and by the way, a good question to ask your "follower of Christ" friend would be, "so when did you decide to be straight instead of gay or bi?"

[Ruby Falls]

He's such a stupid hypocrite. In his world it's totally fine to "act gay" with your friends or siblings, but if you are gay...Yeah, he'll beat you up and condemn you. Idiot.

Do you think that trees can feel pain?

[Ciararavenblaze]

I think that ALL living things feel pain, whether they're plants, animals or fungi, personally.

do you believe that humans are the only beings to have souls?

[Ruby Falls]

I agree. That only makes me feel worse about how much paper I use on a regular basis.

I believe that animals have souls. They have so much character and love in them that they ought to have souls! God loves all of His creations. I'm not sure where they go when they die, but I think that God gives them some eternal reward for being good animals.

[Ciararavenblaze]

makes sense to me.

I'm also of the belief that God is not what we depict him to be--PARTICULARLY not the neurotic, jealous, selfish and trigger-happy ("oops, you stepped on the grass!" *smite* oops, you ate something on the wrong day! *SMITE!* hee hee!") God that I've been taught to believe in.

all that being said, I'm not against different religions keeping up with different traditions. like no pork for the Jewish folks, and Lent for Catholics, etc.

[Garneta]

Poking in here for a bit. Erm...damn, it's pretty late; I should've already been in bed, so I'm probably gonna end up forgetting half my post before I make it or saying something completely weird. Starting off, I suppose I won't really get into any actual 'beliefs' (thoughts, whatever) but rather an overview of what's behind them.

Really, who am I to say that I am or am not anything, religiously? The basic fact is that people look to religion for answers. They believe wholeheartedly in something as fact so as not to be freaking petrified of death/remembrance/their own mistakes/faults/etc etc etc. If that helps, then hell yeah...more power to them (as long as they aren't the 'holier-than-though' type that look down their noses just because someone might actually believe something that's only slightly different than what they do)! They can form answers to) the great questions of life, the universe, and everything that way. Why are we here, how were things started, etc etc...

Personally though, thinking of some of those questions...I have some thoughts, but really...Shit, who the hell knows?! How did the universe start? Eh...fuck if I know. I wasn't there to see it! Do all-powerful beings (i.e. the god/gods and goddesses of all the cultures throughout history) actually exist? I don't know...I've never met them! And as I can't prove/disprove anything on the basis of my own feelings/thoughts on the subjects, I'm certainly not gonna try and get anyone else converted to my way of thinking about it! I try to be open to new ideas (emphasis on 'try' there, because there are things that I probably just won't ever be swayed on).

Wow...yeah, that's as far as I'll go for tonight. It's nearly 1:30; I should've been in bed an hour ago, and tomorrow's gonna be a long day. I'll get into more thoughts (on different subjects too, not just spiritualish stuff) later on.

[Ciararavenblaze]

How did the universe start? Eh...fuck if I know. I wasn't there to see it! Do all-powerful beings (i.e. the god/gods and goddesses of all the cultures throughout history) actually exist? I don't know...I've never met them!

I think you're definitely onto something with this stance, Kat. people who insist that they know how the universe started, and whether gods or goddesses (etc) exist... well... not even I know, so how could anybody else know, short of actually seeing it (or meeting the god/goddess in question)?

and even then, others might be quick to dismiss seeing whatever, or meeting whoever to be a hallucination. just because they haven't met or seen whatever it is.

[Ruby Falls]

They know because the Bible is literal, word-for-word accurate, and was written by God Himself. But seriously, folks...

I don't know what happened at the beginning of the universe. I picture something between the Big Bang and Genesis. It may have to do with the beliefs I was raised with, but regardless I am at an age where I can make up my mind on what I believe. Any holy document was written by a human. There are bound to be errors, miscalculations, mistranslations, and confusing bits. That's how humans are.

I was puzzling about reincarnation yesterday and wonder if I can get any feedback. In the Hindu religion, if you are a good person you can become a priest or cow in your next life. If you're a bad person you can go to the bottom of the caste system or become a bug. How does your bug form determine what form you take next? Do you behave like a good bug or a good person? Do you suck blood, breed like crazy, and get slapped to death or do you live solitary and die without bothering anybody? Are you stuck being a bug forever? Reincarnation confuses me. There seems to be too many plotholes. Maybe I just don't know much about it.

[Ciararavenblaze]

honestly, I REALLY don't get it either.

that said, I do believe in reincarnation. but what I believe is that we simply die, go back to Heaven (where the "Great Big Soul Pool" is), chill for however long we wanna chill, mix and mingle with other souls and come down later as a new, different soul.

[Garneta]

You know what I was musing about yesterday on the long drive down to Arkansas? Time. What the hell IS time, really? Is it linear? Circular? Wavy? Does it really speed up and slow down like it seems to? Does it actually even exist? Does it go hand-in-hand with history/future? Or do THEY exist? What if they too are circular, and just keep on repeating? Lotsa stuff like that, until my brain was about to explode (it didn't help any that I felt drugged from my cold, even though I was sober at the time).

[Ciararavenblaze]

sometimes being not-sober can make you think about things like that, Kat.

personally, I don't believe that time is anything but a man-made construct.

but then, I tend to feel the same way about the concept of what sin is. I don't really believe that it's a godly concept.

[Ruby Falls]

It's strange to think of time as nothing but a man-made concept because we live by time.

As for sin, I think of it dating back to Adam and Eve. Mortal sins are defined by the Roman Catholic Church as being fully aware that one is going against God's will and committing the sin anyway. That's why they were kicked out of Eden. Perhaps it was created by the devil, perhaps humans.