D&D 4th Ed Discussion

[Vaporisor]

Well, I was aprehensive about it because what I was hearing is that it is more rule based. I am a very free playing DM. Essentially, if a player wants to do whatever, I work out how. I rarely, if ever allow the expansion books. Just the DMG, PG, and MM's. There have been occasions where we have had a game day without a fight. To me it seems like they forgot the first paragraph of the DMG, that the books are a guideline and you make the rules. I cannot see it having that long term enjoyment if they make things hard set and lacking maliability.

Ex, one campaign, our monk wanted to flank guys from a balcony by doing a wall jump to get up. Will stuff like that be possible? Or the infiltration and assasination of a cult leader by using a myriad of skills to get the party in.

To me, it seems will be too arcadey.

[Pookajoe]

I've had the chance to play the D&D Preview adventure. 1st thing I'm gonna say is that just like any game it will help you if you have a Decent DM.

The combat for 4th Edition really does seem easier than earlier editions, and this is even with keeping in mind the fact the Preview adventure left out certain rules like Grappling. The Fact that you have a certain number of Powers/Abilities that you can use At will, Per encounter, and certain amounts of time a day, makes the ability to take on more combat encounters each day a greater possibility. No more of that Pesky spending two months Searching 2000square feet of Dungeon crap. You're in and Out.

Apparently another big thing about the game is the inclusion of Specific Skill Challenges. Basically they've set it up to point out to DM's and Players Alike that there should be ways to Solve Problems with Skills an guile and not just Sharp Pointy things. So the DM will set up a Challenge that is a series of Skill rolls to achieve a certain goal. Climb the wall, sneak around the narrow Ledge, Drop down Silently behind the ogre, grab the Artifact, Leave behind a bag of sand, climb back, up sneak back around Celebrate victory without combat. or something like that.


I'm not saying that the game is better than the older editions.... At least not yet...

maybe In a few months if I come into some extra cash I'll purchase the books and look at em closer.. But until then. eh.

[Tom the Fanboy]

Bump.

I upgraded the sheet. I'm very proud of it. I want it to be the most popular sheet on the internet. I'm very ambitious.

http://pockyclub.elite-otaku.net/Fillab ... rSheet.pdf

It now is fillable, Reader Enabled, and does field calculations.

[Narf the Mouse]

...An ability score of 10 now has a modifier of -1?

[Tom the Fanboy]

...An ability score of 10 now has a modifier of -1?

EXCLAIMATION!

The computer at work rounded up..... haaaaate.

(no, the bonuses are actually the same)

Fixed now, the rpg.net guys spotted some other errors too.
DING! I now have the if/then code for PDF forms! Woohoo!

My next project will be the solar exalted second edition form from voidstate. With an essence calculator.

[Narf the Mouse]

I have and have read a bit of the PHB. I haven't made a character yet; I'm hoping they get D&D Insider up today or tomorrow. However, to copy my thoughts from an IRC channel...

I have the D&D 4.0 PHB...And I am still optimistic. I haven't read much, but I think I can make a dent in the claims of no customizability - I can literally accurately customize and balance new powers with a few glances, just by trading stuff around.

Chosen at random: Warlock daily power Dread Star: 3d6 + Cha Mod and target is immobilized until the end of your next turn.
Armor of Agathys: 10 + Int Mod Temporary HP, until encounter ends enemies that start their turn next to you take 1d6 damage.
Combined: 2d6 + Cha Mod, target takes 1d6 ongoing damage, save ends.
Or: 10 + Int Mod temporary HP, targets that are next to you immobilized until the end of your next turn.

Downside? The ink smudges too easily. Also, the D&D Insider stuff isn't up yet.

[Narf the Mouse]

Going to a D&D 4th edition game day in a couple hours. I'll review afterwards.

[Narf the Mouse]

Fanboy review in my D&D OOC thread.

[Narf the Mouse]

Bump.

I upgraded the sheet. I'm very proud of it. I want it to be the most popular sheet on the internet. I'm very ambitious.

http://pockyclub.elite-otaku.net/Fillab ... rSheet.pdf

It now is fillable, Reader Enabled, and does field calculations.

Trying it out with a dwarven fighter (Throthgar Urthgutter)...

1) No place to enter 'Low-light vision' under special senses.
2) Can't modify the armor/ability field. Heavy armor means no ability bonus; my dwarf is using plate.
3) I can't seem to modify the check penalties for skills.
4) You can't put damage dice into the damage workspace.

Also, I think this will be a memorable character. I 'heard' the character quite clearly.

5) The powers font is too large; I can't fit enough in on one line.

Other than that it's a great sheet.

[Tom the Fanboy]

The damage workspace isn't built for the dice, the dice go into the Basic Attack section below, the Damage spot was for the bonuses.

What modifiers are you having trouble with in the skills, if you have a negative modifier it should go in with a minus without a problem. Is the AC mod not going in?

All of the auto calculation fields should allow you to override the number with your own entry.


I'll look into the low light vision section. I can't believe I missed that text block. I'll add that on the next update and I'll also center some more of the boxes, I just checked it on my Mac and there's a weird little alignment issue. Ah, Mac is using Preview instead of Acrobat. Ha!

[Pookajoe]

Eladrin, Faepact, warlocks are the Teleporting-est Mother F**kers around.

Got to play in a game Sunday. That was fun, being able to make my own character and all.

I must say I'm enjoying the Game and I'm in the process of making my own Campaign setting as we speak. I haven't really found too many Faults with it. Other than the typical, "Damn it's a new Edition, why do I have to shell out $100 for new books, AGAIN!?" argument.


And I do vaguely Wonder why two of the Races are Essentially, Elves, and Eladrin, the Eladrin being the new race that can be described as. "I'm the more elf than elf, elf race."

[Narf the Mouse]

A significant part of the fantasy fan category are elf fanboys/girls. It's marketing.

Dragonborn: Or dragon fans.
Tieflings: Dark heroes are 'in'.

[Narf the Mouse]

The damage workspace isn't built for the dice, the dice go into the Basic Attack section below, the Damage spot was for the bonuses.

What modifiers are you having trouble with in the skills, if you have a negative modifier it should go in with a minus without a problem. Is the AC mod not going in?

All of the auto calculation fields should allow you to override the number with your own entry.


I'll look into the low light vision section. I can't believe I missed that text block. I'll add that on the next update and I'll also center some more of the boxes, I just checked it on my Mac and there's a weird little alignment issue. Ah, Mac is using Preview instead of Acrobat. Ha!

Ah, thanks.

I misread the the armor check penalty fields; my bad.

When I try to modify the 'armor/ability' field in the AC list, it says 'You are not allowed to modify this field'.

Strange box-shadows on the second wind and death saving throw checkboxes.

Typing in the features, feats and other lists should wrap to the next line, if possible.

[Vaporisor]

Well, having read through the books, From a DM standpoint, it can move much smoother. The lower amount of skills and them being more generalized allows more free roleplaying I find. The dramatic changes to classes and races I dislike a bit. Will need to read dragonborn and tiflings as to whether or not I will allow them in my game. If I do, the players will be using them as though they did a monster race, unique to the world. Just don't fit with us old timer (I used to use the yellow spined DnD books) in terms of story style. The other part I don't like is ability modifiers linked to level. It seems silly that a low intelligence (warlord) should get smarter as much as they get stronger. Haven't had the time to go through them in detail, I have a positive look on them. Oh, and when I start 4th ed, nobody is allowed to have a warlock. SORCEROR ONLY in name. I just don't like the idea of "warlocks" all over. seems less fantasy and more fairy tale.

[Narf the Mouse]

(Unsolicited advice/debate ahead - Feel free to ignore me. I just feel like blathering. )

Dragonborn, at least, are about the same power as everyone else, considering that everyone gets cool class powers. My Eladrin Rogue would be a nightmare for an enemy to pin down long enough to kill and if they do, they may find he's escaped again. And, my Dwarven Fighter makes the perfect roadblock and meatshield for him to dodge behind - Aside from being a monster-killer in his own right. My Human Warlock (Star pact) can do nasty, terrible things to undead with Dire Radiance and Warlocks' curse, aside from being an excellent general-purpose sniper - And having three at-will powers.

I havn't looked over tieflings, though. Ok, now I have. +1 to attack bloodied foes - Half-bonus, half the time. Call it 25%. Resist fire 5 + 1/2 level - one damage type only, but pretty significant. Call it 50%. Infernal Wrath - If an enemy hits you before your turn, you get +1 to attack and Charisma as extra damage on your next attack versus them. Small attack bonus, Charisma as extra damage limits character creation if you're going to take advantage of this, limits your attack choices - And once per Encounter. Sounds about 25% - At most.

Nah, not overpowered.

Story style has changed a bit - And they are presented as odd/semi-monster in the book, respectively. Dragonborn are basically lost and scattered heirs of an ancient empire, very small in number but large in honor. Tieflings are lost and scattered heirs of the enemy of the dragonborn empire; their ancestors made deals with devils. They are basically Gollum with more dignity - Fighting the darkness inside.

Neither of them have a civilization of their own; tieflings generally don't even have villages.

I don't view it as the Warlord becoming smarter; I view it as the Warlord becoming more experienced. (Pun not intended) Basically, it's practice overcoming natural lack of talent in that case.

Fantasy comes from Faerie Tale. Lord of the Rings is essentially one giant ballad of a Faerie Tale...And Disney has about as much to do with the original faerie tales as a dancing crocodile has to do with the real thing.

[Vaporisor]

Oh, it isn't anything about the stats that I disliked, just the style. In my campaigns, backstory and all that written in the books go out the window. I tell every player that wants to start one of my campaigns that only the numbers matter, I could care less about the fluff stuff. I have asked players before not to come back because they wouldn't accept this rule and argued how I set up a monster race civilization. I have nothing against monster players, in fact I encourage them, but it does require character backstory and my own approval on if it can be worked into one of my stories. The basic of previous races, the dwarves, gnomes etc, had similarities to all modern cultural ideas. As result I can develop large civilizations around them and it feels normal. By having a monster race as a base character, it takes away all of the mystique and uniqueness of a monster civilization. Now, some people might not matter, but for me, it is a big thing to my story telling.

As for fantasy/faerie tale, I wasn't concerning myself with historical origins, but just modern day referencing, and not the disney versions. Fantasy often relates to the storys of mages with magic, the hearty warrior etc. Faerie tales are more of the witches and warlock and the boogie man. When I hear warlock, the thought of grand adventures does not pop into my mind. Again, this is a personal mindset. This is important since I write more of an interactive story than a game, keeps it flowing.

[Narf the Mouse]

Huh. I like the dragonborn and even more, the tiefling backstory. I also like Gollum.

Although it does seem they'd all loose a lot of flavor if they weren't wanderers.

I think that's more a motivation thing than anything. All the other classes have readily apparent reasons for adventuring - Clerics and Paladins are advancing the causes of their gods, the Fighter is after battle, either for the love of battle itself or as the best or only way to reach the peak of skill, the Ranger doesn't so much adventure as hunt down threats to nature (Cleric of nature sort of feel), the Rogue is in it for the big score (Money, fame, or just to say 'I was there and did that', which kinda reminds me of Dr. House), the Warlord is much like the fighter, only tactical skills at least as much as combat skills, the Wizard is after forgotten secrets, hidden knowledge and ancient lore.

The Warlock sounds to me a bit like a character that's already completed that journey - Except there's no reason to think that.

Infernal Pact: Just how far would someone go to get out of an unwanted, literal 'deal with a devil'? That suggests story. The grand adventure part would be seeking out beings, powers and secrets enough to get out of it. Or, perhaps the character is quite happy with the deal. They may still want the benifits without the downside, or they may see themselves as a 'cleric of evil'.

Fey Pact: Deals with the Fey can be just as dangerous in myth as deals with a devil, which means they have that for story elements, plus - The pact is ready-made for a world-walking adventure. And that can be quite grand.

Star Pact: You know the truth. They are coming. Maybe you're their herald. Or maybe you are using their power against them - To give mortals one more day to live. Star Pact says 'Lovecraftian' to me - And that's an epic setting. Or, maybe your 'entities from beyond the stars' are just as varied morally as mortals - Which means you can get into good/evil 'cleric' territory. Plus, Star Pact is ready-made to delve into secrets and forgotten lore - That's why I had mine take History (And, to a lesser extent, Arcana and Religion).

[Tom the Fanboy]

You know I JUST realized that Druids were gone!

Barbarians and monks, sure, but Druids, wow.
I gotta re-read the class powers a bit to check on the categorization things and how to convert characters from previous editions.

[Thunderhowl]

Wait wait wait.
Star pacts = Alien Worshippers?

OMG! D&D has Scientology! NOOOOOOOO!!!!

[Tom the Fanboy]

Wait wait wait.
Star pacts = Alien Worshippers?

OMG! D&D has Scientology! NOOOOOOOO!!!!

I a mso quoting this!