The list of 'Don't mess wit 'em'

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The list of 'Don't mess wit 'em'

Postby Narf the Mouse on Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:10 am

A lot of arguments over which fandom could beat which fandom are based on power. Star Trek can fire from warp, Star Wars has ships which can blow up planets (Not in canon, the Death Star is a station), the Culture has big, huge sentient spaceships, the Fifth Imperium has planet-sized spaceships which can dust planets with standard armaments...

...Given that the authors can make whatever high-power stuff they want...

Anyway, I started wondering about which people/collections of people in various fandoms are described best as tough/dangerous. Because any author can write 'And they blew up a star!'. But a great author will have us in tears over the remnants' desperate struggle for survival and justice...

...Anyway. My list, based on what I can remember.

1) Batman. Obvious, and included partly in spite and partly because of that. When well-written, Batman is the ultimate survivor - He'll take on your super-powered badguy, he'll do it without backup, he'll do it without resorting to lethal force and he'll win.

2) The Doctor. Granted, most of what I know about him comes from a few books I read and part of an episode, but he's a guy with no plan and a screwdriver who scares entire empires. He can kill them with his brain...No, not literally.

3) Wolverine. The defining scene for me (I havn't read much marvel; I've got far too many fan stuff to spend money on) is when he kills three bad guys to rescue a little girl - And then makes sure she doesn't see any of the carnage when he rescues her. The ultimate 'tough guy with a heart of gold'.

4) Fred Saberhagens' Dracula. Cold, insane, hanging on to tattered shreds of humanity and honour...And completely implacable in executing the demise of his enemies. In one book, he takes on a demi-god equivalent with only a temporarily enchanted spear...And wins. And then divides the resulting wealth evenly with those who could only watch.

5) Spiderman. For about the same reason as Batman. He's basically the ultimate idealist and a great character because of it.

6) Lex Luther. I don't like him, but the character plays people with consummate skill.

7) The original Borg, before Voyager chibified them. "We are the Borg. Resistance is futile." On the other hand, the Borg almost don't make it, because they wouldn't be The Borg without the tech, but their attitude gets them in, in spite of that.
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Postby Thunderhowl on Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:31 am

Any version of Conan. He has panther-like thews, man! PANTHER-LIKE THEWS! Seriously though, the original Conan (Howard's character) wasn't an unbeatable swordsman, but he was fast, strong and utterly ruthless. He'd attack from suprise and kill half his opponents before they even knew he was there.

John Mclaine from the Die Hard series. So. Much. Punishment. Absorbed. And yet he still manages to save the day and not die from blood loss.

Basically, we're talking Iconic figures here. They've gone past Super Hero straight to Icon. They cannot lose, but they CAN take a terrible ass-kickin along the way.
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Postby Punstarr on Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:07 pm

The problem with Batman is that the hardcore Batman fans think Batman can defeat anybody, and I mean -anybody-. I've heard people dead set that Batman would own Galactus. The point of fandom is to appreciate your favorite character's limitations as well as their strengths. Batman is cool and all, but I can think of more than a few who are absolutely out of his league.

Anyway, end rant.

My additions would be Doctor Doom and Thanos.
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Postby Tom the Fanboy on Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:16 pm

I think Batman could take on Galactus if he had like, a decade to prepare for it. And I don't think he could kill him but he could probably get the big creep sucked through a wormhole or something.

I second Dr. Doom. Poor guy is awesome at tons of stuff but gets crap because he's always shown up by someone. anyone who can be the worlds 2nd best scientist AND the 2nd best Mage in the whole world of superheroes definitely deserves some respect.
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Postby Pookajoe on Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:21 pm

My Addition would be Commissar Ciaphas Cain.

He has the skill, He has the Personality, and he Has luck on his side. And by luck I mean he is the Surest Candidate for being an individual Blessed by the Emperor of Man himself. No if ands or Buts about it.

He may be a coward, and he may be a hopeless Lecher but at least he gets the Job done.


As For Batman, I love the character, but He did get his ass Handed to him by Bane. So He is not unbeatable.
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Postby Narf the Mouse on Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:32 pm

No, Batman isn't unbeatable. But Bane simply overpowered him - And Bane without his power is a helpless wimp.

Batman is his power, from sheer personality.
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Postby Thunderhowl on Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:28 am

It's a fine line between "badass" and lame, with badass riding the edge of being cool while still being believeable and lame having stepped over the edge into either cheese or ridiculousness. It's largely dependant on the writers to keep the true badasses same from jumping the shark into the kingdom of lame, a task more difficult that you'd think.

Some examples of characters that cross the line from badass to lame.

Boba Fett.
The Punisher.
Lobo.
Bane.
Venom (sometimes...)
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Postby Thunderhowl on Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:38 am

Tom the Fanboy wrote:I second Dr. Doom. Poor guy is awesome at tons of stuff but gets crap because he's always shown up by someone. anyone who can be the worlds 2nd best scientist AND the 2nd best Mage in the whole world of superheroes definitely deserves some respect.


A few friends of mine started subscribing to junk mail under the name Victor Von Doom, PhD.
Some of the mail they get for him is pretty amusing.

Everytime I am at the grocery store, and they are doing one of those fundraisers where you spend a dollar and buy a little paper hand or pot of gold or whatever so you can put your name on it as a show of support for the charity I fill mine out Victor Von Doom, PhD. Good times.
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Postby Narf the Mouse on Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:53 am

Von Doom and Magneto are two fictional villains I respect - The real ones, not this 'Ultimate' garbage. Both have a sort of 'fallen nobility' to them - A tragic grandeur that makes their characters more than 'Villains of the week'.

Granted, I know more about Magneto (By the way, Firefox spell-check recognizes that as a word :) ) than Von Doom.

And if bad canon wrecks a character I like, I simply ignore the canon.

That's the greatness of fanon. :D
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Postby Susan Calvin on Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:33 am

My suggestion would be dr. Calvin. An ordinary, grey, bland woman that just happens to be almost morbidly fascinated with robots and their function.
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Postby Narf the Mouse on Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:15 pm

Hmm...I think I agree with that. She once shot a robot she cared for without the slightest flinch or blink.
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Postby DrunkenPrayer on Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:49 am

Batman has his flaws, as good as he is he can lose site of the objective sometimes and once his reasoning takes a back seat he's just a danger to himself and anyone that tries to help him.

I can't believe nobody has said Proffesor X yet, he can potentially take down anyone or mess their head up so badly that they'll never fight again, but he doesn't but that's because he has a very strong moral code. Which considering what he's had to put up with is no small feat. I know the Onslaught saga kind of put a spanner in this theory but even that was a tragic story because he tried to do something good and ended up creating a mosnter that was the antithesis of everything he stood for.
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Postby Thunderhowl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:19 pm

I can't speak for everyone, but I left Prof. X off the list for the same reason I left Captain America and Superman off the list. If I was a purse-snatching crack addict, I wouldn't have to worry about anything more from them than a stern look...that would be enough.

Batman, on the other hand, would likely hang me from a building after punching me in my 'nads or something. You DON'T mess with him.

See the difference in my reasoning? :wink:
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Postby Punstarr on Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:05 pm

Ok, but what would Deadpool do to you?
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Postby Thunderhowl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:59 pm

That's different. Deadpool's a bad guy, and is classified under evil instead of badass.

I don't really consider Dr. Doom a villain. He's a megalomaniac, but he's not always wrong. It's kind of a fine distinction, but it's there.

Both Doom and Thanos have a kind of honour-code. They are different than Deadpool in that once they make a deal with you, they won't shoot you in the back. They may change the deal and shoot you in the face, but they always let you know first. :wink:
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Postby Punstarr on Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:26 pm

Alright, fair enough... so going by the above idea, if Batman would dangle you off a building if you did him wrong, what would Doom or Thanos do?
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Postby Narf the Mouse on Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:07 pm

Just because Doom has excuses or even reasons for those times when he's been evil doesn't make him any less of a villain. Understandable != acceptable.
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Postby Thunderhowl on Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:01 am

Punstarr wrote:Alright, fair enough... so going by the above idea, if Batman would dangle you off a building if you did him wrong, what would Doom or Thanos do?


Thanos would casually vaporize me as an annoyance, and Doom would shoot me with the Mauser he keeps holstered at his side, as I'd be too insignificant to waste his armour's systems on. :lol:
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Postby Punstarr on Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:46 am

*L* No, I mean if you -really- got on their bad side... if they wanted to -punish- you. :twisted:
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Postby Thunderhowl on Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:27 am

Punstarr wrote:*L* No, I mean if you -really- got on their bad side... if they wanted to -punish- you. :twisted:


*shudder* :cry: :(
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