The D&D 4e discussion thread

[Thanatos5150]

Why? Because it came up.

I haven't been reading any of the DevBlogs, but here are a few things that seem to be happening in Fourth Edition D&D.

~ "Making Race Matter"
~~At least, thats what the Devs are claiming. I really hope thy're talking about something beyond the half-baked "Favored Class" mechanic in the current incarnation.

~ "Mixing up the classes"
~~ Apparently, Warlock is now going to be a core class. Also apparently, theres going to be a bunch of power trees - such as the caster's whole Staff-Orb-Wand mechanic, and the Fighters having a bunch of different abilities based on their weaponry, and something that looks like Rogues may be able to pierce armor. A friend likened what I told him of it to WoW's "talent trees". I've never played WoW, so I wouldn't know.

~ Change in Core classes.
~~ Apparently, Tiefling is in the PhB and Gnome is in the MM. Hopefully they don't mess up the Gnome too bad and there are decent rules for Monster PCs. I, for one, kinda like gnomes - and am afraid they're gonna fluff the Tiefling as being the "Hot Infernal Chick" faaar too much.

Anything else you want to discuss?

Discuss.

[Duostrife]

I'll be fine with what ever just as long as the halfling stay just as cool. Halflings are such munckins.

[Thunderhowl]

I kind of get the feeling that MMORPGs are an influence on how the game is changing, in the same way that RPG video games seem to have been an influence on 3.0 and 3.5.
Agreement's? Disagreements?

[Lunaroki]

o.O I is are a monster now? Cool! ^_^

[Tom the Fanboy]

I was so annoyed by the idea of drow and tieflings being base races.
I'd have to research the issue more to make a good argument but I really haven't been interested in anything I've heard.

I can understand the desire for the combat classes to be balanced with the spell casters at higher levels. That's something I've seen first hand when the games get into the epic levels. The combat characters can take on characters well but suck when it comes to monsters. Unless the party spends most of their funds into giving the fighter super equipment he falls behind pretty quick.

However, the caster running out of spells is a problem I've not had to deal with more than one or two times. Usually the DMs I play with aren't throwing encounters that big or that often that they require the casters (especially the healers) to use all of their spells at one time. I could see how it could be a problem but all of the casters in my game have supplemented their spell arsenal with staves, wands, scrolls and normal magic weapons. Again, I reiterate the value of a light crossbow in the hands of your caster, especially if it's got a good magic bonus.

I will concede that since 4th edition will be eliminating the open game license I won't have to deal with the dearth of 3rd party, unbalanced, content that my fellow players seem to obsess over. I'll only have to worry about genuine 4th ed critters and powers. None of the people I game with would bother to convert things themselves and the DMs will lean in our favor with grudge monsters.

[Lunaroki]

I will concede that since 4th edition will be eliminating the open game license I won't have to deal with the dearth of 3rd party, unbalanced, content that my fellow players seem to obsess over.

"I do not think that word means what you think it means."

dearth noun - Scarcity; lack; famine.

Perhaps you mean "plethora"?

[Narf the Mouse]

Making race matter - Apparently, your race will be another source of abilities, besides your class.

Elf races are apparently being simplified to three. I view this as a good thing, overall.

[Punstarr]

I'm in the camp that's crying "DOOOOOOOOOM"... and I'll tell you why.

It's for the same reason I stopped buying anything from White-Wolf after the new "edition". I resent spending craploads of money over the years on books just to find out that they're coming out with a new edition that isn't even remotely compatible with the books I already shelled out my money for. I fully believe that this is nothing but a marketing ploy by Hasbro to attempt to get even more money from us.

"Oh, your old books are worthless now... to play the NEW D&D, you have to buy a completely NEW set of books. Give us more and more and more of your money! Then in 5 years, we'll come out with yet another incompatible system and you'll have to give us even MORE money! We're so clever..."

A new edition that's still marginally compatible with the old edition is one thing... but this? I call BS and I guarantee Hasbro will not get a dime of my money.

Disclaimer: These are my opinions and my opinions alone. I don't expect anyone to agree or disagree with me. Take it for what you will.

[Narf the Mouse]

/me takes it for a rant.

[Tom the Fanboy]

dearth noun - Scarcity; lack; famine.

Perhaps you mean "plethora"?

That's what I get for listening to my firggin near-illiterate friends. Thanks.

[Tom the Fanboy]

Thing is, a caster forced to use a crossbow means they are now a third-rate archer.

Moving the conversation over here....

Well, if the caster doesn't want to continue, I'm used to half the players not stoping and continuing to explore the dungeon on their own and telling the wizard "they'll be right back after they clear out he floor" Or there being no choice in the matter as the party still gets attacked when they pull back to camp. If my groups ran in more modules and depended less on random encounters between villains we may be able to rest for 8 hours in the middle of the day.

Am i thie only one who games with a bunch of ADD afflicted players that'll leave the table if they're aren't doing something for over 5 minutes?

[Clambake 39]

Making race matter? Perhaps they'll add a little more substance to the elven race aside from their whole "better than humans in every way" thing. I can also understand Wizard's desire to trim down on the knee-high races in the core book, but I'd prefer the removal of halflings over gnomes, even if they are miniature cone heads rather than Tolkenian palette-swaps now.

[Narf the Mouse]

Some of the devblogs indicate that gnomes will be a player race in an upcoming 4e book; they just hadn't figured out the 'new look' in time for the PHB.

[Thunderhowl]

I'm in the camp that's crying "DOOOOOOOOOM"... and I'll tell you why.

It's for the same reason I stopped buying anything from White-Wolf after the new "edition". I resent spending craploads of money over the years on books just to find out that they're coming out with a new edition that isn't even remotely compatible with the books I already shelled out my money for. I fully believe that this is nothing but a marketing ploy by Hasbro to attempt to get even more money from us.

"Oh, your old books are worthless now... to play the NEW D&D, you have to buy a completely NEW set of books. Give us more and more and more of your money! Then in 5 years, we'll come out with yet another incompatible system and you'll have to give us even MORE money! We're so clever..."

A new edition that's still marginally compatible with the old edition is one thing... but this? I call BS and I guarantee Hasbro will not get a dime of my money.

Disclaimer: These are my opinions and my opinions alone. I don't expect anyone to agree or disagree with me. Take it for what you will.

Wizards has been especially bad about this lately, and I think I know why.
In my opinion, the open license was a great thing for the hobby, but since other companies jumped into WoTC's sandbox and started doing it better than they were, WoTC was left with no other choice. Either they could jump to a new edition and close the licence or they could go through the expensive and unsteady task of gobbling up smaller companies to cannibalize their talent base.

I don't mind when a game company revises their system since they are in the business to make money, but what angers me is when they revise their setting due to a lack of play testing. D&D 3.0 was an interesting change from 2nd edition, and one that I didn't mind them doing. Where they lost me and my purchasing dollars was the rapid change to 3.5. All my Core Rule books are useless now you say? Huzzah!
Ironically, I was just about to cave in and buy the Core Rules for 3.5 when I found out about 4e. Now IF I buy 4e, I'll be waiting at LEAST 2 years to see if they replace it with another edition.
The one salvation for D&D in my mind is that 3.5 is still an open license (as far as I know) so other companies that actually care about D&D like Green Ronin and Kenzer can keep producing stuff for 3.5. THAT is good news.

In the case of White Wolf games...I liked the setting changes that they made in some cases. Where White Wolf drops the ball, again and again and again however, is the weaknesses in the rules and editing of their books which is terrible. Requiem was interesting, Forsaken sucks, Ascension is meh, but Lost is excellent. I can go on and on in this vein.

Ironically, Palladium Games, who I have always enjoyed playing, needs a big overhaul in their books, especially RIFTS' tendency to have new books completely overpower the main books' stuff. On the one hand I admire their adherance to their tried and true system, on the other hand MDC is broken and needs to be fixed.

[Thanatos5150]

Idle curiosity:
Has anyone else grabbed the "Races and Classes" preview book (and effecitvly horked over more cash to Wizards and the cash cow they're treating D&D like?), or is it just me?

[Tom the Fanboy]

I sure haven't bought it.
I'm content to just complain about it and make unwarranted accusations and misinformed judgement calls. Then when people call me on it I can just say "Oh I don't care, I play White Wolf."

[Pookajoe]

I'm interested in seeing what is actually done for 4th Edition. Admittedly, If the changes seem to have some kind of value, I'll give it a shot. I'm not going to become so Mired in the past that I'll give up the chance at something new.

True, this may be a huge ploy just to get our Money. On the Other hand all things that do not stagnate and die must grow and evolve.

I'll admit I hated the New World of Darkness Stuff when it came out. Much of the Same "They're just trying to get our Money." and "This stuff ruins everything I was doing." thoughts driving those feelings. When I finally took the time to Look at the setting I found out it was Actually an Improvement. Now yes, White Wolf still has the same issues it has always had concerning the rules and editing, but at least this time there are no misspelled words on the covers.

To be Honest, as long as the Iron Kingdoms campaign setting, stays 3.5. I won't care much about the fact they are changing D&D.
If the IK setting changes to 4th, I'll be Pissed a Privateer Press and not WotC.

Actually thinking about it, If 4th Edition , Or any other System for that matter can find A Way to Make PC's in an IK game the Bad asses that Warmachine, Hordes, and the Fluff Material Makes them out to be I'll be angry for a While, then I'll buy the changed system. Really I love the setting more than the Rules for that game. and 3.5 doesn't really Do it justice.

[Punstarr]

My main issue is that I only just now finally bought all the core 3.5 books and now I'm being told they're about to be obsolete.

[Thunderhowl]

My main issue is that I only just now finally bought all the core 3.5 books and now I'm being told they're about to be obsolete.

I don't think that they will be though. Since the 3.5 licence is still an open one, other companies are free to keep producing 3.5 stuff, as far as I know.
If other companies keep producing new material, I think it'll salvage 3.5 as an ongoing system, it just won't be Wizards on the logo.
I'm ok with tha, since other companies like Green Ronin and Kenzer and Co. put out good stuff.
Take heart my man! Only Hasbo and Wizards are full of suck!

[Narf the Mouse]

Someone (Don't remember who, but I think they were involved with wotc somehow) said there were basically two kinds of people at wotc.

To *summerize: Artists and suits. And the artists are not in charge.

* Dictionary.com says it's spelled wrong. Unfortunately, I don't know the correct spelling.