What's Rifts about, anyway?

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Postby Tom the Fanboy on Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:50 am

Gah! Can I not go a single day without someone throwing Parkour in my face? It's the latest trendy sport, it's the new capoiera....
*sigh*

No you cannot take that as a skill. If I was allowing it it would not have those kind of bonuses. Also, I'd have to check the Dogboy RCC to see what physical skills it allows. Parkour is on the same level as Gymnastics and Acrobatic, two of the most restricted physical skills. I may allow some skills that are outside the books I mentioned above, but they must be either in published Rifts books or... maybe... a Rifter. I am currently 2 or three issues behind on the Rifter and should be fixing that by next weekend if I'm lucky.

Also for the record, I am not allowing variant martial art forms. That is why I did not allow Ninjas and Superspies, it complicates things too much.

As for the other stuff that's been mentioned...
I'll gladly allow Juicers, even some of the more common variants.
Rogue Dogboys, feral dogboys, and maybe a couple of the Lone Star critters.
Minotaurs with cybernetics may be OK, but I need to review the stats in the conversion book.

Honestly I suggest people focus on the New West/Spirit West books since that is the setting that we'll be dealing with the most.

I will still be working with the 1:100 MDC conversion but a character hit by 1 MD will not neccesarily die instantly. After all, a laser scalpel can deal 1 MD and people get cut by them all the time! :wink:
I'm sure we'll have plenty of fun with gory flavor text.
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Postby Thunderhowl on Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:39 am

Tom the Fanboy wrote:Gah! Can I not go a single day without someone throwing Parkour in my face? It's the latest trendy sport, it's the new capoiera....
*sigh*

No you cannot take that as a skill. If I was allowing it it would not have those kind of bonuses. Also, I'd have to check the Dogboy RCC to see what physical skills it allows. Parkour is on the same level as Gymnastics and Acrobatic, two of the most restricted physical skills. I may allow some skills that are outside the books I mentioned above, but they must be either in published Rifts books or... maybe... a Rifter. I am currently 2 or three issues behind on the Rifter and should be fixing that by next weekend if I'm lucky.

Also for the record, I am not allowing variant martial art forms. That is why I did not allow Ninjas and Superspies, it complicates things too much.

As for the other stuff that's been mentioned...
I'll gladly allow Juicers, even some of the more common variants.
Rogue Dogboys, feral dogboys, and maybe a couple of the Lone Star critters.
Minotaurs with cybernetics may be OK, but I need to review the stats in the conversion book.

Honestly I suggest people focus on the New West/Spirit West books since that is the setting that we'll be dealing with the most.

I will still be working with the 1:100 MDC conversion but a character hit by 1 MD will not neccesarily die instantly. After all, a laser scalpel can deal 1 MD and people get cut by them all the time! :wink:
I'm sure we'll have plenty of fun with gory flavor text.


Re: the parkour. :cry: I've been a fan of it for years and years and I finally found a reasonable conversion for it on the forums, so I thought I'd ask. *sigh*

Re: the 1:100 MDC/SDC conversion. D: GAH! Ah well. Can I make 7 or 8 different characters for when my they (inevitably) fail their dodge rolls?
So much for SDC small arms...they are now dead weight. Seriously! 1:100 is lame!
But, it's your game, so I'll shut up about it. Ask xaq, after my initial bitching, I get right into it. :)

Now, I don't have the New West or Spirit West books, or the Ultimate Edition, and my HU is older too (Revised) so I may need help with conversions.
My first choices are the Dog Boy or a flying brick-type from HU, but I'd love to play an RDF VT pilot too, so I'll whip up those three for your approval. Do you want em as PMs or emails or what?

Tom, in spite of all the bitching, I'm really glad you offered/let yourself be coerced to run Rifts. I'm looking forward to this game.
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Postby Punstarr on Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:05 pm

My problem with RIFTS is that despite having one of the most colorful and in depth worlds in any RPG, the system seriously sucks and needs a major overhaul. I can't tell you how mindbogglingly easy it is to get a character with ridiculous bonuses to parry and dodge. Combine that with the "physical skill" section, and you have a system just begging to be abused. There's also so many things wrong with the mega damage system that it's not even funny. If Kevin were to fire C.J. Carella and release a revamp of the whole Palladium system, I'd probably have far more interest in playing this game again. It was my very first RPG and thus it holds a special place in my geeky little heart, but imho the system as it stands had got to go.
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Postby Chibiyuri on Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:02 am

I wish i could join in the fun :(, but right now I have to much going on, and I've not really played any PnP RPGs :cry: I'll watch this round and see how everything is done, then join in on a second one if that happends. (Yes I do know that I could be a while. That just gives me a while to read up some more ^_^) I only have the Ultimate Guide and World book 8: Japan, so I've got to scrape up some money and gather up some of the other books.
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Postby Thunderhowl on Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:41 am

Punstarr wrote:My problem with RIFTS is that despite having one of the most colorful and in depth worlds in any RPG, the system seriously sucks and needs a major overhaul. I can't tell you how mindbogglingly easy it is to get a character with ridiculous bonuses to parry and dodge. Combine that with the "physical skill" section, and you have a system just begging to be abused. There's also so many things wrong with the mega damage system that it's not even funny. If Kevin were to fire C.J. Carella and release a revamp of the whole Palladium system, I'd probably have far more interest in playing this game again. It was my very first RPG and thus it holds a special place in my geeky little heart, but imho the system as it stands had got to go.


To be fair to Rifts, ANY system can be abused. That's why there are Storytellers who are obligated to step in and say no to things that break the balance.
Case in point, the requests I made above. I don't think that Parkour as I plucked it from the forums is broken, but for Tom's game, he does. Therefore, I can't have it.
2nd point being my perfectly reasonable and just ;) argument against the 1:100 ratio for megadamage. It made sense in Robotech where all the megadamage weapons were wielded by 50ft robots and aliens, but it's lame for a 6ft tall footsoldier. But Tom doesn't agree, so I have to suck it up. It's his game, and he makes the calls.
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Postby Punstarr on Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:36 am

So what about the ease with which one can attain bonuses of +12-20 to Parry and Dodge? Make that character a Juicer and you have a dodging god.
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Postby Thunderhowl on Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:32 am

Punstarr wrote:So what about the ease with which one can attain bonuses of +12-20 to Parry and Dodge? Make that character a Juicer and you have a dodging god.


Just a couple of points:
You can't dodge explosions, or brackets of 4 or more minimissles.
You can't parry gunfire or energy weapons or blasts.
You can't parry Psionic attacks.
Juicers are supposed to be dodging gods.
Juicers are hunted by the Coalition, and their twitchy, junkie behaviour makes them a pain in the ass to team with.
One year of downtime doesn't really hurt anyone, but it's a 5th of a juicers lifetime, and that's huge.
The best dodge bonus a juicer can start with at first level, assuming a very generous 25 PP is +9. That's high, but it's not extreme, and it requires the Juicer overloading on combat skills making them useless in any other situation. That goes up with level, of course, but higher level characters are supposed to be powerful.
Juicer armour is 45 MDC, and is not fully enviromental, which can expose the Juicer to gasses and chem/bio weapons and extremes of temperature.
If a Juicer is caught in the blast of a MDC grenade or missle, he'd better hope that his GM is forgiving, because non-enviromental armour means your armour survives the blast, but you don't.

Basically this argument can go back and forth for days, but it's not going to solve anything. You don't like Rifts, and I can respect that, but don't claim the system is the only one that is prone to abuse and is worthless without an overhaul. ANY system can be abused, an argument that can be supported by the fact that every gaming table has some house rule changes that it makes to the system it's playing with. When you get a system as inclusive as Rifts you are, by definition, going to increase the amount of house rules. Does that make it more broken? Possibly. Does that make it worthless? Definately not.

By the way, I looooove your sig file. Is it from the Civil War story arc? Cap'n America=Awesome! XD
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Postby Thedon on Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:40 am

hat is an out of this world perry/dodge.
I"ll give you that.

1. dodge any kind of lazer/railgun is at -10 to dodge.
2. you can't dodge a Volley of mini missles / grenades. Point and fact i personaly have taken out several vampires out, not killed just enough o knock them sensless and scare them off.
Being a Juicer is great...all that power and such. but should any thing happen to your bip-system and you hooped. You fall to the ground suffering from withdrawl.

You maybe a dodge god, but there are several ways to take them out, ie Pysonics, magic..ie carpet of adhision (s;?) and a wind spell, your done. even you amke your first save, you still stuck..not as badly but stilll suck. Up to teh dm there if you lose your auto-dodge if you have it.

Another thing, you stock up on nothing but physical skill, your pretty much done with, more then likely you have skipped out on some basic skills that are needed, ie wilderness survial, swimming, cooking, literacy.

I'll say it again, Rifts is a great game, sue youcan have overpowerful characer..but your coming into he game with a lot of things holding you back or a disatvantage.


on a side note, Inidian ins spirit west are hella powerful..but can't use tech, big set back.
I also like the Cowboy and Professional gambler from the new west book. I long past playing a uberpowerful physical character, now i enjoy playing some thing that i will find fun.
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Postby Punstarr on Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:53 pm

Thunderhowl wrote:
Punstarr wrote:So what about the ease with which one can attain bonuses of +12-20 to Parry and Dodge? Make that character a Juicer and you have a dodging god.


Just a couple of points:
You can't dodge explosions, or brackets of 4 or more minimissles.
You can't parry gunfire or energy weapons or blasts.
You can't parry Psionic attacks.
Juicers are supposed to be dodging gods.
Juicers are hunted by the Coalition, and their twitchy, junkie behaviour makes them a pain in the ass to team with.
One year of downtime doesn't really hurt anyone, but it's a 5th of a juicers lifetime, and that's huge.
The best dodge bonus a juicer can start with at first level, assuming a very generous 25 PP is +9. That's high, but it's not extreme, and it requires the Juicer overloading on combat skills making them useless in any other situation. That goes up with level, of course, but higher level characters are supposed to be powerful.


Ok, I suppose I should clarify... in the games I played in when I was younger (back in the days when I owned every book for RIFTS that had been written), the GM often had no problem with allowing players to choose a HTH style from Ninjas and Superspies. By around 6th level I had a character with 8 APM, +13 to Strike and +18 to Parry and Dodge. -Mind you-, this was also a GM who allowed an extra D6 to be rolled if you initially rolled a 16 or higher on an attribute; if you rolled a 6 there, you got another D6. So on a series of perfect rolls, you could start out with a PP of 30. Unlikely but possible. Also remember I was around 16 at the time... the only system around (or so we said) that allowed for more twinkery was GURPS, and it exceeded Palladium's twinkery by a thousandfold. I've since long outgrown my munchkin phase (I'm nearly 30 now). Imagine a Juicer with HTH: Muy Thai Kickboxing.

Juicer armour is 45 MDC, and is not fully enviromental, which can expose the Juicer to gasses and chem/bio weapons and extremes of temperature.
If a Juicer is caught in the blast of a MDC grenade or missle, he'd better hope that his GM is forgiving, because non-enviromental armour means your armour survives the blast, but you don't.


Well that's certainly true for standard Juicers, but then they came out with Juicer Uprising (which don't get me wrong, was an amazing book), which introduced new Juicer variants, including the Mega Juicer. What crack was being smoked? A Juicer who's an MDC Creature... now imagine said Juicer with HTH: MTK as a Mega Juicer. Now he can afford to take a volley of missiles and some explosions, especially if he's wearing the (available in Juicer Uprising) environmental full body suits of armor now available to him with a lot more than 45 MDC.

Basically this argument can go back and forth for days, but it's not going to solve anything.


Well I wouldn't say I'm arguing, just expressing my opinions on the matter with a little debate. I understand what you're saying though.

You don't like Rifts, and I can respect that,


Not true. I love RIFTS... it was my first game and the setting is fantastic. I just think the Palladium system could use a major overhaul.

but don't claim the system is the only one that is prone to abuse and is worthless without an overhaul.


I never said it was the only system prone to abuse... just that it's one of the more easily abusable systems. More than most games, RIFTS tends to center on combat, and so players are naturally going to try and take every advantage to combat they can get (especially in a game setting as ungodly lethal as RIFTS. I can't tell you how many of my characters died)... the most readily available advantages are the physical skills. Unfortunately, most of the GMs I've played with tend to put little emphasis on non combat skills being needed (at least proportionate to the need for combat capability). Maybe it's just my experiences, but RIFTS to me is a game of kill or be killed... the world is ridiculously deadly.

ANY system can be abused, an argument that can be supported by the fact that every gaming table has some house rule changes that it makes to the system it's playing with. When you get a system as inclusive as Rifts you are, by definition, going to increase the amount of house rules.


This is true.

Does that make it more broken? Possibly. Does that make it worthless? Definately not.


I think I should clarify here. In no way, shape or form do I literally think the system is "worthless". It's just that in it's current incarnation, I have little desire to play the game. The only desire I do have stems from the setting rather than the system. I do not hate RIFTS... I freaking love the game. I'd love to hear some of your house rules, actually. Who knows? I may find some ideas that'll help me get past the flaws in the system that I perceive.

By the way, I looooove your sig file. Is it from the Civil War story arc? Cap'n America=Awesome! XD


Thank you! :)

Yes, that's the end of Captain America's speech to Spider-Man in Civil War. Cap is probably my favorite super hero.
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Postby Xaq on Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:19 pm

If nobody else has claimed the Heavy, I'll go ahead with my cyborg minotaur. I shamelessly ripped off the look of the character from the cyber-demon in the original DOOM. ;-) Lighter on the armor than most cyborgs, so that it's not way out of synch with the rest of the team. Sound good?
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Postby Thunderhowl on Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:31 pm

Punstarr wrote:
By the way, I looooove your sig file. Is it from the Civil War story arc? Cap'n America=Awesome! XD

Thank you! :)
Yes, that's the end of Captain America's speech to Spider-Man in Civil War. Cap is probably my favorite super hero.


I had a speech like that one in a Champions game I was playing, except it wasn't about truth and freedom, it was about why Heroes don't kill.
I can't remember my entire rant (one of those times I would have loved to have taped the game session) but it basically ended with "Heroes don't kill because it's the easy way out. Being a hero isn't about doing it the easy way, it's about doing it the right way. Just because you CAN kill something, doesn't mean You SHOULD."

Our GM couldn't wipe the grin off his face. It was a great session. Cap always has great lines like that, and he called it my Captain America speech at coffee after the game.
By the way. Cap could whup Batman's ASS in a fistfight. I'm just sayin.
:lol:
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Postby Thanatos5150 on Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:16 pm

Its offical. Captain America is THAT awesome. Unfortunatly, I never have speeches like that. I do, however, get a lot of "shoot the dog" moments.


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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.ShootTheDog
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Postby FirstAidKit on Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:00 pm

xaq wrote:If nobody else has claimed the Heavy, I'll go ahead with my cyborg minotaur. I shamelessly ripped off the look of the character from the cyber-demon in the original DOOM. ;-) Lighter on the armor than most cyborgs, so that it's not way out of synch with the rest of the team. Sound good?


You're welcome to it as far as I'm concerned. The character I want to do is a juicer who's going to be more of the speedy type. Or at least, that's my aim.
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Postby Punstarr on Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:14 pm

FirstAidKit wrote:
xaq wrote:If nobody else has claimed the Heavy, I'll go ahead with my cyborg minotaur. I shamelessly ripped off the look of the character from the cyber-demon in the original DOOM. ;-) Lighter on the armor than most cyborgs, so that it's not way out of synch with the rest of the team. Sound good?


You're welcome to it as far as I'm concerned. The character I want to do is a juicer who's going to be more of the speedy type. Or at least, that's my aim.


I'd go for a Hyperion Juicer then... they actually have super speed.
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Postby FirstAidKit on Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:09 pm

Honestly, I read up on them before the testing rush here. They're cool, and I'm going to be reading up on them a bit more. I was thinking normal juicer just because it fits the character I wanted to create a little better, both for skill s and personality. But hey, I have to go through the whole goram thing sometime in the next week, and I'll know better then. Still, definitely something to take into consideration.


Oooooon the other hand, I figure if someone else wants a role like that, I'd be perfectly at home as a Body Fixer. Hell, that's basically what I do now anyway. I can almost pick my skill set in reality from the table in the source book. Decisions, decisions. Well, c'mon people! Who wants to play?
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Postby Punstarr on Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:29 am

Just curious... in this game, are rules/characters from the RIFTS Conversion Book allowed?
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Postby Tom the Fanboy on Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:01 am

xaq wrote:If nobody else has claimed the Heavy, I'll go ahead with my cyborg minotaur. I shamelessly ripped off the look of the character from the cyber-demon in the original DOOM. ;-) Lighter on the armor than most cyborgs, so that it's not way out of synch with the rest of the team. Sound good?


Hairless and sunburned? :wink:

The 1:100 thing is just to make things easier for me to pull numbers. One decimal is not a big deal but one decimal point 100s of times gets annoying. If people want a grittier setting then I can steer the story down an SDC path, there's plenty of people using SDC weapons out there after all. How the heck do you AFFORD those fancy laser pistols on a farm hand's wage after all? Also, the guys WITH MD weapons will probably be shooting at the party's giant robot or screaming minotaur cyborg.

The stats for the Parkour skill are fine, I don't think its broken. I just want to avoid non-standard content.

For the conversion book, yes, but only from the settings I listed (which are all ones I have books for, natch).

I'm all for a VT pilot, we just need to see if the mecha itself will fit in. If not then we might have to find you something else (maybe a mecha in game). I'm a big fan of of human D-Bees.


Hmmm... speaking of D-Bees. How do you guys feel about NPCs travelling with the party? I know a lot of people hate GM-PCs so I tread lightly.
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Postby Thunderhowl on Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:23 am

Tom the Fanboy wrote:The stats for the Parkour skill are fine, I don't think its broken. I just want to avoid non-standard content.

I say again... :cry: D:

Tom the Fanboy wrote:I'm all for a VT pilot, we just need to see if the mecha itself will fit in. If not then we might have to find you something else (maybe a mecha in game). I'm a big fan of of human D-Bees.

Hmmm... speaking of D-Bees. How do you guys feel about NPCs travelling with the party? I know a lot of people hate GM-PCs so I tread lightly.


I was thinking I'd prefer the dogboy, until he fails his first dodge roll, (:P)
and then a flying brick type superhero, and THEN a VT pilot. :lol:

I'm totally cool about you running a STPC if you want, the more the merrier. The only question I have left is how you want us to send you the character sheets... Is there an online database for Rifts characters like the one we're using for Narf's D&D game?
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Postby Punstarr on Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:03 am

So what about the Heroes Unlimited rules in the Conversion Book?
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Postby Thunderhowl on Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:50 pm

They seem pretty straight forward to me. I assumed Tom would do his conversions on a case by case basis. Thinking about playing a Cape?
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