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Darkbringer Arguments

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:33 am
by Mega
Figured I'd be helpful, and give you some points for DB to make for his case against goodness. Since it's contradictory to your viewpoint, and complimentary to mine, I could lend some angles you might have missed.

1. Heroes are extremely condescending. They look down on people. always saving them. F-em. Let them save themselves. They need to take responsibility for their own lives. Super Heroes function on the basic presupposition that people are incapable of self-preservation. And that's simply not true. Case in point, lone girl walking through rough neighborhood late at night gets mugged. Honestly? Screw her. She should know better than to be there. I have a very small chance of being bitten by a shark this week. You know why? I live 60 miles from the nearest ocean. If you don't go where sharks live, you don't get bit. Swimming in the ocean is basically hanging out in their fridge.

2. You can not save them all. LB simply can't be in all places at once. Eventually, he will have to choose. Save this one, or save that one. But not both. No one should have the right to make that choice. What are the criteria for the decision? How is the choice made? Do you save the single innocent, or the bus load of guilty? This comes down to one of your own core beliefs, in that whichever one he chooses not to save, he basically kills.

3. Who decides who is "good" or "evil?" It's not always obvious at first glance. For example: A man is being chased by three others. They are going to beat the snot out of him, but they have no weapons, so most likely won't kill him. Hero time, save the guy, right? Well, what if the three dudes are chasing a child molestor they just stopped from raping some little girl? Should LB beat up those three, so the guy can get home safely? Sure, as a moral absolute, no one should beat up anyonme, but I happen to live in this could, harsh place called reality, and here, s- happens. The only way LB could stop those three guys is with a beating, and they clearly don't deserve it.

4. Heroes are hypocritical. "Don't beat people up, or I'll kick your a-." It's insane. Literally, it fits a clinical definition of insanity, believing that one set of rules apply to oneself, and a different set for everyone else.

5. Selflessness is dishonest. Humans (the super variety included) are incapable of pure selflessness. We only do something if we're gonna get something back. Even if the something is small and invisible, like the feeling of "having made a difference." Selfishness is the only form of honesty. The guy who walks up and takes your wallet is not trying to trick you, or misdirect, or fool you. He is honesly saying he values money more than your feelings or personal safety. Simple, honest transaction. The hero who gets your wallet back? He's saying 1: You are weak, and cannot do it on your own. I am therefore superior. 2. I have passed my judgement, and whatever need this man may have (his kids may be starving) is less important than my personal sense of right and wrong. 3. I know nothing about you, but have the belief that you need this money so badly, it's worth me risking both our lives to get it back for you. 4. You should thank me and be grateful, for I am wonderful to stop my day to get your wallet back. Even if he never says any of this. Even if he doesn't consciously think this. These are the implied beliefs behind his actions.

Some Pro-Darkness beliefs:

1. Life is hard, and that's a good thing. Survival of the fittest. Look, evolution is a test. If who you are is enough of the right answers on that test, you pass, and are allowed to pass on your worthy genes. If not, you fail, and die. A bit cold, but clean, honest, simple, and self-contained. The kid who swallows too many marbles doesn't get to grow up and have stupid kids of his own. But, the superhero business makes every answer to the test questions the right answer. Everyone survives, evolution stops.

2. Adversity makes people better. Overcoming difficulty shows you how to overcome more difficulty. In this modern world, where great dangers are somewhat unlikely, a man (Or what we are forced to call a man) faces the posibility of going his entire life without ever knowing if he is or is not a coward, or a wimp, or unable to defend himself. Sure, we save a few thousand lives every year, but we have sapped some of the meaning of Man out of it. This kind of goes back to number 1, but adds the point that you can grow as a human being. However, if someone does all the work for you, you will never grow.

3. Darkness makes you appreciate the light. If every day is a sunny day, then sunny days have no value. It is because of the rain, not in spite of it, that we have learned to value pleasant weather. In fact, with less contrast between what is light and dark, the slightest bit of grey becomes a bigger threat to us. If the biggest challenge of your day is whether or not you can find a pen, then if your car breaks down, that's a huge emergency. But, ask a Holocaust survivor how big of a deal a flat tire is. You may have a flat, but you're not being forced to do hard labor, fed eachother, and then gassed and killed horribly.

So, those are some points DB can make in his case against LB. Use what you will discard the rest.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:40 am
by Sun tzu
Wow. Just reading these makes me queasy.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:57 am
by Linkara
Which ones, sun - his views or the Darkness'? ^_~

I don't have time to respond to these in full at the moment (since I'm in class), but I'll get to them a little later today. I admit, a lot of these are contrary to my opinions, but I can recognize that certain people have different philosophical angles on it and I do understand the reasoning behind it. Doesn't mean I'm not going to argue about it, though! :twisted:

I am curious, though, Mega - I get the impression you really like the comic, yet your beliefs run quite a bit opposite from Lightbringer's views on heroics. How does that work, if I may ask? ^_~

On that same note, I'm also curious: from reading your viewpoints about selflessness and personal responsibility, are you an Objectivist?

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:53 am
by Mega
Linkara wrote:On that same note, I'm also curious: from reading your viewpoints about selflessness and personal responsibility, are you an Objectivist?

No, I work in a gas station. :lol:

Seriously, though, I don't know what that word means. not a big fan of philosophy. Doesn't pay the rent. More into spirituality. I'd post my actual views as related to the seven chakras of the human body, but I doubt anyone would care.

I can relate to LB on the level of trying to "save" people. It never works the way you want it to. Oh, and I never said those were my outright views, just some of what I think DB's views would be. I simply thought, "How would this character come to be? What underlying frames created him?" I learned to do that from the seduction community.

While I can somewhat relate to DB's ideals, they are not entirely my own.

A bit off topic, but one thing I don't agree with the comic is that the nerdy super-smart one stays and mans the microphone back at base, and the super strong one goes out side-kicking to beat up bad guys. Just how that works. Purple haired-girl should not have a desk job.

Other than that, keep up the good work!


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:46 pm
by Linkara
Well, that is a bit different. Thanks for the suggestions on his views! Darkbringer will be appearing later on and help from the fans is always appreciated. ^_^

Objectivism is a philosophical thought created by Ayn Rand. There are parts of it I like and parts of it I don't like, but here's a better picture of it than I can provide:

As for the idea of helping people, I'm going to give a quote given by Heliomance on the matter (paraphrased since I'm on my laptop and don't have access to the exact quote): Once there was a beach where thousands of fish had washed up onto the shore. Most were still alive but dying quickly. A boy came along and began throwing the fish back into the sea. A man came up and asked, "What's the point in doing that? You can't possibly make a difference for all of them." The boy replied, "Yeah, but it makes a difference for the ones I save, doesn't it?"

A hero may not be able to save everyone, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't still try. ^_~ Oh, and I like the condescending argument in particular, even if I disagree with it. Good stuff! One more question, though: "Seduction committee?"

Oh, and Mega? Stick around for Issue 8. Purple-haired (or is it pink? HA! You'll never know!) girl's going to show everyone what she's doing. ^_~

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:56 am
by Mega
Seduction Community, and oops. Not used to being on a forum that isn't for community members not really supposed to divulge secrets. But, since the cat's already out of the bag, here's a link.
And when his methods make you want to kill yourself:

Anyway, the views I gave for DB aren't really my own. I was trying to go way too far with it, like... you know... whacked-out supervillian far. As for me, I like to honor people's path. Sometimes, that means helping them along the way. Sometimes, it means being as far away as I can get. But I respect everyone enough to let them make their own choices.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:29 am
by Linkara
Checked the Wiki for the Seduction Community. It's... different. ^^;

Well, sorry about jumping to conclusions there, it just didn't seem like you were distinguishing your own beliefs with those of the Darkbringer that well. Thanks for the clarification and the ideas!

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:40 pm
by Heliomance
Don't worry about misquoting me, I was repeating the story from memory anyway ^_^ I can't remember where I read it in the first place.

Re: Darkbringer Arguments

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:14 pm
by DimLightbulb
Sorry for the thread necromancy (it's not magick, so I can explain it).

Just wanted to add something about Mega's point relating to adversity. J. Michael Straczynski put into his Shadow arc for Babylon 5 the opposing sides of the Vorlons and the Shadows - the Vorlons are into order and discipline, the Shadows into chaos and conflict.

The Shadows believe that to get a sentient species to evolve, you need to provoke regular conflicts to tear down their achievements and force them to repeat those achievements, while the Vorlons went with the opposite. However, as JMS says, the truth is somewhere inbetween, following only the Vorlon way leads to peace at the cost of stagnation and dead ends, following only the Shadow way leads to enhancements at the cost of many, many, lives.

Essentially, adversity can be a good thing for us - what doesn't kill us makes us stronger - but even that is a flawed way of thinking. Us humans draw strength from lots of sources - friends, family, loved ones, upbringing, religious faith (disclaimer: I'm an atheist), and so on.

I hope I've explained that okay - sometimes, my philosophical brain seems to be parked somewhere in another dimension and not even the Type 40 TARDIS can retrieve it.

Re: Darkbringer Arguments

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:59 pm
by Gear001
The one thing that I really hate about this debate is the overuse of the word 'darkness' to represent evil. With all due respect to Linkara's concept of 'Lightbringer vs Darkbringer', but I have strict belief that Light and Darkness are two neutral elements, two sides of the same coin. Neither are bad nor good, but evil tends to hide in the dark and good tends to bask in the light, giving people the wrong impression that the two are actually representative of what inhabits it regularly. I am of the impression that Light and Dark actually harbor opposites of their affiliations; good in the dark and bad in the light.

How many businessmen are there out there that are completely corrupt? Criminals that hide in plain sight, i.e. the light, and get away scott free. And there are heroes that harness darkness to save the world, willingly making sacrifices that would seem 'bad' to save copious lives. People who live outside the law to bring justice to the evil. Hell, Lightbringer uses darkness himself, operating outside legal peramiters (the 'light' in this case) to right wrongs and to rescue the innocent.

I'm just putting this out there. It's food for thought. When you start looking at the properties of Dark and Light as neutral it tends to shift your world.