Wow. (1/22)

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Wow. (1/22)

Postby Sun tzu on Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:51 pm

I just wanted to say...I was impressed by today's page. The way their dialogues entwine...I think it's your best page yet.
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Postby Linkara on Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:00 am

Glad you liked it. I'm really proud of how the page turned out, both in writing and art. ^_^

Now let's see if it all goes downhill from here!
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Postby Sun tzu on Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:10 am

Having read today's update...I'm starting to think Darkbringer's going to be my favorite villain so far.
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Postby Linkara on Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:57 am

I hope he lives up to your expectations. I will say that he's going to be doing a little preaching about his religion/philosophy, but it'll be different than, say, Lightbringer's ability to say five sentences during the course of shooting a single energy blast at the Gentleman. ^_~
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Postby Sun tzu on Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:20 am

Reading today's comic and footnotes...Hm. This guy sure has a complicated view.
However, I must disagree with the idea that "the promise of good is that it can triumph over evil forever". I mean, sure, it's an idea common in Christianity, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't holding out a certain hope of that nature myself...But it's not by any means a central part. Plenty of people see it as more of a "there will be always be evil, and there'll always be good to stand in its way" thing.
To quote from Digimon: "Where there's light, you'll always find darkness as well. The stronger the light is, the deeper the darkness. We have to remember that no matter how the powers of darkness surround you, the most important thing is not to lose the light inside."
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Postby Linkara on Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:01 pm

Well, not necessarily forever, but I'd say one of the tennents of good is that it is supposed to triumph over evil either in the long run or that at the end of the day, good always wins through.

You do have a good point, though, with the idea of a good always at least being there to oppose evil, and the quote from Digimon is also well-taken (*Sighs as he waxes nostalgia for seasons 01 and 02*). However, the Darkbringer would turn it around and say that since neither side seems to win through, the stalemate is perpetuated by having a light and darkness that has one side deepen when the other deepens.

Still, I hope you're still liking him as a villain. ^_^
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Postby Sun tzu on Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:43 pm

Well, not necessarily forever, but I'd say one of the tennents of good is that it is supposed to triumph over evil either in the long run or that at the end of the day, good always wins through.


See, that's kinda what I disagree with. Part of being good is about doing the right thing even if you're going to lose...And it doesn't take that thorough an examination of the world to see that good doesn't always win. Doesn't make it any less the right side.

You do have a good point, though, with the idea of a good always at least being there to oppose evil, and the quote from Digimon is also well-taken (*Sighs as he waxes nostalgia for seasons 01 and 02*)

Hey, season 3 was pretty high-quality too. It may have lacked the first two seasons' more spiritual "the Digital World is made of human hopes and dreams" aspect, but I thought the added realism made it a very solid season.
Now, Season 4 wasn't up to par. No argument there.

Still, I hope you're still liking him as a villain.

Oh, I'm waiting to see how it all turns out...
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Postby Linkara on Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:57 pm

True that, and I totally agree with you about being good even knowing you'll fail and that sometimes good doesn't always win. The thing is, I just think that eventually the promise is that even if the battle is lost and good takes a blow, I think that part of goodness is that when the end of the world does come, it's going to be good that wins through. Of course, maybe that's just my own interpretation of it. ^^;;

I liked Season 03, as well, despite how different it was from the previous two seasons. My only real beef with it was that it seemed, at some times, darker than 01 and 02 and there didn't seem to be a lot of recovery FROM the darkness of it all (I'm still trying to remember what happened to that one girl, the one with the Leomon, and what brought her out of the D-Reaper). I didn't like 04 mostly because it eliminated the partner aspect of the previous seasons.
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Postby Sun tzu on Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:21 pm

True that, and I totally agree with you about being good even knowing you'll fail and that sometimes good doesn't always win. The thing is, I just think that eventually the promise is that even if the battle is lost and good takes a blow, I think that part of goodness is that when the end of the world does come, it's going to be good that wins through. Of course, maybe that's just my own interpretation of it. ^^;;

That's assuming the end of the world eventually comes (not an unreasonable assumption going by today's physics). For the record, my signature on some other forums is "The problem with History is that it can't have a happy ending".
Now, if you're going by the Christian worldview (which may not be the case, but it's the impression I got), then, yes, good has to win in the end, because the deus ex machina who set down the rules is the ultimate good guy and will handle everything in the epilogue.
Me, I'm a materialist and atheist. The way I see it, the end of the world would be the ultimate tragedy - perhaps not evil winning, but definitely good losing.

I liked Season 03, as well, despite how different it was from the previous two seasons. My only real beef with it was that it seemed, at some times, darker than 01 and 02 and there didn't seem to be a lot of recovery FROM the darkness of it all (I'm still trying to remember what happened to that one girl, the one with the Leomon, and what brought her out of the D-Reaper)

Okay, spoilers ahoy, so people have been warned.




I actually liked the additional darkness of Season 3 - "it's always darkest before dawn". I would say there was a recovery - that girl (Geri) finally took a stand, fought back against D-Reaper, made peace with Leomon's death, was rescued by Takato...and forgave Impmon in the finale, in what I thought was a particularly touching scene. D-Reaper was finally defeated (interestingly...the kids and their digimon never quite beat it. It was science that brought it down, with the digimon simply delivering the attack), and, although the finale had the same tear-jerker as the finale of season one (the kids and the digimon are separaed), the last few seconds were an extremely happy note as Takato discovers a working portal between the two worlds.

I didn't like 04 mostly because it eliminated the partner aspect of the previous seasons.

That was one of the main problems, yes. I suspect that Digimon Frontiers is one of those things that would have been pretty decent stand-alones, but made the mistake of trying to connect themselves to something pre-existing. If they hadn't made it Digimon, it might have been better.
...
This thread ending up being more about Digimon than Lightbringer is my fault, isn't it? :oops:
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Postby Linkara on Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:31 pm

Well, yeah, I'm coming from a Christian standpoint of it, so I'm sorry if I'm kind of shoving my beliefs down your throat there. My apologies. ^^;; However, I think that other belief systems, be they religious or purely philosophical in nature, tend to believe that good is a superior force to evil in some regard or that even though the fight continues on for so long, that it will be good that wins out. It's possibly due to their own hopes, optimistic viewpoints, or simply a refusal to allow evil to win. However, in the case of the Darkbringer, part of his religion is that the powerful are the correct side. "Might is right," as it were, and if there's a stalemate between good and evil, how is one supposed to pick the superior side? In his case, he chose a mixture of the two, with the Darkness providing him with his sense of right and wrong while allowing him to commit wrongdoings without tarnishing his "purity."

Ah, yes, thank you for reminding me. ^_^ I liked that ending. Impmon is one of my favorite characters from Digimon.

And yes, this has turned into a discussion on Digimon, and you should feel ashamed of your actions. :evil:

LOL, just kidding. As I said in the rules, it's perfectly all right to post about other comics and I do include anime/manga in that regard, since they can have an effect either on the comic or just in general superheroes. And the Digidestined, IMHO, certainly qualify as superheroes. ^^
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Postby Sun tzu on Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:07 pm

Well, yeah, I'm coming from a Christian standpoint of it, so I'm sorry if I'm kind of shoving my beliefs down your throat there. My apologies. ^^;;

No problem whatsoever, just pointing out that our viewpoints change some of the assumptions we have on the topic.

However, I think that other belief systems, be they religious or purely philosophical in nature, tend to believe that good is a superior force to evil in some regard or that even though the fight continues on for so long, that it will be good that wins out. It's possibly due to their own hopes, optimistic viewpoints, or simply a refusal to allow evil to win.

While I generally consider myself an optimist...I'm afraid the "refusal to allow evil to win" plays a big part here.
I mean, the fact the world still exists after the Cold War could be construed as circumstancial evidence for the many-worlds theory (as in, "in most universes the Earth was devastated, and we're just living in one of the few where it wasn't").

Ah, yes, thank you for reminding me. ^_^ I liked that ending. Impmon is one of my favorite characters from Digimon.

Agreed. I'm a sucker for redemption stories.

LOL, just kidding. As I said in the rules, it's perfectly all right to post about other comics and I do include anime/manga in that regard, since they can have an effect either on the comic or just in general superheroes. And the Digidestined, IMHO, certainly qualify as superheroes.

Heh. There was recently a thread in CBR on wether there are digimon who could beat pre-crisis Superman in a fight. I argued that the only ones with a chance were Apocalymon (rock falls. Universe dies.) and D-Reaper (not strictly a digimon, but virtually invincible).
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Postby Linkara on Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:54 pm

Actually I saw the end of the Cold War as confirmation of the "Mutually Assured Destruction" theory. Or, at the very least, that Capitalism is better. ^_~ Come to think of it, though, parallel worlds plays a pretty big part in Lightbringer, for both a few heroes and a few villains...

Ooh, that's a tough dilemma. Apocalymon MIGHT have a chance, albeit I'm not so sure considering he got smacked in about ten minutes by two Megas and six Ultimates. On top of that, Pre-Crisis Superman could juggle planets...
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Postby Sun tzu on Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:12 am

Linkara wrote:Actually I saw the end of the Cold War as confirmation of the "Mutually Assured Destruction" theory. Or, at the very least, that Capitalism is better. ^_~ Come to think of it, though, parallel worlds plays a pretty big part in Lightbringer, for both a few heroes and a few villains...

Thing is, we did come frighteningly close to nuclear annihilation more than once - the time with Cuba, or the time with Stanislav Petrov, to name but two.

Ooh, that's a tough dilemma. Apocalymon MIGHT have a chance, albeit I'm not so sure considering he got smacked in about ten minutes by two Megas and six Ultimates. On top of that, Pre-Crisis Superman could juggle planets...

Well, yeah. Post-crisis Supes might actually fall to Lucemon, Daemon or Malomyotismon.
I have little doubt that pre-crisis Clarck is stronger than Apocalymon by several orders of magnitude, but he did have that suicide world-destroying attack, hence the uncertain outcome.
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Postby Wandering Observer on Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:41 pm

What comes to my mind when reading this discourse is the nature of the victory one hopes that good will eventually realize. What does this victory look like for each of you?


What about Omnimon? Doesn't he stand a chance?
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Postby Linkara on Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:47 pm

Hard to say exactly. I suppose in my mind the ultimate victory would be people living forever-after in happiness and peace with their neighbors. No more crime, no more hurting other people either deliberately or unintentionally... My utopia is a bit far-fetched of an idea, so I'll leave the details of that out for the moment. ^_~

As much as I love Omnimon, he got smacked by Diaboromon's final evolved state in the fourth movie, so I don't know how effective he'd be against Pre-Crisis Superman...
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Postby Sun tzu on Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:23 pm

Let's see.
Omnimon >> a regular mega >> an ultimate >> a champion >> a rookie > a normal person.
PC Superman >> someone who's barely a planet-buster >> current Superman >> JLU Superman >> Spider-Man >> a navy SEAL >> a normal person.
I'd say Omnimon's toast. He ain't no planet-buster.

As for good winning...I'd imagine a situation where everybody, or at least the overwhelming majority, were what we would call good people, and generally kept improving over time.
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Postby Wandering Observer on Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:54 pm

For sun tzu:
How would this victory be achieved?
What constitutes a good person?

And for the Linkara:
How do you define Happiness?
How can one stop unintentional pain?

Poor Omnimon. Oh well. Anyways, I think a challenge to see who'd beat PC superman really does lose a certain level of merit, mainly for the same reasons that I lost interest in Dragonball Z after Frieza died. Characters powerful enough to destroy the world several times over if they sneeze the wrong way seem a bit boring to me.
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Postby Wandering Observer on Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:00 pm

My apologies for double posting,

Feel free to answer all the questions (not just your own specific ones) if you wish
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Postby Linkara on Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:27 pm

Happiness is a general state of exuberance or feeling of well-being about any number of subjects.

Not sure about how to stop unintentional pain using just humanity (maybe borrow an example from Squadron Superme and use those nifty force field belts), but from a Christian perspective, I imagine that after the forces of good have ended, it'll be heaven on earth, with no more suffering of any kind.

And yeah, it's why I could never get into DBZ to begin with. It just seemed too... omnipotent in power levels.
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Postby Sun tzu on Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:15 am

Wandering Observer wrote:For sun tzu:
How would this victory be achieved?

Wish I knew.
What constitutes a good person?

For starters, someone who doesn't put his interests ahead of others'. It's not the only requirement, but it's the biggest one.

Poor Omnimon. Oh well. Anyways, I think a challenge to see who'd beat PC superman really does lose a certain level of merit, mainly for the same reasons that I lost interest in Dragonball Z after Frieza died. Characters powerful enough to destroy the world several times over if they sneeze the wrong way seem a bit boring to me.

Well, it's not like PC Superman can't be beaten...Mr Myx, pre- or post-crisis, can wipe the floor with him any time of the day. Pre-crisis Darkseid was way above his level (back when Darkseid was actually a threat to the entire DC universe, and not someone whom anybody could defeat). There was that great imaginary story where Luthor finally managed to kill him (highly complex plan, but the final step involved exposing him to kryptonite long enough to kill him. The hard part was setting up a situation where he could do it).
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