The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Yeahduff on Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:14 am

Killbert-Robby wrote:"I'm going to sell out ethically and politically to vote for someone who I don't want running my country because he's (marginally) the lesser of two shitbags, so I can justify myself bitching about the other guy when he's in office"
The essence of democracy?

Maybe not voting doesn't stop one of the two people going into office. However, it's her *right* to vote, and much like the right to bear arms, or for women to work, an *option*, why would she have to voice her support for someone she does not support? "Just vote for the lesser of two evils". No. Vote for the person who you want running the country. It's like deciding if you'd rather have a kick in your teeth or nads.

I wouldn't call this throwing away her vote. Throwing away her vote is helping a guy she doesn't want in office to get there, defeating the purpose of democracy.


The essence of democracy is you have the choice. And you have the choice of whether or not you want to choose. Obviously you have the right not to vote. The discussion is should you or should you not.

Chances are one person champions policies and/or philosophies you agree with, and the other does not. Vote for the the kick in the teeth if you'd like to preserve abortion rights, kick in the nads if you want a tax cut.

All your not voting will accomplish is taking yourself out of the equation. You no longer matter. Bitterness has a way of becoming apathy in a real hurry.

And having something and not using it is as good as throwing it away. Try it with bread, you'll get similar results.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Dr Legostar on Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:22 am

Yeahduff wrote:2000 was a frustrating experience for everyone. But it shows how much individual votes mean. It can be argued that 3rd party voters determined the outcome, letting their dissatisfaction be heard, displayed at the bottom of the screen on each state tally.

Politicians like to keep the numbers down. The less likely you are to vote, the less likely you are to be politically engaged, the less likely you are to be paying attention, the less likely you are to hold anyone accountable. If nothing else, use your vote as approval or disapproval of the previous administration, or of each campaign. In the end your vote may be very important.


And when I disapprove of every campaign and every administration and every potential administration? When I fear Republicans for what they might do to this country and I fear Democrats for what they might do to Serbia (I know, it's probably irrational). How can I watch the fight between Obama and Clinton and think "hey the Democrats will do better than Republicans" the whole thing just makes me depressed.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Yeahduff on Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:33 am

Start writing your representative and senator about Serbia on a weekly basis. Hook up with a political action organization. Hell, start one online. Then go into that election booth and write-in a vote for Barney Rubble's ass.
Last edited by Yeahduff on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Dr Legostar on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:25 am

Yeahduff wrote:Start writing your representative and senator about Serbia on a weekly basis. Hook up with a political action organization. Hell, start one online. Then go into that election booth and write-in a vote for Christopher Nititham's ass.


How about protesting the bombings? I could do... oh.. wait.. we did that.. during the bombings. No one cared.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Yeahduff on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:41 am

The reality is you're not gonna win every battle. Maybe not most. But you do what you can and maybe something happens. It's better than just letting everyone else make the decisions.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Dr Legostar on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:45 am

Yeahduff wrote:The reality is you're not gonna win every battle. Maybe not most. But you do what you can and maybe something happens. It's better than just letting everyone else make the decisions.


You assuming "letting." You assume there really is a choice. I just don't believe that anymore.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Yeahduff on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:48 am

It's not an assumption. These people answer to us. Tell them what you want, and get others to do so.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Dr Legostar on Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:00 pm

Yeahduff wrote:It's not an assumption. These people answer to us. Tell them what you want, and get others to do so.


I want to think that's the case, I really do.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby McDuffies on Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:07 pm

"I'm going to sell out ethically and politically to vote for someone who I don't want running my country because he's (marginally) the lesser of two shitbags, so I can justify myself bitching about the other guy when he's in office"
The essence of democracy?

You have a strange definition of "selling out ethically and politically".
Selling out implies doing something for material or some other personal gain. What exactly do you gain from voting for lesser evil, unless officials from that party promised employment or money or something else to you personally? If you're voting for lesser evil because you think that he'll be at least marginally better for community, then that's not selling out any more than having a lunch is.

I wouldn't call this throwing away her vote. Throwing away her vote is helping a guy she doesn't want in office to get there, defeating the purpose of democracy.

You're making this an "is this glass half full or half empty" arguement. Where you put "helpng a guy she doesn't want in the office to get there" I can put "helping another guy she doesn't want in the office don't get there" and we could argue till tomorrow. But the fact is that if one guy is a lesser evil, then she'd rather have him in the office, even if marginally.

No. Vote for the person who you want running the country.

If you're waiting for some party that will be exactly to your taste, then good luck waiting forever.

It's like deciding if you'd rather have a kick in your teeth or nads.

By not voting, you aren't "avoiding the kick", you're just letting someone else decide where you're gonna be kicked. And if I was to be kicked anyways, I'd rather make the choice myself.

And when I disapprove of every campaign and every administration and every potential administration? When I fear Republicans for what they might do to this country and I fear Democrats for what they might do to Serbia (I know, it's probably irrational). How can I watch the fight between Obama and Clinton and think "hey the Democrats will do better than Republicans" the whole thing just makes me depressed.


You know that that's simplification. Democrats are the ones who made the decision about bombing simply because they were in the office at the time. This does not mean that Republicans, were they in the office, wouldn't make that decision - in fact from Iraqi experience we know that they would. And let's not forget that many other countries supported bombing, it was not a USA solo action like Iraqi. It was not a strictly USA Democratic party decision, many other factors entered into it and many people other than Democrat government officials participated in making that decision.

And if you accept that Democrats have better record in some other areas, then by not voting you are giving up right to choose how those other areas are going to be governed based on one issue where all parties would perform the same.

In any case, Democrats have proven that they can bomb a country provided that they have support of most powerful countries and major organizations. Republicans have proven that they can bomb and occupy a country even if they have dissaproval of almost every major country and organization.

Start writing your representative and senator about Serbia on a weekly basis. Hook up with a political action organization. Hell, start one online. Then go into that election booth and write-in a vote for Christopher Nititham's ass.

Indeed. Voting is not the only kind of political engagement. If you're really dissatisfied you have an opportunity of doing something through channels that are accessible to ordinary people. Politics is not just going out to election spot every two years and picking up a) or b). And it's certainly not a test where you have two answers offered, and you have to pick the right one of you'll flunk.

Vote for third party if you think that they're ok. Third parties are kept away from political influence by "you're throwing away your vote" maketing, because many people who would vote for such parties end up not voting. See those votes usually aren't enough to make third party win outright, but they are enough to strengthen it's position so that it can potentially win some future elections or at least get coalition potential in future. The political picture is not set in stone, not even in USA.

You assuming "letting." You assume there really is a choice. I just don't believe that anymore.

Maybe you're right, and then maybe you aren't. If you give up on your right to choose yourself, then you're definitely right.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Eve Z. on Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:31 pm

My mom's crazy.
Today, after we came back home, my parents started to argue about money and such stuff. She started it, again, I don't know how, but I started to hear them shout at each other. Arguments in my family are something very common since two years or so. Usually the main subject is each other's parents - My grand parents. Mom can't stand my grandma and each time dad wants to go visit his parents, flames of hell are coming out of it. She starts to insult him, he fights back and so on. I can't stand to hear them and I'm trying my best to stay out of it. This, until one of them comes and starts to complain about the other, what a monstruosity they married! Mom mostly rants about how dad isn't helping her at all and never does anything for her, that he's a lazy bastard who dates women or drinks with 'low-class' dudes when he isn't home. Dad on the other side, kind of struggles not to involve me in this shit.
And this shit started to affect my life. Last week, dad went to see his parents for holiday. I wanted to go to... with all my heart. but the night before, as I mentioned already, fight! After the fight, mom came and told me to do her a favour: 'don't go to his parents! Let that woman miss you, I want to teach her a lesson.' I kind of felt sorry, but I half-accepted. The next morning, granny called to ask me when I will arrive and I had to tell her that I wasn't going and not being less than honest I also told her that I didn't have a choice. Mom overheard it and started to shout at me and call me names, for saying what I just said! it was true. I started to cry and she continued that she will move away to another country, she will divorce and stop giving a fuck about me or dad. This things affect me alot and she knows this. It's her way of manipulating me! I'm afraid of her reaction, because I know she's not sane and when she shows it I freak out. As we were in the car, with one of her friends she started rambling again about going to Germany and how we don't appreciate her and I started to cry again and she didn't give a fuck about it. If she thinks this is a way to drag me on her side, then she's terribly wrong.
The other day she told me that She would Like Me To Own A Fashion House and SHE Will Assist And help Me With Clients. I thought about it. This is the thing I'm avoiding the most. working with my mom? I'm trying to grow a distance. I'm trying to get away as much as I can from the baby position she sees me in.

Okay, and here they were tonight: mom and dad again arguing and as usual, I stood aside and tried to ignore them.I wasn't listening to them, I was drawing for the job I applied, until dad came and said: "come here and listen to what your mom has just said about you! She says she will teach you how to hate me! She will make you hate me! She wants you to stay as much as you can with her, just to make you think the way she does!" I kind of freezed. Just who or what does she think I am??? I have a mind and a judgement of my own and I can tell who is right and who is wrong and I know mom is.
Then she came over to my room and asked me a hard question: "Did I force you to go with me back then, or asked you to help me? Answer me!" extremely easy, but at the same time, extremely hard. And I said, 'I dunno, I don't want to answer this now, because I have to finish drawing'. I didn't want to be honest, or a liar. I just can't be honest around her! Lucky with dad who came and picked her away. My grand parents aren't that bad, maybe a bit weird, but not bad at all. And this situation is not a matter of life and death, only her ego-inflatus ambition. If I go to see them she thinks I went to their side and this means I hate her and she starts acting nasty around me, that I'm being so bad and I betrayed her. And I hate it when someone treats me with dispise when I've done nothing wrong, but my own will.
She is the one who always starts the fights, She's the one who tried to ruin the relationships with my best friend because she thinks I'm gay and urges me to find a boyfriend as soon as possible because she would like to see me married with a man one day. She thinks she knows what's good for me, but she fails to understand the difference between happiness and what others tell you happiness is.
Also, she's very nosy and tries to discover my tiniest secret.
I don't wanna marry. ever. because of people like her and others I know.

Why can't I have a Normal Family?

too much rant. if someone reads it they're free to do it.
I spit it all out.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby KWill on Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:33 pm

Eve Z. wrote:Why can't I have a Normal Family?

Because they don't exist.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Mvmarcz on Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:40 pm

To everyone telling me vote for the one I disagree with the least, I'm sorry I can't do that. I am going to be the American I was raised to be and support America the way I think it should be. And I think the "lesser of two evils" policy that is being proposed to me is worse than not voting. By abstaining I am casting my "none of the above" vote. I don't usually complain anyway...not about one person. For instance I never say things like "Bush ruined this country" It's not all on one person. The issues I care most about have been pretty much ignored. I've tried to contact parties to get answers and all I get is party spam. I'm a very non involved individual but I had decided to vote this year for the first time and was pretty much disgusted by what I found. So I'm just going to insert my head back into the sand, resume keeping my mouth shut, and pray that whoever is chosen to lead this country decides to support arts in schools so I can actually get work after spending so much time and money getting a degree. But with all this homeschooling and up the math and science score crap I doubt it's going to happen. :(
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Laemkral on Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:17 pm

Tim wrote:
Laemkral wrote:I love my mom. Just told her about my deployment to Iraq and she took it well. As well as a mother CAN take hearing that her son is being sent into a warzone.

Then again, your mom's probably been mentally preparing for this news ever since your decision to enlist.


Once again, for the benefit of those of you who don't know the difference (which seems to be the entirety of America not in the military or related to someone who is):

I did not enlist. I am not enlisted in the United States Army, or any army for that matter. I am, however, an OFFICER who was given a COMMISSION by the President of the United States. Hence the term, commissioned officer, as opposed to a NON-Commissioned Officer (NCO) who is an enlisted person of the rank of Corporal or higher.

For those of you who may ask, "What's the difference? Why is it a big deal?", the answer is simple. I did not take an Oath of Enlistment, which includes the phrase "that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the Officers appointed over me", instead I was appointed to my position as an officer. The significance of the lack of that phrase in my Oath of Office is that I am not here to blindly follow and accept what I'm told to do. Not only am I encouraged to question and think for myself, I am duty bound to do so by my role as an Officer and leader of Soldiers.

It irks me when people mix up enlisting and accepting a commission. Most people don't know because that's how society and culture have taught us, that you join up by enlisting. So I try to not get upset when people mix the two up, because its a common mistake, but I wasn't simply accepted into the Army because I passed a physical and signed the dotted line. I had to earn my place, and it's something I'm proud of.



Anyways. Mv, I highly encourage you to go vote on November 4th because of all the other things on the ballot that pertain to your local and state government. Maybe you're fed up with how things are at the federal level, but you have so much more power at the state level, and even more in local government. Even if all you do for President is write in Porky Pig, if you cast your ballot on the other issues then you've helped make a difference.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Mercury Hat on Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:31 pm

My one problem with the restaurant analogy is in MV's case it's not "i could go to either restaurant (candidate) but don't want to pick" it's "I hate both restaurants (candidates)".

In this case there's two restaurants (candidates) in town (the election), one always gives you stomach cramps and the other gives you blow-out food poisoning but it's your best friend of ten million years birthday (election day) and everyone ELSE is going out. Not going (leaving the country) is not an option because you'll look like a giant tool.

So what ends up happening is you either pick the one that only gives you stomach cramps (vote for the guy you hate less) and eat the food there or you go with what the others pick (don't vote) and don't eat anything there and wish you could have had a house party and ordered pizza (RON PAUL 08).

Or you move to Canada (move to Canada) I guess.

And I never said I was abstaining from voting, I just understand the motivations behind MV and others' choice.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Tim on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:12 pm

My apologies, Laemkral...a poor choice of words on my part, especially considering I'm not that familiar with your background.

Still, my point remains valid. I think. I don't know your mom, either.

I'm sure there's some kind of "your mom...last night!" joke there, but I'm not going there.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Laemkral on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:28 pm

Tim wrote:My apologies, Laemkral...a poor choice of words on my part, especially considering I'm not that familiar with your background.

Still, my point remains valid. I think. I don't know your mom, either.

I'm sure there's some kind of "your mom...last night!" joke there, but I'm not going there.


Oh yes, valid point. "you accepted your commission" rather than "you enlisted" would have made it quite true. She's been dreading it for some time now. I just simply wanted to take the opportunity to enlighten people to the difference between Officers and Enlisted.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Pimpette on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:31 pm

Every so often I take out the pair of glasses I got in.. what.. grade seven.. and wear them and walk around and look at things.
Stopped wearing them way back when because they gave me headaches... still kind of do.

I can't explain precisely how different it is seeing things through them.
It's not just that my vision is better, sharper (zomg I can see things properly with my left eye), but more that it's... I don't know. Things seem to move differently. Suddenly I have depth perception (you laugh, I have none). I can't explain it. Suddenly instead of everything looking vaguely soft and close together, everything has its own space, and is more sharply defined.
They still give me a headache.

Unfortunately, vision's starting to get crappy enough that I'd like to get another eye test and buy some new glasses - like, if I want to be able to drive and see road signs without yelling "HAY TAVIS WHATS THAT SIGN SAY" (which I do frequently) (I shake my fist at you 20/20+ people). I'll have to take my chances with the headaches.


As for the vote debate.. I'm not sure how it works elsewhere but I know here you can walk into a polling station and tell them that you refuse your ballot, and your dissatisfaction with all parties will be recorded and counted. I know it feels like it doesn't help, but it's better than simply sitting back and ignoring the whole process - which you certainly have a right to do. Personally I feel that if I'm pissed off about how much all the running parties suck ass, I want that fact to be recorded somewhere.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Laemkral on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:39 pm

Mercury Hat wrote:My one problem with the restaurant analogy is in MV's case it's not "i could go to either restaurant (candidate) but don't want to pick" it's "I hate both restaurants (candidates)".

In this case there's two restaurants (candidates) in town (the election), one always gives you stomach cramps and the other gives you blow-out food poisoning but it's your best friend of ten million years birthday (election day) and everyone ELSE is going out. Not going (leaving the country) is not an option because you'll look like a giant tool.

So what ends up happening is you either pick the one that only gives you stomach cramps (vote for the guy you hate less) and eat the food there or you go with what the others pick (don't vote) and don't eat anything there and wish you could have had a house party and ordered pizza (RON PAUL 08).

Or you move to Canada (move to Canada) I guess.

And I never said I was abstaining from voting, I just understand the motivations behind MV and others' choice.


I'd go to the place that gives me stomach cramps so that the place with the crappier food notices they're not getting business (votes) and realizes they gotta change their menu (policies) if they want to attract customers (constituents). And I'd do it through the local business (local government) because change starts at home (starts at home).

A lot of Republicans have become disenfranchised with their party, hence the relative huge popularity Ron Paul had. Things like that are significant. Maybe not in this election, but it's stuff like that which can be the fuel for change. I bet the number of people who are all "well crap, my vote doesn't matter because I hate both choices so I won't vote cause going third party or whatever is meaningless" is enough people that if you all actually DID vote and voted third party...that it'd be significant and noticeable and might just give third parties the balls to stand up to the two party system and try to take some seats in the house or senate or try harder on the state/local level.

Which is kinda what Pimpette said. If all the people who were so dissatisfied that they refuse to participate...participated, maybe you'd get the change you want. But since you refuse to participate, tough noogies.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Killbert-Robby on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:46 pm

Laemkral wrote:
Mercury Hat wrote:My one problem with the restaurant analogy is in MV's case it's not "i could go to either restaurant (candidate) but don't want to pick" it's "I hate both restaurants (candidates)".

In this case there's two restaurants (candidates) in town (the election), one always gives you stomach cramps and the other gives you blow-out food poisoning but it's your best friend of ten million years birthday (election day) and everyone ELSE is going out. Not going (leaving the country) is not an option because you'll look like a giant tool.

So what ends up happening is you either pick the one that only gives you stomach cramps (vote for the guy you hate less) and eat the food there or you go with what the others pick (don't vote) and don't eat anything there and wish you could have had a house party and ordered pizza (RON PAUL 08).

Or you move to Canada (move to Canada) I guess.

And I never said I was abstaining from voting, I just understand the motivations behind MV and others' choice.


I'd go to the place that gives me stomach cramps so that the place with the crappier food notices they're not getting business (votes) and realizes they gotta change their menu (policies) if they want to attract customers (constituents). And I'd do it through the local business (local government) because change starts at home (starts at home).


But in the same logic, the restaurant you went to decides FUCKIT, LOOK, PEOPLE CAME HERE SO WE'RE DOING FINE and nothing changes, even though you really dont like the place.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby McDuffies on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:56 pm

I will post only one more thing regarding the voting/not voting issue and then shut up. I feel like repeating one thing I said because it might have been burried under the ton of other stuff I said.

Going to elections and invalidating your form sends a clearer protest message than not appearing on elections. Just like how Rkolter leaves a tip of 1 cent to bad waiters: if you go to elections and invalidate, that means you're interested in elections but choose not to pick either candidate. If you stay at home, that may be interpreted as if you're not interested in elections at all, and by law it gets interpreted that way. Poor attendance of elections might mean repeating of elections, but it doesn't shake any foundation. A massive amount of invalid votes would be a clearer signal that something is wrong.
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